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Quantum, The Cheque Is In The Post


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#751 Rinehart

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 16:01

Because if it works they make money. If it doesnt all they've done is be insulted by forum members.

 

I think you'll find what they've done is allowed key people to leave, debts to rise and the value of the team to fall along with some of their credibility (Genii who are supposed to be experts at attracting investment and creating value). Actually.



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#752 Fastcake

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 16:07

You never know, at the end of this saga Lotus may end up directly in contact with some of the investors supposedly part of Quantum. They may not get whatever deal Ijaz was promising originally, but as Ross has repeatedly said they lose nothing from keeping contact.



#753 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 16:18

I think you'll find what they've done is allowed key people to leave, debts to rise and the value of the team to fall along with some of their credibility (Genii who are supposed to be experts at attracting investment and creating value). Actually.

 

Would the staff have stayed and the finance stabilised without the Quantum saga? Show me where they're worse off because of Quantum, not that they continued to slide into the hole anyways.



#754 Rinehart

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 17:28

Would the staff have stayed and the finance stabilised without the Quantum saga? Show me where they're worse off because of Quantum, not that they continued to slide into the hole anyways.

We're not discussing what would have happened Ross...  :kiss:



#755 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 17:36

But that's my point. I don't think they're in any different an outcome than had Quantum not come along. So it was either maintain the current shitstorm or improve it. So it's Neutral-Win.



#756 dau

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 17:38

We're not discussing what would have happened Ross...  :kiss:

You are alleging their current situation - people leaving, debts rising, etc - has something to do with them continuing to negotiate with Ijaz. So he's right to ask you to put your money where your mo....errr...fingers are. You are the one speculating here.

 

Returning to facts, there weren't investors queuing up in Enstone to throw money at Lotus, just to be ignored because Lopez wanted to talk to Quantum rather than all those serious companies. They aren't worse off because they are still pursuing a Quantum deal. Well, unless you have some new information, of course. Like interested investors being turned away by the Quantum saga or something like that?



#757 pup

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 17:58

Would the staff have stayed and the finance stabilised without the Quantum saga? Show me where they're worse off because of Quantum, not that they continued to slide into the hole anyways.

You could argue that they were running the team under the assumption that the deal would go through; i.e., that they could spend without consequence and settle their accounts once the money came through.  Had they run the team from the start under the assumption that they had to stay within budget, they probably wouldn't have been as competitive, but neither would they have ended up in a financial crisis that (rightfully) panicked the staff.


Edited by pup, 17 January 2014 - 18:00.


#758 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 18:10

They've been overspending for a while though. You could just as easily point the finger at the Honeywell shenanigans or things from 2013.



#759 eronrules

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 19:11

to me, this whole LotusF1-Quantum saga can be summed up like this

 

 

fast forward to  1:42 or click here



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#760 boldhakka

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 05:55

So these guys come back into play every time there's increased press about LotusF1's viability as a going concern. Wonder if they have Ijaz on a retainer of some sort.

#761 sopa

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 09:29

The main issue with still pursuing Quantum deal is time management. Of course as has been put here - if they didn't pursue it, they would not be worse off, because they still would have no deal. BUT have they spent valuable time on trying to reach a deal with them, while the same people, who are working on making THIS deal happen, could have been involved in finding other partners?



#762 Jvr

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 09:31

This whole episode makes me wonder what on earth is happening at Lotus, the whole story is like from "The Bold and the Beautiful"... After all the Quantum and driver selection mess last year Carter who seems to be Andy Ruhan's man replaces Louis as the CEO of the team, then Lopez declares that Quantum deal is dead and buried only to be followed by Ijaz coming again in the headlines declaring opposite but admitting that original setup was not workable and bids Ruhan to confirm his story which he does a day later than Ijaz promised. Meanwhile the team misses first testing session but claims it is actually better this way. At the same time braindrain continues...

What next? The return of Flavio?

Edited by Jvr, 18 January 2014 - 09:39.


#763 Fabien Pousset

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 16:06

According to Eurosport, Lopez said the deal is dead.



#764 quidam

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 08:18

According to Eurosport, Lopez said the deal is dead.

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/112169



#765 Donka

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 08:48

So these guys come back into play every time there's increased press about LotusF1's viability as a going concern. Wonder if they have Ijaz on a retainer of some sort.

 

This.  They are a "convenient distraction".



#766 Rinehart

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 09:13

But that's my point. I don't think they're in any different an outcome than had Quantum not come along. So it was either maintain the current shitstorm or improve it. So it's Neutral-Win.

But they would be in a different position entirely had they secured genuine investment of the scale they chased with Quantum. And to remind you, this is supposedly what Genni do and what they are targeting to do in F1. 



#767 Rinehart

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 09:16

You are alleging their current situation - people leaving, debts rising, etc - has something to do with them continuing to negotiate with Ijaz. So he's right to ask you to put your money where your mo....errr...fingers are. You are the one speculating here.

 

See post 771. Self evidently if they had secured serious investment from Quantum or elsewhere they wouldn't be it the same situation they are now. 

 

And in answer to your point of speculation - I hardly think that the shenanigans around Lotus courting of Quantum and subsequent revelations that they are in serious debt/not paying suppliers being so PUBLIC has helped Genni's image or their chances of securing major investment elsewhere. For a start, very basically using the basic principles of business, another investor knows what cards Genii is holding. 


Edited by Rinehart, 20 January 2014 - 09:23.


#768 Slackbladder

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 09:45

According to Eurosport, Lopez said the deal is dead.

 

I'm shocked...shocked.. I tell yee.



#769 taran

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 10:04

Would the staff have stayed and the finance stabilised without the Quantum saga? Show me where they're worse off because of Quantum, not that they continued to slide into the hole anyways.

 

It would be impossible for a forum poster to prove it but it seems logical to me that Lotus would not be able to allocate sponsor acquisition resources to other possible investors because these were assigned to Quantum. By focusing on Quantum, they missed other opportunities or failed to develop other opportunities.

 

You can also look towards the hit on their reputation. If googlers can find out that Iljaz is a shady character with definitive pizza connections, why didn't Genii's due dilligence system work? I would be very wary about investing my money with a fund that can't recognize the difference between solid investments and a run down pizza parlour linked to a scam artist. 

 

I would also have serious doubts about Genii taken up such heavy debts/losses and then trying to reconcile them as marketing expenses. That isn't as easy as just swapping them to a different tax bracket. I'd also be afraid Genii will attempt to push these losses on their clients by raising the price of their services. 

 

However you look at it, Lopez, Lotus and Genii are looking like fools because of this saga. Sure, it has happened before (just look at BMW.Sauber and Quadbak) but it always means someone dropped the ball and/or was desperate for cash and thus willing to believe in Santa, the tooth fairy and leprechauns with pots of gold.



#770 BoozeBaron

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 12:48

They did announce today (20th) that they've signed on with Saxo Bank... I only know them from the Tour de France... but at least that's something ...  :rolleyes: 

 

http://www1.skysport...anish-saxo-bank



#771 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 12:56

It would be impossible for a forum poster to prove it but it seems logical to me that Lotus would not be able to allocate sponsor acquisition resources to other possible investors because these were assigned to Quantum. By focusing on Quantum, they missed other opportunities or failed to develop other opportunities.

 

 

 

But that goes back to my joke about them having enough employees to multitask. There will be people whose job it is to talk to new leads, there will be another layer to develop those leads, there will be another layer to actually put together the deal. There will be another group that handles the sponsor once they're signed and sending money.

I don't think any of those people were involved on the Quantum thing. If it was investment/ownership it probably went straight to being handled by GENII/Lopez.

 

However if we go back to the Honeywell saga, that definitely tied up their time that may have been spent on something else.



#772 Rinehart

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 13:26

The damage isn't about time or resource its about reputation. This is basic stuff.



#773 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 13:29

It's unfortunate that none of you will now invest in the team, yes. But I think looking at this calmly Quantum comes out of it a lot worse than Lotus. This is another mark against Ijaz. Lotuz/GENII started the money talks to try to flush them out and see if they were going to commit or not. I don't think they were naive in this one. Unlike the Honeywell saga.



#774 Jvr

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 14:27

It's unfortunate that none of you will now invest in the team, yes. But I think looking at this calmly Quantum comes out of it a lot worse than Lotus. This is another mark against Ijaz. Lotuz/GENII started the money talks to try to flush them out and see if they were going to commit or not. I don't think they were naive in this one. Unlike the Honeywell saga.

It seems the whole Quantum Racing was just set up for this episode (scam some might call it) and Ijaz seems to have quite a reputation already before this so no harm done in that front, IMO. The worst impact is on GENII/Lopez/Lotus side for being associated with this kind of a "deal", i.e. putting it bluntly to look like complete fools.

But Lopez seems too smart to be fooled in this way so it leaves two options:

1. There was some real money behind Quantum but it was so hot that it did not get cleared through the banking system.
2. Ijaz has always been Lopez's servant and set the whole thing up to benefit GENII/Lopez/Lux to gain shield against the debtors and artificially pump up the market value of Lotus in the eyes of real investors, e.g. Renault.

So for these reasons I believe the most damage and loss of credibility is on GENII/Lopez/Lux side since on the other side there was not really anything to lose.

Edited by Jvr, 20 January 2014 - 14:29.


#775 alfa1

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 14:37

Ignoring the tiny sponsorship "toe in the water" from Saxo, todays news regarding this thread seems to revolve around the following:

 

"We want to bring stability over the long-term for this team.

With the shareholders we went through a lot of discussions and decisions, and a restructuring process over the last weeks.

I think that the team is in good shape now definitely with some guarantees over the operational finance needs."

The team has undergone a management reshuffle over the winter with CEO Patrick Louis being replaced by Matthew Carter, a close ally of minority shareholder Andrew Ruhan.

 

Lotus' lengthy discussions with Quantum Motorsports are ongoing...

 

 

Seems to defy the laws of physics, that does.

A "restructuring" of the staff, and magically the financial problems are over??!?!?!/?!?!?



#776 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 16:04

Ruhan is now part of GENII isn't he? Or was he always?



#777 quidam

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 17:51

New :

 

http://grandprix247....-and-formula-1/



#778 Maustinsj

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 18:10

New :

http://grandprix247....-and-formula-1/


You have been warned fellow forummers!!!

#779 Slackbladder

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 19:23

New :

http://grandprix247....-and-formula-1/


Can you spell the word 'deluded'?

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#780 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 19:31

It fits with some of the rumours though. The Sultan of Brunei's family, the compliance issues in Luxembourg(they're very strict), etc. 



#781 Jvr

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 20:03

You have been warned fellow forummers!!!

Yes. This is my favourite chapter:

Question: "How will you respond to those who have unfairly criticized you?"

Answer: "When we finish the Lotus financing, we will take each and every one of those bloggers and journalists who slandered me to task for their irresponsible behavior. Then we will see how big their mouths are. My public life prior to Formula One entailed difficult and complex citizen diplomatic efforts to bring corrupt politicians in my father’s homeland of Pakistan to account. When you hold bad people accountable for what they did wrong, be sure they will lash out – truthfully or not – with every possible mudslinging accusation that is possible. And that is what they did. None of it stuck, or I wouldn’t be able to conduct my business affairs anymore. But I’ve now had enough of the mudslinging with impunity – we will insure these people are dealt with to the fullest extent of the law. My message to these bloggerheads and irresponsible journalists is crystal clear – if you can’t take the time to ascertain the truth before you write, then don’t write. And if you don’t understand what you are reading, then don’t report it."

Edited by Jvr, 20 January 2014 - 20:12.


#782 Maustinsj

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 20:07

Yes. This is my favourite chapter:

Question: "How will you respond to those who have unfairly criticized you?"

Answer: "When we finish the Lotus financing, we will take each and every one of those bloggers and journalists who slandered me to task for their irresponsible behavior. Then we will see how big their mouths are."

 

Your days are numbered... :p



#783 Jvr

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 20:14

Your days are numbered... :p


No need to be too concerned, it is only AFTER when Ijaz and Quantum finish the deal with Lotus when they sue everybody criticizing the deal unfairly.

Next week?

Edited by Jvr, 20 January 2014 - 20:27.


#784 Donka

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 22:48

Lopez said the deal failed, it did, and he confirms it here.  Funny how that works.  But I'll sue you if my Track II effort succeeds.  :stoned:


Edited by Donka, 20 January 2014 - 22:49.


#785 BoozeBaron

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 06:02

 

Excellent..

 

This should be front page, every day, till Melbourne - pounding this scum into submission -

 

He claims to be 'villified' in the press? Well, then don't stand up in front of 100M-200M ppl on telly saying you're gonna wire funds (WEEK AFTER WEEK) - when clearly, you can't/didn't/won't... You're a liar and a con -

 

It still says on his own site, he 'owns Lotus" - Bawahahahaha....

 

How do ppl get away with this stuff?

 

 



#786 Wander

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 08:39

Don't worry guys. I'm sure the deal will be done next week!

 

You know what? I'll be truly impressed only when this thing stretches over a full calendar year. Any bets?



#787 Murl

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:23

It fits with some of the rumours though. The Sultan of Brunei's family, the compliance issues in Luxembourg(they're very strict), etc. 

You are joking?

 

(very dry, if so)



#788 Rinehart

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:25

OMG! He certainly did a good job of separating "Fact from Fiction". Its all fiction.



#789 Buttoneer

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:10

Excellent..

 

This should be front page, every day, till Melbourne - pounding this scum into submission -

 

He claims to be 'villified' in the press? Well, then don't stand up in front of 100M-200M ppl on telly saying you're gonna wire funds (WEEK AFTER WEEK) - when clearly, you can't/didn't/won't... You're a liar and a con -

 

It still says on his own site, he 'owns Lotus" - Bawahahahaha....

 

How do ppl get away with this stuff?

Doesn't matter whether he's right or not, he can break people just by challenging them.  It costs a lot of money to defend a defamation claim and it's often much easier to just withdraw or rescind things which are contentious and pay an amount of damages which might be smaller than a bill from Mishcon de Reya.

 

But it does serve as a reminder that we need to mindful of avoiding definite comments like 'x is a liar' unless you are prepared to defend it or demonstrate it.



#790 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:16

You are joking?

 

(very dry, if so)

 

Were there not rumours that the money was coming from Abu Dhabi and the Sultan of Brunei's family? I think part of that was money from Kuwait/Q8 Petroleum. 



#791 Rinehart

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 14:38

Were there not rumours that the money was coming from Abu Dhabi and the Sultan of Brunei's family? I think part of that was money from Kuwait/Q8 Petroleum. 

Rumours only from Ijaz that some of the money was coming from certain Royal families and rumours only from Ijaz that its now not. And rumours only from Ijaz that its now coming from other places and its going to be even bigger. A rumour confirming a rumour followed by another rumour doesn't substantiate a rumour in my book.

 

Bottom line is that there are some people who have decided that their is some truth and merit in this deal and possibly a lot of us will be proven wrong (and by the sounds of Ijaz, our backsides sued to Sunday). And there are others that think the whole thing is a farcical and somewhat fictional mess that has done nothing for the reputation of Genii or the stability of LotusF1. I know which side of the fence I'm on. 



#792 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 14:55

There's probably room in the middle of those two positions. But some of the Truth Squad are as dug in as Saward. 



#793 Gemini

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 16:00

 

 

Payment in US Treasury Bonds?

 

Were their going to pay Kimi and employees with this Treasury Bonds? hehe

 

Anyway... if Hollywood wants another F1 movie, forget "Rush", forget loud cars and racing.... they should do a movie about this whole story.

 

I have two strong candidates for main role:

 

1)Matt Damon

(proven in "The Informant!")

2)Leonardo di Caprio

(proven in "Catch me  if you can")

 

Both would need a bit of sun tan, little make up and they are ready to go

 

 

Yeah... any of them would cost fortune to hire, but hey... maybe they would accept being paid in US Treasury bonds?


Edited by Gemini, 21 January 2014 - 16:02.


#794 Murl

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 18:48

There's probably room in the middle of those two positions. But some of the Truth Squad are as dug in as Saward. 

Yeah ok, thanks for pointing that out..

(I'm finding it hard to be as open-minded about this as you are)



#795 ATM

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 19:03

Right, so now we're all going to hide our grand-daddy's golden watch in the basement, in fear of being sued by Mr. Ijaz. Well, if I get sued,  they can dig by basement as long as they like because a. my grand-daddy didn't have a golden watch and b. I don't have a basement.

Should Mr. Ijaz be reading this, I live in Bucharest, Romania, and if he wants to start digging, I'll provide the land, he should come with his own shovel. I need a basement anyway. 

 

Now on a serious note, how big is that SAXO Bank deal? I know it's just for 1 year for the time being, but is it a tiny sponsor  (front wing logo) deal, or is it a big side-pods/air intake deal?

Hope this money does keep the boat afloat for the Melbourne target. 



#796 Alburaq

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 19:08

For now, it's just a small rear wing endplate deal... but this is just the 'hybrid' R31 with the 2013 livery and maybe, in the new livery, Saxo bank will take more space and/or take a much bigger space if the sponsorship is successful
 

 

Edited by Alburaq, 21 January 2014 - 19:09.


#797 Hans V

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 19:13

Sawards goes on: http://joesaward.wor...#comment-176936

 

He writes about checking basic info and how useless anyone who doesn't call themselves a journalist is at this. Still he doesn't seem to have any facts when he states; "All the parties agree that at one point a huge sum of money in government bonds did arrive in a Genii Partners bank account in Luxembourg, only for the bank in question to send the money back because it did not have a suitable banking licence to accept it". I may not be an expert on banking, but I'm fairly sure that it should be possible to find a Swiss bank with the necessary credentials to receive large sums of money, especially within seven months. BTW, what is "a huge sum of money in government bonds"? ;) The story has been quite amusing but is now becoming just sad.      



#798 Maustinsj

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 19:16

Sawards goes on: http://joesaward.wor...#comment-176936

 

He writes about checking basic info and how useless anyone who doesn't call themselves a journalist is at this. Still he doesn't seem to have any facts when he states; "All the parties agree that at one point a huge sum of money in government bonds did arrive in a Genii Partners bank account in Luxembourg, only for the bank in question to send the money back because it did not have a suitable banking licence to accept it". I may not be an expert on banking, but I'm fairly sure that it should be possible to find a Swiss bank with the necessary credentials to receive large sums of money, especially within seven months. BTW, what is "a huge sum of money in government bonds"?  ;) The story has been quite amusing but is now becoming just sad.      

 

Keep digging Joe  :wave:



#799 Claudius

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 19:25

Now after the whole charade has been draging on for months with no money to be seen, the clown is threatining to sue every "bloggerhead" who was sceptical of the deal.

The guy is incredible, according to him nobody is allowed to question or accuse him of anything despite empty promises.

 

I wish I had a few millions and a newspaper, I would print articles about this clown every day and hope he sues me...



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#800 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 19:30

And that's why you have neither millions nor a newspaper.

 

Saward is being a bit snippy. I find his comment replies funny. I can't tell if they're nasty or just dense. And people accuse me of one liners...


Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 21 January 2014 - 19:31.