189 replies to this topic

[Forma1]

I realize with great sadness some of you are totally blown away with Seb's performance which is clearly masked by RB's superior cars from year to year.

 

I am a fan of Alonso, but yeah, I can admit Lewis can be better than him at times, cos he has a magical talent and I am pretty sure Lewis is very hat to be beaten on tracks like Canada, Hungary, Abu-Dhabi, It is very rare that a driver has tracks which he is the best of all on.

 

As for comparison: you claim Vettel could do the very same as Lewis in Silverstone. By this standard I say Alonso or Ham could have the very same Vettel has done so far this year. Honestly, I don't dare to say it, but I dare to say Vettel has had an easy time for four years. I can't say any more.

Edited by Forma1, 30 October 2013 - 14:02.

[Diablobb81]

 By this standard I say Alonso or Ham could have the very same Vettel has done so far this year. Honestly, I don't dare to say it, but I dare to say Vettel has had an easy time for four years. I can't say any more.

 

Sometimes it's just better to stop posting.

[MikeV1987]

 

I am a fan of Alonso, but yeah,

 

Now I get it.

[Winter98]

One exception is Mansell and Piquet. One won 1 title and is seen by many as better than the other who won 3.

 

Personally, I think they were quite even.

Good point.

 

But as I said, exceptions include drivers who earned at least part of their rep outside of F1.  Mansell won CART (in his first year I believe?).

[1Devil1]

Sometimes it's just better to stop posting.

 

no logic at all, he can say Vettel had an easy route, but the other way round it's false. Vettel is a beast at Suzuka, Asian tracks, Hamilton has his favored tracks, and you can bet on it he will be there, maybe getting pole, but don't know what is different to Vettel or Alonso. Driver excel more on one or another track, that's the nature of racing, you have seen that with Schumcher, even after his prime, he was quit good around Canada, SPA or Suzuka, he absolutely loved those tracks.. 

[sennafan24]

Good point.

 

But as I said, exceptions include drivers who earned at least part of their rep outside of F1.  Mansell won CART (in his first year I believe?).

Ah yes good point.

 

Mansell did do quite well head to head as teammates against Piquet, so that could factor in also. I think relative performance is something that holds weight, for example what is held more in merit, Senna's 1993 or Prost's 1993? 

[Winter98]

I sadly consider some of you are totally blown away with Seb's performance which is clearly masked by RB's superior cars from year to year.

 

I am a fan of Alonso, but yeah, I can admit Lewis can be better than him at times, cos he has a magical talent and I am pretty sure Lewis is very hat to be beaten on tracks like Canada, Hungary, Abu-Dhabi, It is very rare that a driver has tracks which he is the best of all on.

 

As for comparison: you claim Vettel could do the very same as Lewis in Silverstone. By this standard I say Alonso or Ham could have the very same Vettel has done so far this year. Honestly, I don't dare to say it, but I dare to say Vettel has had an easy time for four years. I can't say any more.

You are entitled to your beliefs.  And if the situtation was reversed, I'm betting we would be using each other's arguments. 

 

We Vettel supporters are lucky enough to have 4xWDCs on the trot on our side, and we're going to use that fact. 

[mnmracer]

As for comparison: you claim Vettel could do the very same as Lewis in Silverstone.

You mean lead the race with another car behind and your team-mate in 3rd, well ahead of the team-mate of the car behind?

[Winter98]

Ah yes good point.

 

Mansell did do quite well head to head as teammates against Piquet, so that could factor in also. I think relative performance is something that holds weight, for example what is held more in merit, Senna's 1993 or Prost's 1993? 

LOL, tough question. 

 

I watched those seasons (For Canadians, the Dark Time ended sometime in the late 80's, and F1 races were finally broadcast.), but that was a long time ago, and beyond my accurate memory.  After reading arguments from both side's supporters, they were awfully close.  In the end both Prost and Senna won their championships, which is what you would expect from two exceptional drivers.

[sennafan24]

 In the end both Prost and Senna won their championships, which is what you would expect from two exceptional drivers.

 

I was just judging on who was more impressive in 1993, in general if someone says to me they thought Prost was better, I will disagree but its not like I would think it was a absurd statement.

[LuckyStrike1]

We will have to discuss this season when we get a chance in another thread 

 

Yeah, it's probably the Nostalgia forum at this point. 

[garagetinkerer]

 

 

You are a clever guy, that's my impression from your comments, but it is much easier to get the speed from the superb RB than from the Mercedes. When RB weren't on top their game, Vettel was stuggling - Australia, China and Barcelona. Was Lewis inconsistent at times? Yes, cos his car was undriveable at some races when it ate up the tyres just after a few laps. When did Seb have the same problem? Never ever. Even when his RB wasn't dominant it was good enough to deliver a nice tidy result. You can claim Webber ... yeah, Webber didn't get the same result, why there was load of tactical, reliability issues with him (China - double trouble from RB on tactical and pit tops side), but even Webbo had a nice speed at every weekend, yeah, he keeps on messing up his starts, that's the only stuff he has to improve.

Just came to my mind: Lewis was a class of his own in Silverstone till his tyre failure, I dare to say the drives he showed at Silverstone and Hungary couldn't be repeated by Vettel or anyone on the grid.

 

Perhaps what you don't know about my friend sennafan24 is that he is a big fan of Lewis Hamilton (hint, look at his avatar!)... as big as they come (and certainly a lot more intelligent than some!).

 

So what did Hamilton do that day? Flawlessly lead from pole and manage gap, like Vettel has done for so many victories, and quite imperiously so! I get you... Double standards 5! 

 

edit: man... i'm failing at grammar quite spectacularly today. i need to sleep more

Edited by garagetinkerer, 30 October 2013 - 18:44.

[mnmracer]

So what did Hamilton do that day? Flawlessly lead from pole and manage gap, like Vettel has done for so many victories, and quite imperiously so! I get you... Double standards 5! 

2 seconds (4 to his team-mate) in 7 laps is a "class of his own" these days to some people.

[garagetinkerer]

One exception is Mansell and Piquet. One won 1 title and is seen by many as better than the other who won 3.

 

Personally, I think they were quite even.

With this my friend, i wholeheartedly disagree...

 

Piquet Snr. is one of the most underrated drivers ever in F1. His 3 titles came when there were Prost, Lauda etc. racing... Mansell was good, no doubt, but equal or better than Piquet Snr.? Hell no! Certaily not before Piquet's crash in '86 (IIRC)

 

@1devil1

pm'd

 

_______________________________________

 

on topic...

 

i think what many forget is that each driver has his own strengths and weaknesses, so assessing them in different cars with different traits is going to be very difficult. on that line of thought, if someone suggests that Hamilton and Alonso could replicate and do one better than Vettel in a RBR, it is just speculation. Webber seems properly unable to do so weekends in weekends out... so what tells one that Alonso and Hamilton would do more? Similarly, i would not make a bold claim and say that Vettel could do what they did in their respective cars... there's just no way to tell if the car will suit the driver, or not! I mean look at McLaren's 2012... one driver was winning and looking unassailable, but the other driver when car didn't suit him, looked like absolutely second rate. However, it is important to remember that the car didn't suit him at the time, and if a driver doesn't feel comfortable in the car, well, chances are he/ she wouldn't get most out of it. Nothing too hard to guess.

 

As i said earlier, only a fool would bet against Vettel winning more races/ titles. He certainly will be one with the most race wins and WDC of this generation, if not of all times and that is just a matter of fact. No matter how much dislike one has for what he has achieved, one must be able to notice how he decimated his team mate... 2011, 2012, and now 2013... he has left Webber trailing with more than 100 points each season and this year it is looking rather ominous (i think Vettel may shame Webbo proper!).

Edited by garagetinkerer, 30 October 2013 - 18:37.

[DarthWillie]

. I can't say any more.

finally 

 

 

 

having just read Newey is planning to stay this dream team, with great driver and great designer might just take Schumi's/Brawn/Byrne's record

 

creating the right enviroment is also a strength only the greats have.

[SCUDmissile]

Why not? Schumi won his third title in his 30s, while Seb has won his 4th at 25(?)

 

Impressive as hell, if RedBull keep this up, the guy might actually get to double figures.

[Winter98]

 

I was just judging on who was more impressive in 1993, in general if someone says to me they thought Prost was better, I will disagree but its not like I would think it was a absurd statement.

To be honest, that was so long ago I can only remember bits and pieces of that season.   None of my friends follow F1, so I never had a chance to discuss past events until I joined this forum.

 

Now, if we were going to discuss the 1993 Montreal Canadiens, I'm there. 

[Nitropower]

If no significant change in the regulations takes place then yes he can win as many has 15 championships if you ask me. As long as he has the "head-and-shoulders" best car of the grid there's no way anyone's gonna get close to clinching the title. Only Alonso was close and mostly because of overperforming/good luck. In this sport more than in any other sport, if you have the best tools, you are supposed to win. If any other top driver had these tools they'd be winning, it's very simple as much as some people try to divinify their idols. When Vettel didn't have the best car, he didn't shine at all, same goes for the others. You're not gonna win the championship with a car that's 0,8 secs slower than 3 or 4 cars no matter how good you are.

[EthanM]

If no significant change in the regulations takes place then yes he can win as many has 15 championships if you ask me. As long as he has the "head-and-shoulders" best car of the grid there's no way anyone's gonna get close to clinching the title. Only Alonso was close and mostly because of overperforming/good luck. In this sport more than in any other sport, if you have the best tools, you are supposed to win. If any other top driver had these tools they'd be winning, it's very simple as much as some people try to divinify their idols. When Vettel didn't have the best car, he didn't shine at all, same goes for the others. You're not gonna win the championship with a car that's 0,8 secs slower than 3 or 4 cars no matter how good you are.

 

 

When Vettel in a Torro Rosso scores more than the sum of both Red Bull drivers he's not really shining. In fact it's a proven fact only Alonso can "outdrive" the car.

 

Let me give you helping hand. Vettel didn't "dominate" because red bull beat everybody in the development race after the summer break. He dominated because at the start of the season, when the "best car award" swung every week to a different car these were his results:

 

Australian GP - 3rd

Malaysian GP - 1st

Chinese GP - 4th

Bahrain GP- 1st

Spanish GP- 4th

Monaco GP - 2nd

Canadian GP - 1st

 

Get it now? N O B O D Y has been as consistent this season. He managed it even when his car chewed its tyres long before it became "dominant"

[Silvercheese]

Spain was always known as the benchmark for the best car of the grid in years gone by as it's the place they test most and which sets them up for the majority of the season, guess who dominated that race?................................................. Alonso and Ferrari!

 

I can remember reading back in 2010 + 2011 on here with Red Bull dominating that GP they were then classified the 'best car' on the grid just because of that GP alone. For 2 years now a Red Bull has yet to get pole, win or get a podium in that race.

Edited by Silvercheese, 30 October 2013 - 23:06.

[HP]

Can't predict the future, But 4 is already a lot. Vettel is already a legend in F1

I think it does matter, especially 2 or 10 is a huge difference.

No difference if you talk binary

[HP]

When Vettel in a Torro Rosso scores more than the sum of both Red Bull drivers he's not really shining. In fact it's a proven fact only Alonso can "outdrive" the car.

 

Let me give you helping hand. Vettel didn't "dominate" because red bull beat everybody in the development race after the summer break. He dominated because at the start of the season, when the "best car award" swung every week to a different car these were his results:

 

Australian GP - 3rd

Malaysian GP - 1st

Chinese GP - 4th

Bahrain GP- 1st

Spanish GP- 4th

Monaco GP - 2nd

Canadian GP - 1st

 

Get it now? N O B O D Y has been as consistent this season. He managed it even when his car chewed its tyres long before it became "dominant"

Agreed. Vettel was leading the WDC since race 2 (Malaysia). What's more to say?

[Raven8]

Everything comes to an end sooner ot later, Vettels streak off success, too. It's just a question of time, maybe next year, maybe in 3 years, maybe in 5

[sennafan24]

 

 

Now, if we were going to discuss the 1993 Montreal Canadiens, I'm there. 

More of a Tampa Bay Lightening 2004 guy 

[Mauseri]

Everything comes to an end sooner ot later, Vettels streak off success, too. It's just a question of time, maybe next year, maybe in 3 years, maybe in 5

Could be already next year, depending on the new engines and cars. If the streak ends it may be hard win again. Didn't happen so often in recent history

[George Costanza]

Everyone's success ends.... Even Michael Schumacher did. But I think Seb will be a cotender for a long time to come. And we'll likely to see the best of Seb later in is career, much like Fernando now.

Edited by George Costanza, 31 October 2013 - 02:08.

[sennafan24]

Was not sure where to put this, but this is a great little video by BBC of Seb/Schumacher compared.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/24635574

[Forma1]

When Vettel in a Torro Rosso scores more than the sum of both Red Bull drivers he's not really shining. In fact it's a proven fact only Alonso can "outdrive" the car.

 

Let me give you helping hand. Vettel didn't "dominate" because red bull beat everybody in the development race after the summer break. He dominated because at the start of the season, when the "best car award" swung every week to a different car these were his results:

 

Australian GP - 3rd

Malaysian GP - 1st

Chinese GP - 4th

Bahrain GP- 1st

Spanish GP- 4th

Monaco GP - 2nd

Canadian GP - 1st

 

Get it now? N O B O D Y has been as consistent this season. He managed it even when his car chewed its tyres long before it became "dominant"

Australia  - RB car best car in qualy, 3rd best  in the race

 

Malaysia - best car both in qualy and the race

 

Chinese GP - 3rd best car, he got stuck behind Hülk, that's why he couldn't get the podium

Bahrain GP- best car in the race

Spanish GP- 3rd best car

Monaco GP - 2nd best car

Canadian GP - best car both in the race and qualy

 

German GP - fastest car in qualy (Lewis got pole, but that was an unrepeatable lap from him), best car equally with Lotus

 

Hungary - 2nd best car or the best, I keep on saying what we saw there from Lewis, was something which couldn't be done from any other human in the world

 

Spa dominant car

 

Italy dominant car

 

Singapure dominant car

 

Korea dominant car

 

Japan dominant car

 

India - dominant car

Those facts speak for themselves. Many of you keep speaking of RB struggles at the beginning of the season. Actually, the had problems with the tyres in three races, but they were still 3rd fastest in those races. Many drivers would accept such a "struggling" car RB were in those races. 
THis year was a complete joke. If you say Vettel maximized the potential RB had in those races, what do you have to say about Fernando's performaces year after year. He has done it for four years with a struggling car.

[apoka]

If you say Vettel maximized the potential RB had in those races, what do you have to say about Fernando's performaces year after year.

 

Isn't even your overview showing that Vettel maximised the potential of the car? (Discussing Alonso is offtopic here, so I won't go into that.)

[DarthWillie]

Australia  - RB car best car in qualy, 3rd best  in the race

 

Malaysia - best car both in qualy and the race

 

Chinese GP - 3rd best car, he got stuck behind Hülk, that's why he couldn't get the podium

Bahrain GP- best car in the race

Spanish GP- 3rd best car

Monaco GP - 2nd best car

Canadian GP - best car both in the race and qualy

 

German GP - fastest car in qualy (Lewis got pole, but that was an unrepeatable lap from him), best car equally with Lotus

 

Hungary - 2nd best car or the best, I keep on saying what we saw there from Lewis, was something which couldn't be done from any other human in the world

 

Spa dominant car

 

Italy dominant car

 

Singapure dominant car

 

Korea dominant car

 

Japan dominant car

 

India - dominant car

Those facts speak for themselves. Many of you keep speaking of RB struggles at the beginning of the season. Actually, the had problems with the tyres in three races, but they were still 3rd fastest in those races. Many drivers would accept such a "struggling" car RB were in those races. 
THis year was a complete joke. If you say Vettel maximized the potential RB had in those races, what do you have to say about Fernando's performaces year after year. He has done it for four years with a struggling car.

these aren't facts, this is speculation bordering on fairy tales. Lewis had an incredebly dominant car in Hungary, Better drivers would have lapped the frikking field with that car. If ever there was nothing to be excited about it was that race.

 

Your blind hatred keeps telling you if Vettel wins his car is the best. Nonsense, Calling Germany an equal best car is unfathomable. That was a drive rarely seen, Even staying ahead without Kers made it a championsdrive.

[sennafan24]

these aren't facts, this is speculation bordering on fairy tales. Lewis had an incredebly dominant car in Hungary, Better drivers would have lapped the frikking field with that car. If ever there was nothing to be excited about it was that race.

 

Your blind hatred keeps telling you if Vettel wins his car is the best. Nonsense, Calling Germany an equal best car is unfathomable. That was a drive rarely seen, Even staying ahead without Kers made it a championsdrive.

I agree on Germany 100%

 

But Hungary was a inspired performance on driving merit by Lewis. His very fast teammate was left in the dust, whilst Lewis put in a great performance by any standard, he made zero mistakes that day and pounced at the right time to get himself into clean air.

 

Ted Kravitz felt the RB was a tad stronger on that day, and I have to agree, Lewis is just A-1 in Hungary. It was the one time this year where Lewis has been in a class of his own.

[lbennie]

Ted wants to have lewis's babies though 

[sennafan24]

Ted wants to have lewis's babies though 

He proper loves RB I think, he gets a proper kick out of the way they used the regulations to their advantage.

[string158]

VetTEN?!

[lbennie]

He proper loves RB I think, he gets a proper kick out of the way they used the regulations to their advantage.

 

This is Ted - I'm outside of mercedes' garage - Kravits were talking about here, yes? 

[sennafan24]

This is Ted - I'm outside of mercedes' garage - Kravits were talking about here, yes? 

Nah he is horny for Horner and you know it 

 

Why do you think he got so defensive when Eddie Irvine was having a go at the latest regulations?

[Laffite]

As long Seb goes to Maranello in 2016, yes I allow him to beat Schumi records.

[lbennie]

Nah he is horny for Horner and you know it 

 

Why do you think he got so defensive when Eddie Irvine was having a go at the latest regulations?

 

Oh for sure he loves talking up red bull, but that's because he likes to make it look like Lewis is fighting with 1 arm tied behind his back against the mighty newey and co.

[Forma1]

these aren't facts, this is speculation bordering on fairy tales. Lewis had an incredebly dominant car in Hungary, Better drivers would have lapped the frikking field with that car. If ever there was nothing to be excited about it was that race.

 

Your blind hatred keeps telling you if Vettel wins his car is the best. Nonsense, Calling Germany an equal best car is unfathomable. That was a drive rarely seen, Even staying ahead without Kers made it a championsdrive.

Dominant car in Hungary? That guy had been always the fastest in Hungary or ione of the fastest on that circuit. 2007, 2008. 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013 Only in 2010 he failed to shine when RB had a nice tidy 1,5 (!!!!!!) sec advantage.

As for Germany:Lotus and RB were on pair, RB had the upper had in qualy and in the first laps of the race, then Lotus had the upper hand. Overall it was a totally on pair performance.

 

"Better drivers would have lapped the frikking field with that car"    That made my day. And you keep claimng we are Vettel-haters.   

I remind you for the thousandth time, I was a Vettel even long before he came near to F1, maybe long before your love to him,  and I still like him, but I rate Alonso and Hamilton higher and I just can't stand people are getting blown away with his performances which are clearly masked and massively helped by the dominant cars RB yields him. For 4 years RB have been dominant, if someone neglects that, he really hasn't got a clue about F1. 

[SophieB]

Okay, people have long stopped answering the quiz question and have moved on to arguing over which driver Ted Kravitz loves the most. Closed.