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Drivers who have changed your opinion this season


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#301 redreni

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 14:42

Could the same not be said about the 2009 Brawn alongside Rubens though?

 

When the season started Brawn had two monocoques to last them for the opening flyaway races, with a third coming for Barcelona, and that was their lot for the season. That's what ultimately put them off taking a chance on Bruno Senna. If Button had crashed as often as, say, Hamilton, he might not have made it to the end of the season. From memory, Hamilton binned it in Monaco qualy, at Spa and at Monza where he tossed away a podium with a high speed crash in the Lesmos.

 

Button, in contrast, managed to steer clear of trouble in every session of every race weekend and scored points on merit in every race, except Spa where he was assaulted by Grosjean. In the Valencia race, which is now used as a stick to beat him because he was in the minor points places where his teammate won, he lost a ton of places at the start and ended up buried in the pack because he lifted to avoid Vettel, who did one of his Schumacher-esque sideswipes on him off the line. Better that, though, than put a crack in a monocoque that can't be replaced mid season owing to the team's tenuous financial position. This is another example of the benefit of seeing a driver's actions and performances in context. Many a driver would have responded to Vettel's aggressive move by keeping their foot in and driving over the kerbs, but actually it needed some very careful and measured driving and good judgement to see out that championship. I don't think it can be assumed that anyone would have been able to do it.

 

Winning the title in a 2013 Red Bull with Webber as a teammate, however, would be a formality for any top driver because there's plenty of margin for error. Even for a driver that's three or four tenths off Vettel's ultimate pace, at most races this season such a driver would still be quicker than everybody else including Webber.


Edited by redreni, 13 November 2013 - 15:09.


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#302 sennafan24

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 14:54

I did not say anyone, I said former WDC's. Lets see who were the former WDC's in 2009

 

- Lewis in 2009 was a great driver, yes he made mistakes as you pointed out, but would he have fallen behind Rubens after Silverstone like Button did, I think not. If Button would have maximized his chances more early on (which you may have a point about) I see no reason why we could not expect Lewis to rally later on in the season, when Button struggled a while.

 

Plus different circumstances, Lewis was fighting for points at Monza, I think he would have been more inclined to settle and not push so much if he was protecting a Championship lead in the Brawn.

 

- Alonso in 2009 was entering his prime, and Alonso can be just as measured as Button, and probably a bit faster.

 

- Kimi in 2009, was actually pretty good in the second half, and not woeful in the first half. I think Kimi would have pulled it off also.

 

So, all 3 former WDC's on the grid in 2009, in my view would have won the WDC in the Brawn. I am not saying Button was trained chimp that year or anyone could have won in it though, but its not even his best year in my opinion. 2011 stands out for me as his best.



#303 mnmracer

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 22:00

It's kind of sad how much slack Webber get from arm-chair experts (no one in the paddock seems to share this opinion) just so people don't have to acknowledge Vettel.



#304 ebc

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 22:36

It's kind of sad how much slack Webber get from arm-chair experts (no one in the paddock seems to share this opinion) just so people don't have to acknowledge Vettel.

 

I agree with this, and I still think Webber is better than Button. 



#305 NexusIcon

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 23:00

Kimi was my favourite driver but things largely out of his control have cast a bit of a shadow over that. I don't think he handled everything in the best possible way so, for that, I'd say he's dropped a little in my estimation.

Conversely, Romain who presumably has gone through the exact same non-payment issues as Kimi has continued fully motivated and is just getting stronger and stronger. He's really shot up in my estimation.

Alonso's fortitude seems to have deserted him this year.
Button seems to complain less the worse the car seems to the viewer.
I'm impressed with both Nico and Lewis at Merc. Good attitudes and definitely making the most of opportunities to do well.
Who can't be impressed by Hulkenberg?
Maldonado has been disappointing. Ok the car is clearly awful but he should be kicking his rookie team mate's backside.
Conversely, Bottas has put up a good fight against Maldonado.

Perez has flunked, despite the car. Let's not ignore the fact the Mclaren has out scored the Sauber this year so it's theoretically a better car than he one he shone in last year but he's looked awful to mediocre at best.

Massa has disappointed me. I thought he would've fought from race one to keep his spot.

Vetted is astonishing. Webber has been rubbish and that's been a surprise to me. I thought he'd want to go out in style.

Gutierrez has performed better than I thought he would. Ricciardo has been pretty poor since the Red Bull announcement and JEV has been anonymous all year.

No one in the bottom teams has really stood out. Chiton is the worst and Bianchi is the best, pretty much as expected.

The biggest surprise this year is just how few drivers are staying put for 2014.

#306 sennafan24

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 23:30

I agree with this, and I still think Webber is better than Button. 

Better qualifier, probably even now. Webber has not been half bad in qualifying lately, he just has to put up with one of if not the best qualifier on the grid as a teammate. Some weeks he has been pretty close to Seb, and that has gone unnoticed as Seb as great drivers do, consistently makes sure he is that bit ahead.

 

Button beats Webber in race trim and being a thinking driver, and would in my opinion beat him over the course of a season more often than not if they were teammates. As much as I may have discounted Button's 2011 above in the eyes of some, Button is a very strong all-round driver, and very clever. He lacks the raw pace of Lewis and Seb, but nets results with his gameplans, and safe approach to collisions.



#307 sennafan24

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 23:36

Kimi was my favourite driver but things largely out of his control have cast a bit of a shadow over that. I don't think he handled everything in the best possible way so, for that, I'd say he's dropped a little in my estimation.

 

Kimi is someone I rate highly, as a person and as a driver. 

 

But I believe Kimi was at his best around 2005, whilst much is made of fans rating Alonso as better than Seb in 2012 despite the latter winning the title, Kimi actually won a fans vote in 2005 over Alonso, despite Alonso winning the title. That is how much people rated Kimi in 2005 time, and whilst its hard to quantify, I do believe it was Kimi and Alonso who surpassed Schumi in ability around 2003-2006.

 

With that said, I do not rate Kimi the same as I did in that period, he must do something right as he seems to get on the podium out of nowhere in races, but he lacks something I cannot put my finger on, a certain pep that he has back at his peak. He is still a very fine driver, and top 5 on the grid, but 2013 I have had the feeling that he is not quite as good as he once was. I am open to being wrong though, as even myself is at a loss to explain why I feel that way. Romain has been outperforming him lately, so maybe I just have a bad taste due to recent form.



#308 Buttoneer

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 00:13

Back on topic please.



#309 Kingshark

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 00:33

Kimi is someone I rate highly, as a person and as a driver. 

 

But I believe Kimi was at his best around 2005, whilst much is made of fans rating Alonso as better than Seb in 2012 despite the latter winning the title, Kimi actually won a fans vote in 2005 over Alonso, despite Alonso winning the title. That is how much people rated Kimi in 2005 time, and whilst its hard to quantify, I do believe it was Kimi and Alonso who surpassed Schumi in ability around 2003-2006.

 

With that said, I do not rate Kimi the same as I did in that period, he must do something right as he seems to get on the podium out of nowhere in races, but he lacks something I cannot put my finger on, a certain pep that he has back at his peak. He is still a very fine driver, and top 5 on the grid, but 2013 I have had the feeling that he is not quite as good as he once was. I am open to being wrong though, as even myself is at a loss to explain why I feel that way. Romain has been outperforming him lately, so maybe I just have a bad taste due to recent form.

 

Kimi NEVER surpassed Michael's abilities.

 

Alonso probably did though, in 2006.



#310 Seano

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 00:41

Grosjean for me for sure. I would have binned him last year and I would have been utterly wrong.

 

Massa has also impressed me a lot over the couple of months. For the last few years I've said that he's more concerned about screwing over Hamilton than winning. Once the weight of the uncertainty of the Ferrari 2014 drive was lifted off his shoulders and he seems to be properly focused again - so much so that Fred felt forced to do that ridiculous overtake in the last race. Takes a lot to rattle Fred and the like, so good luck to Massa and Smedley in 2014. Lets hope Sir Frank's boys and girls can give them a half decent car next year.

 

Seano



#311 thomin

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 02:46

Tiers:

A) Vettel Alonso Räikkönen Rosberg Hamilton Hülkenberg Grosjean 

B) Massa Button Perez Webber diResta Sutil Ricciardo Bianchi

C) Everyone else

 

Comment:

Granted, it's hard to judge drivers in back marker teams, so me lumping most of them in tier C might very well be premature.

As for the rest, the plusses and minuses represent how my opinion has changed over the course of this season:

Alonso - This season, Alonso either isn't motivated, or he's getting old, I dunno, but he's missing that certain something. He's still very much up there among the best, but he doesn't seem to deliver stand out performances anymore.

Massa + He has been a very positive surprise for me. His main problem is that he doesn't always appear to be able to be 100% focused throughout a race, but speed wise he's up there with the best. 

Vettel + I always rated him despite all the detractors, but the way he's dominating at will this season has finally put him among the all time greats, RedBull be damned.

Webber - He has disappointed. Granted, he's driving next to one of the very best of this generation, if not of all time, but given his car, he should have fared better. I still put him in tier B, but only barely. 

Rosberg = I've always rated Rosberg, in fact I always liked him to the point that I feared that my opinion would be biased...I'm glad that he proved his worth this season. In terms of raw speed, I still see Hamilton slightly ahead, but in terms of race craft, Rosberg is top notch.

Hamilton = He started out better than I thought he would, but his performances have been somewhat flaky as of late, so overall he has delivered what I thought he would. But I see room for improvement there, which is good.

Hülkenberg + His performance during the second part of the season has been nothing but phenomenal. He's definitely carrying that car. It's interesting how my opinion of him has improved over the years. I thought he was hopelessly overrated back when he was at Williams, but slowly my opinion has turned around to the point that I'm putting him in the top tier this season. Sometimes it's nice to be proven wrong.

Button - He was certainly disappointing this season, while

Perez =  did pretty much as I expected. Both suffered from a bad car though, so that has to be factored in I guess.

Räikkönen - I did expect more of him, despite him having a decent season overall. I guess he appears to be a fair-weather sort of driver, because as soon as the Ferrari deal was announced, his performance seemed to wander off, just like in 2008 when Massa beat him and he didn't seem to be interested anymore. I think he will go down as the Finn who could have been as good as Mika or even better, but who lacked the work ethic to do so. Still, he's tremendously talented, so tier A for him. 

Grosjean + I always saw the raw speed in Grosjean, but I thought that his personality would be in his way. In that sense, he was the opposite of Räikkönen in that he was always over-motivated which often harmed him (similar to Perez I might add). But he seemed to have gotten over this, maybe him becoming a father had something to do with it. Be it as it may, he has to be reckoned with now.

diResta = apparently the grumpiest guy on the grid, but he's still doing a great job with that Force India.

Sutil = a very much underrated driver in my opinion. He's not phenomenal mind you, but he delivers and in the rain he can actually carry his car to places where it otherwise wouldn't belong. Plus, he's literally a throat-cutting bad-ass.

Bianchi = again, hard to rate a driver in a back marker car. Still, as far as I can tell he has given some very solid performances and I would like to see him in a quicker car.

Ricciardo + I think Ricciardo really has come into himself this season. I wasn't impressed with his previous attempts, but especially since being confirmed as Vettel's team mate for next year, he seems to have (re)found his speed.


Edited by thomin, 14 November 2013 - 02:48.


#312 v@sh

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 05:17

Gutierrez has performed better than I thought he would. Ricciardo has been pretty poor since the Red Bull announcement and JEV has been anonymous all year.

 

Have you even been watching the races? Ricciardo would have scored points in 4 of his past 6 races (if he didn't have the penalty in Japan and his car didn't brake down in Korea on the penultimate lap). His only poor race has probably been Bahrain. Where has JEV been? racing the Caterhams so it tells you how bad the car has been

 

Vettel - his speed and consistency has been amazing this year, does not get enough credit, his driving style suits the the tires and blown diffuser to a tee

Webber - has not changed, his driving style and inability to use the blown diffuser/bad luck/poor starts is why he has been so far behind Vettel, alas most fans will just see he is so far behind in points and think he is absolutely rubbish and should be retiring

 

I'm more interested in what Magnussen/Hulk (if he is in a Lotus)/Ricciardo will do next year. As Horner said, I think Ricciardo will surprise a lot of people and it will be also interesting how Vettel fares without the blown diffuser. He still has the Pirelli tires at least.



#313 eric2610

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 21:46

Grosjean: He has really made on or two steps up. He stoped his crashing and has become consistant.

 

Alonso: Never liked him anyway, but he is one of the top drivers of within the last 20 years. But his political behavior has made him more and more unlikable too me.

 

Hamilton: I must admit I never liked hin in his McLaren days. But since he is at Mercedes for me he has matured. In his McLaren days for me he was a fast driver who had luck, great speed and thought he was the next big superstar. Now with Mercedes he seems to have grown up und seems to think more before he does something. 

 

Vettel: Well we all new he was fast, but this season I must say he has shown that he is on another level than anyone else on the grid. He is a man now, a animal of prey. All the booing that went on seems to have made him stronger and stronger. This is the kind of driver who will be able to win a championship in a second class car when he is at his peak. But on the other hand, If you look at Webbers results in the RB9, Vettel might be doing just that alredy. This guy makes a normal car look like a supercar.

 

 

My opinions on other drivers have not really changed.



#314 Kingshark

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 22:10

Vettel: Well we all new he was fast, but this season I must say he has shown that he is on another level than anyone else on the grid. He is a man now, a animal of prey. All the booing that went on seems to have made him stronger and stronger. This is the kind of driver who will be able to win a championship in a second class car when he is at his peak. But on the other hand, If you look at Webbers results in the RB9, Vettel might be doing just that alredy. This guy makes a normal car look like a supercar.

 

Seriously?  :rolleyes: