189 replies to this topic

[Wiggy]

V4TTEL today grabbed his 4th in a row, and on the BBC we saw a message from the mighty Michael Schumacher who'd taken time out from saving stray dogs in order to congradulate Seb.

 

I remember watching Schumacher notch up his seemingly (at the time) unstoppable run of records, and the script at the time was always that we were seeing 'a one off' and it wouldn't be repeated in our lifetime. Sebs still a young lad and reading between the lines of a BBC interview he gave today, he might be in F1 for another 10+ years.

 

How many of Schu's records will Vettel trounce? And could he perhaps become V8TT8L and becomes the greatest of all time?

[Shiroo]

It isn't matter of "if" he can do that.

Only when.

[P0inters]

It depends on when Newey retires or when he moves team , and which team he moves to. If he ends up with a teammate like Hamilton or Alonso , then he may only win  a title or two against them , but then again he could be driving Newey cars against Ricciardo for the rest of his career. 

[SenorSjon]

V4TTEL today grabbed his 4th in a row, and on the BBC we saw a message from the mighty Michael Schumacher who'd taken time out from saving stray dogs in order to congradulate Seb.

 

I remember watching Schumacher notch up his seemingly (at the time) unstoppable run of records, and the script at the time was always that we were seeing 'a one off' and it wouldn't be repeated in our lifetime. Sebs still a young lad and reading between the lines of a BBC interview he gave today, he might be in F1 for another 10+ years.

 

How many of Schu's records will Vettel trounce? And could he perhaps become V8TT8L and becomes the greatest of all time?

With the set of rules Schumacher competed, that streak will not be done again. It took some ridiculous rules to stop him, or he had won '05 and possibly '06 as well. Now you can hardly do anything about a dominant team. RB just is the best team in the '09-'13 rule set. Mario Kart F1 as you will.

[Ellios]

Vettel will eclipse all of Michael Schumacher's records by the end of his F1 career, be it at Red Bull, Ferrari or wherever 

[cartmann]

Vettel will eclipse all of Michael Schumacher's records by the end of his F1 career, be it at Red Bull, Ferrari or wherever 

Vettel will eclipse all of your inflated opinions of him and fail to achieve the remarkable results he does now.

[SR388]

Ve11el

Edited by SR388, 27 October 2013 - 15:59.

[Nonesuch]

It all depends on the hardware these guys get to work with. Look where winning five titles in a row got Schumacher in 2005.

[Silvercheese]

I seem to remember a certain Alonso and Hamilton getting the same hype before their current dry spell. If he does it he does it but it still has to happen first.

[topical]

His success is 100% down to the car. If he keeps getting dominant cars he can win 10 championships. Put him in a midfield team like Williams and he'll be lucky to get the odd podium. F1 is nearly all car, but the media engage in the conspiracy to pretend the drivers are what count, because that's what the public are interested in.

[f1RacingForever]

Think the wins record is out of reach but 7 wdc's is very possibe. Alot will depend on the quality of cars he will have from now on. It's unlikely the cars in the coming years will match the dominance of the cars he's had, but with adrian newey anything is possible. Managment has given him liberty over the technical side of things which is dangerous for other teams.

[ensign14]

With the set of rules Schumacher competed, that streak will not be done again. It took some ridiculous rules to stop him, or he had won '05 and possibly '06 as well.

It took ridiculous rules to ensure it happened, like banning every technological development McLaren came up with, forcing Michelin to change their tyres at the point where it not merely destroyed the 2003 season but buggered up everyone else's cars for 2004 as well, inventing ludicrous penalties for anyone who dared to challenge Schumacher while overlooking his serial punting off of the opposition...

A lot depends on what Renault come up with next season. If the engine doesn't have the poke, his current run will stop. But what it is doing is putting Schumacher's record runs into context. People are not giving Vettel the respect for being a 4-time champ because of the car's advantage, the lack of a decent team-mate and so on; the same can be applied to Schumacher as well, only with the added advantage of no top-drawer competing drivers between Hakkinen and Alonso.

[Kyo]

How many threads of Vettel breaking Schumi's records we already got this year?

[sennafan24]

I believe he has the talent, it all depends on the regulations and what team he has around him.

 

2014 could be the year we find out, or maybe even what move he makes when his RB contract is up.

[Jackmancer]

How many threads of Vettel breaking Schumi's records we already got this year?

 

Surely another record for the young German.

[George Costanza]

As a Schumacher fan, I think he can do that as for as the number of WDC(s). But, as with F1, we know it goes in cycles with dominant periods changing over.

 

But as for as the greatest of all time? I do not believe anyone is taking Ayrton's name from that title holder.

[apoka]

But what it is doing is putting Schumacher's record runs into context. People are not giving Vettel the respect for being a 4-time champ because of the car's advantage, the lack of a decent team-mate and so on; the same can be applied to Schumacher as well, only with the added advantage of no top-drawer competing drivers between Hakkinen and Alonso.

 

I think this is not doing MS justice. He was possibly the best F1 driver ever. Just because he had dominating years, you cannot ignore what he has achieved.

 

In addition, I think it's not correct to state "people are not giving Vettel the respect for being a 4-time champ" as a fact. Some people don't give him respect, but I think most do.

 

About team mates: Webber is/was considered a decent driver, who just had no top machinery.

[George Costanza]

I seem to remember a certain Alonso and Hamilton getting the same hype before their current dry spell. If he does it he does it but it still has to happen first.

 

Of the world champions in the past 10 years, Fernando Alonso has gotten bad luck threw his way more often after winning in '05 and '06.

[OvDrone]

Why not VET13L?

[sennafan24]

 

But as for as the greatest of all time? I do not believe anyone is taking Ayrton's name from that title holder.

Agreed, for myself Ayrton Senna is still the greatest driver to have ever lived

 

But it is different era's and different times. The sport that our "greatest" raced in, is a lot different from the sport Vettel raced in. I have grown to admire different aspects of both era's, and the differing types of greatness Vettel, Schumi, Prost and Ayrton offered.

 

Its hard to compare directly really given the different landscapes and circumstances.

[George Costanza]

Agreed, for myself Ayrton Senna is still the greatest driver to have ever lived

 

But it is different era's and different times. The sport that our "greatest" raced in, is a lot different from the sport Vettel raced in. I have grown to admire different aspects of both era's, and the differing types of greatness Vettel, Schumi, Prost and Ayrton offered.

 

Its hard to compare directly really given the different landscapes and circumstances.

 

This... Very well said. 

[sennafan24]

This... Very well said. 

Thanks man 

 

But on this very day, F1 belongs to one man and his name is Seb Vettel. 

[Wander]

53845714N V37731

 

Yeah, I can't think of any numbers for N and V

Edited by Wander, 27 October 2013 - 17:50.

[stanga]

V3333333333tt444l is just so l33t.

[Jackmancer]

On a different note: how many more titles would Fangio have won had he got started aged 19, as Vettel did, instead of age 39?

[windy1603]

If everything is true about next year then all of the dodgy engine mapping/blowing/cylinder cutting from Renault will be a thing of the past and he may not end up in the best car and may look quite ordinary or he could then show it's not the car. 

 

I hope that Renault do not get all the usual help from the FIA with the *cough* engine equalisation as in the past and the last few races have shown that there is something with the maps that cannot be copied by others due to the new map rule introduced when they got caught out and forced to use an old map and FIA could not ban it as they had allowed RB to run I for the best part of a year

[LuckyStrike1]

And breathe. 

 

I got a few spare . over by the way. 

Edited by LuckyStrike1, 27 October 2013 - 18:35.

[scheivlak]

On a different note: how many more titles would Fangio have won had he got started aged 19, as Vettel did, instead of age 39?

He started age 23 with some long distance races.

Of course the WDC competition only started when he was already 39, so there was not much chance for him to win more titles before that.

[BobbyRicky]

His success is 100% down to the car. If he keeps getting dominant cars he can win 10 championships. Put him in a midfield team like Williams and he'll be lucky to get the odd podium. F1 is nearly all car, but the media engage in the conspiracy to pretend the drivers are what count, because that's what the public are interested in.

 

100% down to the car? How many WDC's does Webber have again?

[chrcol]

I know sky annoyed the hell out of me today, spent half their buildup talking about how great he is and then asked all the drivers they interviewed to give praise to him.

[mnmracer]

I know sky annoyed the hell out of me today, spent half their buildup talking about how great he is and then asked all the drivers they interviewed to give praise to him.

God forbid a champion gets praised.

[Wander]

On a different note: how many more titles would Fangio have won had he got started aged 19, as Vettel did, instead of age 39?

 

 

He started age 23 with some long distance races.

Of course the WDC competition only started when he was already 39, so there was not much chance for him to win more titles before that.

 

also, even if he had been in his early 20s in 1950 and already as good as he was at 40, the amount of championships would still have been dependent on which year he suffered a career ending crash. So the answer is between 5 and who knows how many.

[Forma1]

It all depends on Newey. He built Seb four dominant car. Adrian has been working hard on giving Seb another dominant car. He will need a good Renault engine though.

[bourbon]

I know sky annoyed the hell out of me today, spent half their buildup talking about how great he is and then asked all the drivers they interviewed to give praise to him.

 

He's just become a 4 time WDC - youngest ever.  Should the sport just ignore that fact and go on its merry way as if achievements in F1 racing are meaningless?  How would that possibly be good promotion for the sport?

 

I have said dozens of times that driving well in a poorly performing car or against a WDC teammate or under the auspices of mediocre engineers is not how points are awarded or the cup is earned in this sport.  You win races and the points add up, and you win the cup, that is the ONLY criteria we have in this sport.  So when a driver/car manages it, that is what must be promoted as the ultimate achievement in our great sport.  Fans can use BB's to discuss all of the rest.

 

This thread's relevance is that beating or matching or even coming near Michael's 7 WDCs means that Sebastian has achieved that which this sport is founded on - winning race results. 

[Forma1]

He's just become a 4 time WDC - youngest ever.  Should the sport just ignore that fact and go on its merry way as if achievements in F1 racing are meaningless?  How would that possibly be good promotion for the sport?

 

I have said dozens of times that driving well in a poorly performing car or against a WDC teammate or under the auspices of mediocre engineers is not how points are awarded or the cup is earned in this sport.  You win races and the points add up, and you win the cup, that is the ONLY criteria we have in this sport.  So when a driver/car manages it, that is what must be promoted as the ultimate achievement in our great sport.  Fans can use BB's to discuss all of the rest.

 

This thread's relevance is that beating or matching or even coming near Michael's 7 WDCs means that Sebastian has achieved that which this sport is founded on - winning race results. 

It annoyed me as well. He is getting so much praise for having the best car. Why not praising Hülkenberg or Bianchi or Alonso (Spa - the best driver this year, not just from him, but from all drivers).
I will be a bit sarcastic: Why not praising Newey for 3/4 of the coverage?

[El_Rápido]

I think Seb will win another 2-3 WDC and then move on to Ferrari with probably 6-7 WDC under his belt and not a worry in the world.

 

Seb has become Adrian Newey's third testicle. 

Edited by El_Rápido, 27 October 2013 - 19:54.

[bourbon]

It annoyed me as well. He is getting so much praise for having the best car. Why not praising Hülkenberg or Bianchi or Alonso (Spa - the best driver this year, not just from him, but from all drivers).
I will be a bit sarcastic: Why not praising Newey for 3/4 of the coverage?

 

He became youngest ever 4 time WDC today.  He deserved the praise. 

 

The driver's agreed - they were very gracious and did not declar they were annoyed for not being praised today. 

Edited by bourbon, 27 October 2013 - 20:26.

[statsguy]

Hi All,

 

I have attempted to compare Vettel and Schumacher's careers using the pre-2010 points system (10 points for win, 8 for second, etc)

Keeping in mind Seb has had the benefit of more races per season, he is still doing a good job. An average of 80points, a somewhat modest target, per season in future would put him on track to overtake Schuey's points record.

 

Will be interesting to project Vettel's points with a more realistic model - will be doing this soon.

 

Thanks,

 

Edited by statsguy, 27 October 2013 - 20:37.

[Forma1]

He became youngest ever 4 time WDC today.  He deserved the praise. 

 

The driver's agreed - they were very gracious and did not declar they were annoyed for not being praised today. 

You won't be 4 time WDC without talent. He deserved a day of celebration. It still hurts me Alonso only has two titles, Ham only one single title. I will get over it. Now I am studying four foreign languages, so I am pretty busy and since lot of motorsport series have already reached their end, I will watch lots of old races of different series over the winter. So I will stop whining about it. But at the moment it still hurts like hell he... yeah, he has got so dominant car. Despite living in Germany I don't buy this hype around him and In hang on Fernando. But yeah, he did a solid job to get the most out of the car at his disposal.

[Borko]

If he gets car like RB9 every year, he can win the title in all the seasons until the end of his career. You never know. Maybe he'll win 5-6 more titles or maybe this is his last title. Time will tell.

[Raven8]

Is this really important ?

[apoka]

Is this really important ?

 

Statistics do not mean everything and need proper evaluation, but they are important. After all, its the ultimate goal of drivers to win races and championships - they work for several years to get there. 

[sennafan24]

Statistics do not mean everything and need proper evaluation, but they are important. After all, its the ultimate goal of drivers to win races and championships - they work for several years to get there. 

Pretty much this, like I said I am quality guy, now a raw quantity guy when it comes to achievement.

 

And like I have said elsewhere, I see a lot of quality in Seb's 2013 so the stats and results do count for a lot this year for myself in how I evaluate Seb as a driver.

[Raven8]

Statistics do not mean everything and need proper evaluation, but they are important. After all, its the ultimate goal of drivers to win races and championships - they work for several years to get there. 

But it does not really matter if it are 4 ,5, 2 or 10. It's always the most recent result/ race wich counts.

& tomorrow it's done & dusted what happened today

Edited by Raven8, 27 October 2013 - 22:08.

[rhukkas]

The answer lies within the ink of Newey's ball point pen.

[Andrew Hope]

And in the effort and sweat of the hundreds of other people who are responsible for Vettel's wins.

[Forma1]

As for your discuss which vale statistics have, I copy and paste my earlier post:

And what about today? Their biggest problem was that Kimi clinched the fastest lap from Seb. I can imagine Seb whining and crying the whole night long about it. I am really waiting a time when Seb has bigger issues then choosing the latest helmet design or setting the fastest times at the end of the races: when he has to drive his a## out to get a 5th place on the grid as Alonso had to do in recent years or when he has to fight like hell to keep tyre deg under control like the Mercedes guys had to do earlier. Real racing and fight: when Seb is forced to do that and if he is able to master even in those times, than yeah, everyone will say he is doing a superb job.

[apoka]

As for your discuss which vale statistics have, I copy and paste my earlier post:

And what about today? Their biggest problem was that Kimi clinched the fastest lap from Seb. I can imagine Seb whining and crying the whole night long about it. I am really waiting a time when Seb has bigger issues then choosing the latest helmet design or setting the fastest times at the end of the races: when he has to drive his a## out to get a 5th place on the grid as Alonso had to do in recent years or when he has to fight like hell to keep tyre deg under control like the Mercedes guys had to do earlier. Real racing and fight: when Seb is forced to do that and if he is able to master even in those times, than yeah, everyone will say he is doing a superb job.

 

In the first part of the season, he probably didn't have the best car and maximized his results.

[apoka]

But it does not really matter if it are 4 ,5, 2 or 10. It's always the most recent result/ race wich counts.

& tomorrow it's done & dusted what happened today

 

I think it does matter, especially 2 or 10 is a huge difference. Maybe you are only as good as your last race now, but when a career is finished and people look back at what you have achieved, then wins and titles will play a big role. I'm not saying that it is all that matters - a 3x WDC may still be rated higher than a 5x WDC if there are good reasons.

[Boxerevo]

Ve11el

I don't doubt.

 

But Vettel next year will be my limit.

Edited by Boxerevo, 28 October 2013 - 07:40.