415 replies to this topic

[Radion]

Sigh. Nobody puts the car where it doesnt belong, that should be obvious... even for most die-hard fans.

I think you know what I mean.

To see top drivers like Raik struggle so much and at the same time fred draging that car into the top 5 at any possible occasion is quite something. Not seeing that with the hulk..

 

I could understand the hype if he had won brazil 2012/finished on the podium, beating his teammates in a more clear way. But right now, he's a better heidfeld in my book. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edited by Radion, 11 August 2014 - 18:55.

[bourbon]

I think you know what I mean.
To see top drivers like Raik struggle so much and at the same time fred draging that car into the top 5 at any possible occasion is quite something. Not seeing that with the hulk..

I could understand the hype if he had won brazil 2012/finished on the podium, beating his teammates in a more clear way. But right now, he's a better heidfeld in my book. Nothing more, nothing less.

How is he supposed to drag his car anywhere? He's not in a Ferrari. Nando wasn't doing much dragging in 2009, yet hulk should fetch podiums and top 5 positions?

Edited by bourbon, 11 August 2014 - 20:20.

[DavidHeath461]

How is he supposed to drag his car anywhere? He's not in a Ferrari. Nando wasn't doing much dragging in 2009, yet hulk should fetch podiums and top 5 positions?

Yes because the Ferrari is such a great car this year *sigh*

Perez has a podium this year, Hulkenberg has 0.

Even Alonso managed to drag the Renault to a podium finish in 2009 and that was one of the worst cars of the year.

[Risil]

Even Alonso managed to drag the Renault to a podium finish in 2009 and that was one of the worst cars of the year.

 

Strange year, 2009. Every car managed a podium except the Toro Rosso.

[bourbon]

Yes because the Ferrari is such a great car this year *sigh*

Perez has a podium this year, Hulkenberg has 0.

Even Alonso managed to drag the Renault to a podium finish in 2009 and that was one of the worst cars of the year.

 

No, the Ferrari is not a great car, but it is better than the Force India, so we can't fairly hold Hulky to the same standard, imo.  Perez, who I rate super highly, lucked into his podium on a good weekend, but he can't really drag the Force India anywhere either without it blowing up - figuratively speaking (in general).   Similarly, Alonso didn't drag the Renault to a podium; rather he lucked into it when the front runners finished behind him. 

 

That is not to dismiss his or Perez' efforts, but this type of thing is more luck than finding opportunities, because if the front runners don't have issues, the slower cars don't have a chance.   The Force Indias have to contend with the Mercs, Ferraris, Redbulls and Williams.  Occassionally, a STRR as well.  So it is, imo, unfair to judge them according to the standards of Alonso in his Ferrari.  Rather a fairer comparison is based on their performance in light of the equipment they have (which is what I think Alonso 2.0 means). 

Edited by bourbon, 11 August 2014 - 21:36.

[jonpollak]

As a driver, or a personality? He has seemed to step his driving up to a level we haven't seen really since his title season a decade ago (he was the first Chase Champion). And as a personality, he has kept his opinions to himself. Maybe those opinions where really his? Just managed the temper and everything it brings. 

 

Both. Seeing him at Indy in May totally changed my impression . Jp

[DaddyCool]

I'll bite.

 

Alonso is putting the Ferrari exactly where a Ferrari can be put because:

 

1. He is an incredibly talented 2-times world champ with lots of experience, who can read races very well.

2. He has a very competent rece engineer and pit crew behind him.

3. Ferrari has practically bulletproof reliability, a fact often overlooked. The team's only DNF is Kimi's in GB. No brake failures, no random MGU failures on both cars for half races, no bonfires during qualy.

 

He will always be there when others mess up strategy, make errors or their cars break down. This is IMHO his greatest strength.

 

This "overperforming the car" has been making me mad ever since people started to use it ad nauseam since Kubica. It's the same "Kimi is unmotivated", "Lewis should concentrate on racing", "Fernando crumbles under championship pressure" bullshit parroted by the press and pundits.

Somebody please explain what else could Hulkenberg do with a fricking Force India at his disposal? 69 points, 10 consecutive points finishes, 7th in the standings seems a job well done to me.

 

Perez has a podium this year, Hulkenberg has 0.
 

 

 

Another favorite of mine. So what? Do you think Force India is better off with having a podium than with Nico's +40 points?

 

 

[warp]

No, the Ferrari is not a great car, but it is better than the Force India, so we can't fairly hold Hulky to the same standard, imo.  Perez, who I rate super highly, lucked into his podium on a good weekend, but he can't really drag the Force India anywhere either without it blowing up - figuratively speaking (in general).   Similarly, Alonso didn't drag the Renault to a podium; rather he lucked into it when the front runners finished behind him. 

 

That is not to dismiss his or Perez' efforts, but this type of thing is more luck than finding opportunities, because if the front runners don't have issues, the slower cars don't have a chance.   The Force Indias have to contend with the Mercs, Ferraris, Redbulls and Williams.  Occassionally, a STRR as well.  So it is, imo, unfair to judge them according to the standards of Alonso in his Ferrari.  Rather a fairer comparison is based on their performance in light of the equipment they have (which is what I think Alonso 2.0 means). 

 

 

Shoot, Hulk should be one of the most unlucky drivers in the grid.

 

Call it luck if you will, but Perez has "lucked" 4 times into a podium in about the same seasons as the Hulk (as a driver, Hulkenberg has one more season in F1). Driving a Sauber and a Force India (which are teams that are consistently 6th-7th in the WCC).

 

Teams also look at that kind of things. 

 

BTW... I'm not defending Perez. He won't be Champion material until he finds out how to finish races more often.

 

Force India may have the best mid-field drivers on the grid this year.

[bourbon]

Shoot, Hulk should be one of the most unlucky drivers in the grid.

 

Call it luck if you will, but Perez has "lucked" 4 times into a podium in about the same seasons as the Hulk (as a driver, Hulkenberg has one more season in F1). Driving a Sauber and a Force India (which are teams that are consistently 6th-7th in the WCC).

 

Teams also look at that kind of things. 

 

BTW... I'm not defending Perez. He won't be Champion material until he finds out how to finish races more often.

 

Force India may have the best mid-field drivers on the grid this year.

 

I've always had an eye on Perez.  I am a fan, although he is not a favorite.  Perez has definitely not lucked into 4 podiums, but he did luck into the one this year - many drivers have.  When either Lewis or Nico were not in the top 3, some other driver lucked into a top position that would not otherwise be there.  But he fully merits praise for his efforts.

[warp]

I'll bite.

 

 

Another favorite of mine. So what? Do you think Force India is better off with having a podium than with Nico's +40 points?

 

 

 

Better? Not really. It's championship points/standing that really brings money home. I understand that.

 

But podiums get you that exposure that a 5th-6th place doesn't and sure that keeps sponsors ($$) happy.

 

Vijay must be having a hell of a season so far and I'm happy for FI.

[noikeee]

This. Hülkenberg is Alonso 2.0 in terms of performance, his only 'problem' might be that he's pretty much invisible in the paddock and the media.

 

I personally think that might be a bit much. Think he's as good as Button though. That's a world champion, and one that could keep Hamilton honest and beat him outright when the stars were lined up well.

 

If I had to guess I'd say Hulk's lacks the last tenth or the insane killer instint guys like Alonso and Hamilton have. He's at least mildly close to them though, and deserves a shot at the top.

[MetallurgicalHedonist]

The last one who changed my opinion was Button... Never saw coming that...

Apart from that no surprises... Alonso and Hamilton were always the best or sometimes even slightly underrated, in my opinion. Vettel always somehow overrated, to my mind. Rosberg was always fatally underrated until now. People will be surprised by Grosjean (who is better than they thought) and by Ricciardo (who is not that super great as they thought). Like Magnussen Stoffel Vandorne (sorry, if the name is written wrong) is not that good. And Verstappen could very be the next messiah which appears every 20 years (Senna, Alonso, ...).

If all that doesn't come to fruition then Ricciardo or Vandorne will be the next drivers after Button who will change my mind...

[bourbon]

the problem with this thread is that it piggy backs off a thread from last season that was started 2 races from the end of the season.  We were not even at half season when it was revived to ask the question again as if everything will remain status quo.  But if the first half surprised, why would we expect less from part II?  I know some were overanxious to condemn or praise - that always happens and there is a fear that by year's end one won't be able to express that sentiment.  But it really is far too early to make statements regarding the 'season' without a 'so far' disclaimer.

[noikeee]

the problem with this thread is that it piggy backs off a thread from last season that was started 2 races from the end of the season.  We were not even at half season when it was revived to ask the question again as if everything will remain status quo.  But if the first half surprised, why would we expect less from part II?  I know some were overanxious to condemn or praise - that always happens and there is a fear that by year's end one won't be able to express that sentiment.  But it really is far too early to make statements regarding the 'season' without a 'so far' disclaimer.

 

All fair, but I cannot help but feel the fact you're an unashamed declared Vettel supporter might have something to do with why you're writing this. 

[Thomas99]

the problem with this thread is that it piggy backs off a thread from last season that was started 2 races from the end of the season.  We were not even at half season when it was revived to ask the question again as if everything will remain status quo.  But if the first half surprised, why would we expect less from part II?  I know some were overanxious to condemn or praise - that always happens and there is a fear that by year's end one won't be able to express that sentiment.  But it really is far too early to make statements regarding the 'season' without a 'so far' disclaimer.

 

I actually think there are very few surprises.

 

We knew Rosberg and Lewis would be close based on last year.

 

Alonso beats every team mate so no reason to think he wouldn't beat Kimi.

 

The Ricciardo and Vettel is not a 'surprise' its simply it was unknown. We had no past history of their relative performance so its just new information. A surprise would be for instance Vettel dominating Ricciardo in the second half, as we have information to suggest otherwise.

 

Hulkenberg always performs well so I don't think anyone is surprised by that and Perez continues his trend of amazing drives or crashing.

 

This season is quite normal really.

[bourbon]

I actually think there are very few surprises.

 

We knew Rosberg and Lewis would be close based on last year.

 

Alonso beats every team mate so no reason to think he wouldn't beat Kimi.

 

The Ricciardo and Vettel is not a 'surprise' its simply it was unknown. We had no past history of their relative performance so its just new information. A surprise would be for instance Vettel dominating Ricciardo in the second half, as we have information to suggest otherwise.

 

Hulkenberg always performs well so I don't think anyone is surprised by that and Perez continues his trend of amazing drives or crashing.

 

This season is quite normal really.

 

That is 'so far'.  I'm talking about part II.  If nothing changes, then early thoughts match late thoughts, but we can't talk in terms of the season yet.