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VETT5L V6TTEL and VE77EL, will Seb match Schumis records?


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#101 RosannaG

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 19:04

I don't think Vettel needs dominant cars.   No one wins the championship in a midfield car, but a car "as good as the best" would give him a very good shot at the title imo.  Certainly if he kept to the form he demonstrated this season.

 

I don't either and we should take into account his age, he is "only" 26 years old so he can still improve a lot. 



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#102 DarthWillie

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 20:05

Ok, if you dare to claim Alonso is not a really good qualifier, I would say Seb is not a tremendously good racer. You can say he has showed lot of overtaking manoeures in the past two years, but we can not forget the fact he enjoyed 0,8-1,8 second advantage depending on the actual sitatuation, driver he fought against, etc.

 

Why did not win Seb in Australia, China or Barca? In the latter place he was beaten even by Felipe. I know it is hard to accept, but Seb has been enjoying a dominant car year after year after year, it is not a hard work for anyone to shine in such a dominant machinery.

:kiss: claim whatever suits your agenda, and don't let the facts get in the way of your red mist. you claim the Red Bull is always dominant, I claim Alonso underperformed. Neither of us have effective proof of who is right.  :wave:



#103 tghik

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 20:23

I don't either and we should take into account his age, he is "only" 26 years old so he can still improve a lot. 

 

so he can, in few years, still improve his lap time in the same car same conditions by another 1 sec, that would make him 3 sec faster than anyone, lol, Vettel's die-hard fans are living in some fantasy world



#104 F1Champion

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 20:24

I have to admit that two championships that Vettel has were very lucky.

 

In 2010 Petrov held up Alonso and Ferrari made a cock up of the strategy. At any other time that would be a normal result and the championship for Alonso.

 

In 2012 - Alonso was wiped out by Grosjean, Vettel got hit in Brazil and a car went over his suspension, any other time and that would be a broken suspension and game over. His exhaust pipe went broken but still functioned for the race and he had the great equaliser of rain to help him catch up with the rest of the field after being at the back.

 

This could very easily have been Alonso 4 and Vettel 2.

 

This is why I feel that at least 1 was lucked into.



#105 Szoelloe

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 20:52

no



#106 RosannaG

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 21:06

so he can, in few years, still improve his lap time in the same car same conditions by another 1 sec, that would make him 3 sec faster than anyone, lol, Vettel's die-hard fans are living in some fantasy world

 

I hope next time you quoted one of my posts, you read it first because I was answering Winter98 and it had nothing to do with what you have assumed... Pathetic!  :rolleyes:



#107 RosannaG

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 21:08

I have to admit that two championships that Vettel has were very lucky.

 

In 2010 Petrov held up Alonso and Ferrari made a cock up of the strategy. At any other time that would be a normal result and the championship for Alonso.

 

In 2012 - Alonso was wiped out by Grosjean, Vettel got hit in Brazil and a car went over his suspension, any other time and that would be a broken suspension and game over. His exhaust pipe went broken but still functioned for the race and he had the great equaliser of rain to help him catch up with the rest of the field after being at the back.

 

This could very easily have been Alonso 4 and Vettel 2.

 

This is why I feel that at least 1 was lucked into.

 

And what about 2006, 2007 and 2008 for example?... Same story, different actors... 



#108 1Devil1

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 21:10

Thanks for your Spanish, that was sweet.   :kiss:

 

Well if you want to call my city "little boat" I won't get mad.  ;)

 

But for us, Barca sounds funny. :lol:

Off topic

I thought you have to hate spanish as real catalan (or not?  ;) ), people refused to speak spanish (castellano) with me in Barcelona



#109 RosannaG

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 21:22

Off topic

I thought you have to hate spanish as real catalan (or not?  ;) ), people refused to speak spanish (castellano) with me in Barcelona

 

Off topic (I hope the mods don't get mad at us)   ;)

 

With all due respect to my fellow "Barceloneses", dummies are all over   ;)  I'm Catalan and I'm Spanish, I speak both languages and I considere myself a educated and polite person so you would not have had that problem with me...  :lol:



#110 Forma1

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 21:25

I can see the space between Vettel- and non-Vettel-fans gettin bigger and bigger. Both parties are desperately try to undermine their opinions with false facts and try to misinterpret other's words. I also do the very same when I read an emotionally exaggerated comment. Yes, Seb can still improve. In which way? We don't know cos he wasn't in a situation when he didn't have a dominant or strong car. Maybe he doesn't even need to improve in any areas. Time will tell. I am just 23 of age, but motorsport has been my life even before I was born, so I am too old in this respect to get blown away. I thought in 2007 that Lewis Hamilton has been the best ever driver the world has ever seen. Now, I honestly think Alonso, Ham, Vettel are on a very similiar level, Alonso is leading from Ham by just a tiny margin who is follwed by Seb very closely. Please don't accuse me of favorizing my favourite. Let me tell an example for that. In MotoGP Rossi has been my favourite for ages, but I admit Lorenzo is clearly a better and faster rider then him. (As I learned from Ham, I apply it to Marquez: he may be considered the best ever rider now due to his success, but I genuinely think Lorenzo is a better rider then Marc -right now, it may change.)



#111 holiday

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 21:26

But as for as the greatest of all time? I do not believe anyone is taking Ayrton's name from that title holder.

 

Not a pleasant prospect for Vettel in any case.. For this he would have to be KIA first to profit from the ensuing post-mortem mythologization.



#112 Winter98

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 21:29

I have to admit that two championships that Vettel has were very lucky.

 

In 2010 Petrov held up Alonso and Ferrari made a cock up of the strategy. At any other time that would be a normal result and the championship for Alonso.

 

In 2012 - Alonso was wiped out by Grosjean, Vettel got hit in Brazil and a car went over his suspension, any other time and that would be a broken suspension and game over. His exhaust pipe went broken but still functioned for the race and he had the great equaliser of rain to help him catch up with the rest of the field after being at the back.

 

This could very easily have been Alonso 4 and Vettel 2.

 

This is why I feel that at least 1 was lucked into.

I'm willing to bet that in every close championship throughout the history of F1, if things had happened differently, a different driver could have won the championship.

 

In other words, by your standards, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, and Alonso all "lucked into" championships.


Edited by Winter98, 29 October 2013 - 21:29.


#113 holiday

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 21:29

He'll match them if RBR continues to provide him with the fastest car and lackluster teammates.

 

Yeah, Ricciardo isn't exactly a world-beater. Oh wait, he did not even race him yet. But Vettel has made it look easy and almost boring which is the sign of the few truly great.


Edited by holiday, 29 October 2013 - 21:31.


#114 tghik

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 21:33

I hope next time you quoted one of my posts, you read it first because I was answering Winter98 and it had nothing to do with what you have assumed... Pathetic!  :rolleyes:

what ? sorry you lost me here

you remind me of low level engineers that simply can not do a design that works in real world, so even if you ask them a specific technical questions they always defend by attacking the person because they don't know the answer, they can't discuss the issues using technical format, this is simply their defending mechanism



#115 RosannaG

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 21:47

what ? sorry you lost me here

you remind me of low level engineers that simply can not do a design that works in real world, so even if you ask them a specific technical questions they always defend by attacking the person because they don't know the answer, they can't discuss the issues using technical format, this is simply their defending mechanism

 

Amen! I couldn't agree more,  :up:


Edited by RosannaG, 29 October 2013 - 23:29.


#116 ensign14

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 23:42

I'm willing to bet that in every close championship throughout the history of F1, if things had happened differently, a different driver could have won the championship.

 

In other words, by your standards, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, and Alonso all "lucked into" championships.

 

Exactly.  Which is why the championship, in terms of history, is worthless as anything other than a PR device or a narrative framework.  Don't believe the hype, racebitches.



#117 JHSingo

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 23:51

I have to admit that two championships that Vettel has were very lucky.

 

In 2010 Petrov held up Alonso and Ferrari made a cock up of the strategy. At any other time that would be a normal result and the championship for Alonso.

 

In 2012 - Alonso was wiped out by Grosjean, Vettel got hit in Brazil and a car went over his suspension, any other time and that would be a broken suspension and game over. His exhaust pipe went broken but still functioned for the race and he had the great equaliser of rain to help him catch up with the rest of the field after being at the back.

 

This could very easily have been Alonso 4 and Vettel 2.

 

This is why I feel that at least 1 was lucked into.

 

Most drivers who have won the championship have had a fair amount of luck on their side. By the logic you use, you could say Hamilton "lucked" into his title in 2008 because of Massa's engine failure while leading at Hungary/pit stop problem while leading in Singapore, or Hakkinen "lucked" into the title in 1999 because of Schumacher's broken leg. Maybe Hunt "lucked" into his title into 1976 because Lauda was nearly burnt to a crisp at the Nurburgring and had to miss a couple of races.

 

Also, consider how many points Vettel lost through no fault of his own in 2010 with mechanical problems. He lost the win in Bahrain due to a broken spark plug. He lost the win in Australia due to brake failure. He lost the win in Korea because of engine failure, and those are just three off the top of my head. Really, you could argue Alonso "lucked" into even being in title contention because of Vettel's retirements.

 

Fact is, you can go right through the sport's history and pick out those "what if" moments that have influenced the way the title has gone in a particular year.



#118 josepatches

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 23:59

Yes, Vettel only can improve at 26.  That's the scary part of the history.

 

Surely He'll win more titles.  He's already as good if not better than any other driver of the grid so it should be only a matter of time. 



#119 garagetinkerer

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 00:33

Yes, Vettel only can improve at 26.  That's the scary part of the history.

 

Surely He'll win more titles.  He's already as good if not better than any other driver of the grid so it should be only a matter of time. 

Thing is, there may be more talented drivers there (heck, i'm in no mood to argue with people who refuse to see reason, so here's a bone!) on the grid. However, Vettel works extra hard (usually is the last driver to leave the circuit), is quite intelligent and humble so chances are that he'll learn and improve. It will take a very brave man/ woman (or a damned fool! take a pick) to bet against Vettel winning more.



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#120 Forma1

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 07:12

Thing is, there may be more talented drivers there (heck, i'm in no mood to argue with people who refuse to see reason, so here's a bone!) on the grid. However, Vettel works extra hard (usually is the last driver to leave the circuit), is quite intelligent and humble so chances are that he'll learn and improve. It will take a very brave man/ woman (or a damned fool! take a pick) to bet against Vettel winning more.

Yeah, I keep in saying everybody thought Lewis was the best ever driver history had seen till that point. He showed his talent against Fernando in the same team and under fierce battle against Ferrari and at times BMW. Vettel doesn't really have the competion, this year and in 2011 he clearly didn't have any at all, but he has been doing a solid job, so let's wait and see what he is capeble of when his car is a good, but not dominant car.



#121 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 07:24

I have to admit that two championships that Vettel has were very lucky.

 

In 2010 Petrov held up Alonso and Ferrari made a cock up of the strategy. At any other time that would be a normal result and the championship for Alonso.

 

In 2012 - Alonso was wiped out by Grosjean, Vettel got hit in Brazil and a car went over his suspension, any other time and that would be a broken suspension and game over. His exhaust pipe went broken but still functioned for the race and he had the great equaliser of rain to help him catch up with the rest of the field after being at the back.

 

This could very easily have been Alonso 4 and Vettel 2.

 

This is why I feel that at least 1 was lucked into.

 

 

You can say that about almost any championship in history and thus discredit the value of every won F1-title. 

 

It's easy to find "luck" behind every success and not see the hard work and talent that was the actual factors behind it. 



#122 mnmracer

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 09:16

You can say that about almost any championship in history and thus discredit the value of every won F1-title. 

 

It's easy to find "luck" behind every success and not see the hard work and talent that was the actual factors behind it. 

The biggest problem with that post is the single-mindedness of it. If Vettel hadn't lost three race wins due to mechanical failures in 2010, he would have clinched the title before Abu Dhabi. If Hamilton and H├╝lkenberg hadn't crashed in Brazil 2012, it wouldn't have mattered whether Vettel retired or not, Alonso wouldn't have gotten enough points anyway. 'luck' goes both ways and it's very telling of a person when he's trying to make you believe just one side of the story.



#123 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 09:53

I don;t thnk Sebastian will get any faster. What he'll do - like Alonso - is get more mature, become even more analytical in his approach and become all around improved in every area. And if he has a great car then the opposition will wince again. If he has a 2nd or 3rd best car like Alonso has had since 2010 then we will see some magical driving.

 

Sadly, I think this is something Hamilton has failed to do since winning his WDC - in my opinion.



#124 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:09

I don;t thnk Sebastian will get any faster. What he'll do - like Alonso - is get more mature, become even more analytical in his approach and become all around improved in every area. And if he has a great car then the opposition will wince again. If he has a 2nd or 3rd best car like Alonso has had since 2010 then we will see some magical driving.

 

Sadly, I think this is something Hamilton has failed to do since winning his WDC - in my opinion.

 

I would not dismiss Ferrari or Mercedes until I see their engines' performance in January winter testing next year. It is a big unknown and any of the big 4 could dominate next year because it will mostly be about engines and ERS reliability.



#125 Forma1

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:13

The biggest problem with that post is the single-mindedness of it. If Vettel hadn't lost three race wins due to mechanical failures in 2010, he would have clinched the title before Abu Dhabi. If Hamilton and H├╝lkenberg hadn't crashed in Brazil 2012, it wouldn't have mattered whether Vettel retired or not, Alonso wouldn't have gotten enough points anyway. 'luck' goes both ways and it's very telling of a person when he's trying to make you believe just one side of the story.

I guess he thinks Vettel had enough like by having a dominant car year after year. It is a mircale in itself that Alonso almost clinches the title in 2010 or in 2012. Reliabiliy is part of the game, it has nothing to do with luck. Alonso was knocked out in Spa and Japan by the Lotuses or in 2010 he had incredible back luck in Valencia and Silverstone despite fighting nice podium places.



#126 RosannaG

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:28

I guess he thinks Vettel had enough like by having a dominant car year after year. It is a mircale in itself that Alonso almost clinches the title in 2010 or in 2012. Reliabiliy is part of the game, it has nothing to do with luck. Alonso was knocked out in Spa and Japan by the Lotuses or in 2010 he had incredible back luck in Valencia and Silverstone despite fighting nice podium places.

 

And luck is a part of the game too...  :wave:

 

Since Spa and Japan, I have heard a lot about how he lost his chances to win the title there but those two retirements were at the beginning of the race so how can anybody know (him included) in which position he was going to finish? Races are long and anything could happen until you arrive to the finish line so, with all due respect, excuses are excuses and nothing else.  :)

 

And the season is very, very long and as I said before, luck is also a part of the game... Even though, I don't believe in good or bad luck.  :p



#127 Forma1

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:11

And luck is a part of the game too...  :wave:

 

Since Spa and Japan, I have heard a lot about how he lost his chances to win the title there but those two retirements were at the beginning of the race so how can anybody know (him included) in which position he was going to finish? Races are long and anything could happen until you arrive to the finish line so, with all due respect, excuses are excuses and nothing else.  :)

 

And the season is very, very long and as I said before, luck is also a part of the game... Even though, I don't believe in good or bad luck.  :p

No, luck and reliability are different stuffs, you know. What does the performance of a driver/team package consist of? It consists of the driver's performance, car's speed and reliability, team work, etc, so all stuffs which are under your own controll. If the car breaks down, it is up to the engineers in 95 % of the cases. You can't do much about luck though. It is out of your controll.

 

Which position would he have get? Nobody knows, but he was in top form and considering Massa was very fast in Spa and got a podium in Suzuka, there is no need for an Einstein to figure out which places Alonso could have got.

 

Any yeah: Alonso was knocked out by Kimi and ROmain, he was out of the race, Seb was tangled with Senna (?) heavily, but managed to continue. This is kinda magic, isn't it? 



#128 EthanM

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:16

No, luck and reliability are different stuffs, you know. What does the performance of a driver/team package consist of? It consists of the driver's performance, car's speed and reliability, team work, etc, so all stuffs which are under your own controll. If the car breaks down, it is up to the engineers in 95 % of the cases. You can't do much about luck though. It is out of your controll.

 

Which position would he have get? Nobody knows, but he was in top form and considering Massa was very fast in Spa and got a podium in Suzuka, there is no need for an Einstein to figure out which places Alonso could have got.

 

Any yeah: Alonso was knocked out by Kimi and ROmain, he was out of the race, Seb was tangled with Senna (?) heavily, but managed to continue. This is kinda magic, isn't it? 

 

 

Suzuka was Alonso's fault though, not Raikkonen's. Doesn't fit into your theory, I know, but just saying



#129 Forma1

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:25

Suzuka was Alonso's fault though, not Raikkonen's. Doesn't fit into your theory, I know, but just saying

Yeah, you're totally right. Alonso was supposed to have eyes on the back of his head. 

 

Seriosly, man, if you know just a tiny bit about motorsport, please, take a look at it. Kimi wanted to squeeze himself into a space where there was no more room than half of his Lotus. It was a very nasty and desperate move from my beloved Finn.



#130 Radion

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:28

Yeah, you're totally right. Alonso was supposed to have eyes on the back of his head. 

 

Seriosly, man, if you know just a tiny bit about motorsport, please, take a look at it. Kimi wanted to squeeze himself into a space where there was no more room than half of his Lotus. It was a very nasty and desperate move from my beloved Finn.

Stop the video at 0:34 and tell me, why alonso didn't go right, where he had enough room to avoid pushing kimi onto the gras.

 

Btw: It's called mirror and every driver has two of these on each side.

No eyes on the back of the head needed.


Edited by Radion, 30 October 2013 - 12:47.


#131 mnmracer

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:30

I'm sure there's a valid unbiased reason why you're not showing the footage from Kimi's onboard, which shows he was already next to Alonso and it was Alonso closing in on him?



#132 1Devil1

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:39

Yeah, I keep in saying everybody thought Lewis was the best ever driver history had seen till that point. He showed his talent against Fernando in the same team and under fierce battle against Ferrari and at times BMW. Vettel doesn't really have the competion, this year and in 2011 he clearly didn't have any at all, but he has been doing a solid job, so let's wait and see what he is capeble of when his car is a good, but not dominant car.

 

I never thought Lewis was the best driver in history only because of his first year,  he was special in every aspect, we are talking about four years in a row here, not a glimps of talent. Did you get that ahead after the first season of Hamilton - in a top car? What did you do after Vettel won with Torro Rosso, thought the new master is in town?!



#133 Forma1

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:40

There is no way for a driver to have a real picture so far behind Kimi was. Lewis Hamilton was accused of being a trash in 2011 when he has so many collisions with Pastor and Felipe. He always came up claiming there was no way to get a clear view cos the mirrors are not just tiny, but they are vibrating. 

 

mnmracer! Can you copy and paste the link, pleae?



#134 Forma1

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:44

I never thought Lewis was the best driver in history only because of his first year,  he was special in every aspect, we are talking about four years in a row here, not a glimps of talent. Did you get that ahead after the first season of Hamilton - in a top car? What did you do after Vettel won with Torro Rosso, thought the new master is in town?!

I was a fan of Seb long long before his win with TR and long before his debut in F1. What did I think after that win? THat he is special, but I didn't get the same feeling as I did with Lewis. Lewis is someone special. He is able to get the best out of the car even when it's far from the best. As an Alonso-fan I dare to say nobody, I repeat, nobody could have done, even not Alonso the same he has fulfilled in Hungary this year. When he is on top of his game, he is unbeatable.



#135 Radion

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:50

There is no way for a driver to have a real picture so far behind Kimi was. Lewis Hamilton was accused of being a trash in 2011 when he has so many collisions with Pastor and Felipe. He always came up claiming there was no way to get a clear view cos the mirrors are not just tiny, but they are vibrating. 

 

mnmracer! Can you copy and paste the link, pleae?

Why have mirrors in the first place then?  :drunk:

Again, alonso could have avoided the impact had he just driven a little bit to the right...


Edited by Radion, 30 October 2013 - 12:50.


#136 sennafan24

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:51

As an Alonso-fan I dare to say nobody, I repeat, nobody could have done, even not Alonso the same he has fulfilled in Hungary this year. When he is on top of his game, he is unbeatable.

I agree on this.

 

But in 2013, Lewis has been more patchy in getting the most out of his car, I cannot really say the same for Seb in 2013



#137 ReeVe

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:52

Yeah, you're totally right. Alonso was supposed to have eyes on the back of his head. 

 

Seriosly, man, if you know just a tiny bit about motorsport, please, take a look at it. Kimi wanted to squeeze himself into a space where there was no more room than half of his Lotus. It was a very nasty and desperate move from my beloved Finn.

 

I am sorry but you are reinventing history. The collision was Alonso's mistake, he veered left across Raikkonen's front wing, Raikkonen was already at the edge of the track with no space to go further left. There is no way any sane person can blame this on Raikkonen

 

2012-F1-Suzuka-Raikkonen-Alonso-first-co



#138 JHSingo

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:56

Yeah, you're totally right. Alonso was supposed to have eyes on the back of his head. 

 

Seriosly, man, if you know just a tiny bit about motorsport, please, take a look at it. Kimi wanted to squeeze himself into a space where there was no more room than half of his Lotus. It was a very nasty and desperate move from my beloved Finn.

 

Your clear dislike for Red Bull, Vettel, and anyone other than Alonso, seems to be clouding your judgement, my friend. The majority of (unbiased) observers agree that it was more Alonso's fault, but hey, believe what you want to believe if it makes you feel any better.



#139 Winter98

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:59

Exactly.  Which is why the championship, in terms of history, is worthless as anything other than a PR device or a narrative framework.  Don't believe the hype, racebitches.

Yet except for the odd exception, F1 drivers are ranked very closely to their WDC and stats total.

 

The exceptions are of course drivers such as Senna with incomplete stats due to death, and drivers who earned at least part of their reputation in other series, such as Clark (Indy 500, etc.)


Edited by Winter98, 30 October 2013 - 13:07.


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#140 Winter98

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 13:04

...

Any yeah: Alonso was knocked out by Kimi and ROmain, he was out of the race, Seb was tangled with Senna (?) heavily, but managed to continue. This is kinda magic, isn't it? 

Perhaps Vettel reacted 1/100th of a second quicker, thus saving his car where other's wouldn't have  been able to.

 

Not saying that's what definitely happened, because we'll never know, just saying that we don't have to rely on "magic" as the only possible explanation..



#141 Forma1

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 13:14

I agree on this.

 

But in 2013, Lewis has been more patchy in getting the most out of his car, I cannot really say the same for Seb in 2013

 
You are a clever guy, that's my impression from your comments, but it is much easier to get the speed from the superb RB than from the Mercedes. When RB weren't on top their game, Vettel was stuggling - Australia, China and Barcelona. Was Lewis inconsistent at times? Yes, cos his car was undriveable at some races when it ate up the tyres just after a few laps. When did Seb have the same problem? Never ever. Even when his RB wasn't dominant it was good enough to deliver a nice tidy result. You can claim Webber ... yeah, Webber didn't get the same result, why there was load of tactical, reliability issues with him (China - double trouble from RB on tactical and pit tops side), but even Webbo had a nice speed at every weekend, yeah, he keeps on messing up his starts, that's the only stuff he has to improve.
Just came to my mind: Lewis was a class of his own in Silverstone till his tyre failure, I dare to say the drives he showed at Silverstone and Hungary couldn't be repeated by Vettel or anyone on the grid.


#142 Forma1

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 13:16

Perhaps Vettel reacted 1/100th of a second quicker, thus saving his car where other's wouldn't have  been able to.

 

Not saying that's what definitely happened, because we'll never know, just saying that we don't have to rely on "magic" as the only possible explanation..

1/100th. Man, you are kidding me, aren't you? Vettel slowly gets abilities from a god. :) I can just laugh, sorry! :)



#143 Forma1

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 13:24

As for mirrors: I had the chance to sit in an older Sauber a few weeks ago or so, I can confirm you can hardly see anything and I wasn't even driving at 300 km/h. Was Kimi on the side of Fernando? Maybe, but don't forget Fernando had other cars around, to his right and i front of him. It still was a silly move to Kimi. there was just no space, he was touching the grass and what did he suppos to do from that angle? Alonso was completely committed to the first corner and wanted to have the racing line. I called it a racing incident back then ,but it was clearly not down to Fernando alone, Kimi played a huge part in it as well.Anyway 

 

it just shows how much more risks he has to take than Seb. Our German always start from the very front, he clearly has hardly any risk to take. Alonso has to make up places he couldn't get due to his slow-qualifier Ferrari, that's why he has to fight and give it all at every single start. 



#144 1Devil1

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 13:24

 

 
You are a clever guy, that's my impression from your comments, but it is much easier to get the speed from the superb RB than from the Mercedes. When RB weren't on top their game, Vettel was stuggling - Australia, China and Barcelona. Was Lewis inconsistent at times? Yes, cos his car was undriveable at some races when it ate up the tyres just after a few laps. When did Seb have the same problem? Never ever. Even when his RB wasn't dominant it was good enough to deliver a nice tidy result. You can claim Webber ... yeah, Webber didn't get the same result, why there was load of tactical, reliability issues with him (China - double trouble from RB on tactical and pit tops side), but even Webbo had a nice speed at every weekend, yeah, he keeps on messing up his starts, that's the only stuff he has to improve.
Just came to my mind: Lewis was a class of his own in Silverstone till his tyre failure, I dare to say the drives he showed at Silverstone and Hungary couldn't be repeated by Vettel or anyone on the grid.

 

Man you are more a Hamilton fanboy than Alonso, Vettel did deliver when the cars was not right, Red Bull had massive troubles with the tires, you remember the discussion about having more downforce as deficit? What about Silverstone, Rosberg did win or not? Mercedes was quit good in the middle of the season, in this pattern I don't know what would be special about a Lewis win, Alonso or Vettel would have done the same in that Mercedes rocket. Hamilton had a good year but, he had his up and downs. For example Barcelona, got beaten by Rosberg for pole three time in a row, his mistake in Monza, his starts from time to time. He was better last year, and Vettel clearly was a class above him this year..



#145 E.B.

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 13:28

Yet except for the odd exception, F1 drivers are ranked very closely to their WDC and stats total.

 

:confused:  By who exactly? There is no agreed ranking, and I doubt you will find many people who rate, for example, Brabham above Moss or Scheckter above Villeneuve, unless WDC stats are all they have to work with. There are many more examples than these odd exceptions. I think the statistical top 20 would look quite silly if it were proposed as a "definitive" ranking of drivers.



#146 ReeVe

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 13:28

As for mirrors: I had the chance to sit in an older Sauber a few weeks ago or so, I can confirm you can hardly see anything and I wasn't even driving at 300 km/h. Was Kimi on the side of Fernando? Maybe, but don't forget Fernando had other cars around, to his right and i front of him. It still was a silly move to Kimi. there was just no space, he was touching the grass and what did he suppos to do from that angle? Alonso was completely committed to the first corner and wanted to have the racing line. I called it a racing incident back then ,but it was clearly not down to Fernando alone, Kimi played a huge part in it as well.Anyway 

 

it just shows how much more risks he has to take than Seb. Our German always start from the very front, he clearly has hardly any risk to take. Alonso has to make up places he couldn't get due to his slow-qualifier Ferrari, that's why he has to fight and give it all at every single start. 

 

there was no "move" from kimi, he was driving in a straight line, Alonso went right, Button was there then he went too far left and run across Kimi's front wing. Get over it, it wasn't Kimi's fault. Even from a regulatory standpoint having a significant part of the car alongside (and it is stated that the front wing being near the other guys wheels) entitles you to space. You can clearly see Kimi's front wheel's were alongside Alonso's rear's before he had to jink left into the grass.



#147 sennafan24

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 13:32

 

 
You are a clever guy, that's my impression from your comments, 

 

I would not go that far   ;)  But thanks

 

On your point

 

Its a problematic to compare the teammates of Lewis and Seb, but Seb has pretty much every weekend got more out the RB than Webber, Lewis at times like Spain and India,has been a way back from Rosberg.

 

I am basing this on relative performance, over the full year the RB has been better and more consistent, its only had maybe 1 or 2 races where Seb has not been able to put it on the podium through lack of pure pace in the car, but when it has like China where Lewis was 3rd and Seb was 4th, the RB struggled and Seb got something out of it. Same in Hungary which was his worst performance of the year, Seb still beat his teammate and got a podium, he always performs to a certain standard in 2013. The guy has improved from 2012, where he struggled in some opening races to get much out of the RB, and put Webber ot bed.

 

In 2013 Rosberg is better than Webber in my opinion, but Seb has not made many mistakes on track this year. Only in Canada where he almost put the car into the wall has he made a serious driver error (but he got away with it) No matter what machinery that is pretty impressive, Alonso in 2005 in lauded for a season where the only mistake he made was putting his car into the wall in Canada, so it goes without saying

 

I believe Lewis vs Seb in relative performance is quite close actually in terms of years, I had 2010 and 2012 for Lewis and 2011 and 2013 for Seb when I rate who got the most out their car, consistency, teammate comparison, reliability and other variables. It is still hard to quantify as they are in different machinery, you just have observe what they do at times and try and figure out how good the machinery is they are working with (which can be very hard or very easy)



#148 Winter98

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 13:37

1/100th. Man, you are kidding me, aren't you? Vettel slowly gets abilities from a god. :) I can just laugh, sorry! :)

 

You had attributed something to magic, I find it much more likely that driver skill played a part.

 

As I said, perhaps if Vettel had reacted 1/100th of a second slower, his collision with Senna would have ended his race.  It makes no sense to say that reacting 1/100th of a second quicker requires god's intervention.



#149 Winter98

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 13:43

:confused:  By who exactly? There is no agreed ranking, and I doubt you will find many people who rate, for example, Brabham above Moss or Scheckter above Villeneuve, unless WDC stats are all they have to work with. There are many more examples than these odd exceptions. I think the statistical top 20 would look quite silly if it were proposed as a "definitive" ranking of drivers.

Could you please go back and reread my post?  I agree there are exceptions, and I explained why they happen.

 

GV has incomplete stats due to death, and Moss earned at least part of his reputation outside of F1.

 

To repeat:  There is some wiggle room, but rankings tend to mirror stats, with the exceptions of incomplete stats due to death, and reps earned partly outside of F1.


Edited by Winter98, 30 October 2013 - 13:46.


#150 sennafan24

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 13:49

One exception is Mansell and Piquet. One won 1 title and is seen by many as better than the other who won 3.

 

Personally, I think they were quite even.