138 replies to this topic

[Thomas99]

Any news?

[f1RacingForever]

Alonso is no wimp. If he is reasonably comfortable then he will race. We just dont know if that will be the case.

[jstrains]

I think he will decide during FP1...if the pain continues, then no

[halifaxf1fan]

If Alonso is not 100% fit and still has back or dizzyness issues then if I were Luca, I'd pull him out of the next race at least, possibly both. 

 

Theres not much to lose and next year is more important.

 

Either way, get well soon Fernando!

 

Smart way to proceed if it is a concussion.

[Gorma]

No point in taking chances since there is a risk (although small) that both Kimi and Fernando won't be fit for next season. 

[virtualr]

He should not race and deserves to take the season off. I bet he cant wait to stop driving that donkey anyway.

[RosannaG]

He should not race and deserves to take the season off. I bet he cant wait to stop driving that donkey anyway.

 

[ArkZ]

http://formula1.ferr...tin-strong-sign

Monte view.

[RosannaG]

http://formula1.ferr...tin-strong-sign

Monte view.

 

I guess he has more info that we do... 

[fabr68]

If Alonso in not fully fit, it would be very stupid from his side to race this weekend... And dangerous too, not only for him but also for the rest of the grid.

Come on, lets not be dramatic. How is back pain dangerous to the rest of the grid? It is not like Alonso will eject from his seat in the middle of the race if his back hurts a bit.

The only danger is having some idiot crash into him and worsening his injury.

[RosannaG]

Come on, lets not be dramatic. How is back pain dangerous to the rest of the grid? It is not like Alonso will eject from his seat in the middle of the race if his back hurts a bit.

The only danger is having some idiot crash into him and worsening his injury.

 

I don't think I was being dramatic.

 

It's not only his back pain, he is suffering from dizziness, that's why I sad what I said...

[OfficeLinebacker]

Neither was Mika Salo in 1999. There are places in the WCC to worry about. Dropping to fourth could easily cost Domenicali his job. I think they will be thinking about these things, and hoping like hell that Alonso recovers.

When I read this, I involuntarily read it to myself in Jarno Trulli's accent and it came out 'oping like a-hell.'

[kosmos]

I don't think I was being dramatic.

 

It's not only his back pain, he is suffering from dizziness, that's why I sad what I said...

 

If he is suffering from dizziness by friday, he will not drive, that is common sense.

[William Hunt]

what if Alonso would decide he is not fit enough on Friday after practice 1, who will replace him? Bianchi is loaned at to Marussia. Kovalainen? de le Rosa? Probably de la Rosa I guess

Edited by William Hunt, 12 November 2013 - 16:43.

[RosannaG]

If he is suffering from dizziness by friday, he will not drive, that is common sense.

 

So let's hope his dizziness goes away and he can drive normally this weekend. 

Edited by RosannaG, 12 November 2013 - 16:43.

[Nemo1965]

I've got a question. I am extremely sceptical about the numbers of G that are thrown about the incident. Yeah, Alonso made a good jump, but I read 28 G somewhere? I can hardly believe that. I mean: John Stapp got blown veins and broken ligaments by enduring lower forces than that...

[Gorma]

I've got a question. I am extremely sceptical about the numbers of G that are thrown about the incident. Yeah, Alonso made a good jump, but I read 28 G somewhere? I can hardly believe that. I mean: John Stapp got blown veins and broken ligaments by enduring lower forces than that...

It was less than 15 G. The sensor was installed improperly.

Edited by Gorma, 12 November 2013 - 18:14.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I've got a question. I am extremely sceptical about the numbers of G that are thrown about the incident. Yeah, Alonso made a good jump, but I read 28 G somewhere? I can hardly believe that. I mean: John Stapp got blown veins and broken ligaments by enduring lower forces than that...

 

Sustained vs instantaneous.

[Nemo1965]

That makes sense... 

[Nonesuch]

I've got a question. I am extremely sceptical about the numbers of G that are thrown about the incident. Yeah, Alonso made a good jump, but I read 28 G somewhere? I can hardly believe that. I mean: John Stapp got blown veins and broken ligaments by enduring lower forces than that...

 

It was only for a very brief moment, and 28G isn't even all that when you compare it to Kenny Bräck's IRL crash at Texas Motor Speedway which was reported to be well in excess of 200G.

 

[redreni]

what if Alonso would decide he is not fit enough on Friday after practice 1, who will replace him? Bianchi is loaned at to Marussia. Kovalainen? de le Rosa? Probably de la Rosa I guess

Not sure if the rules would permit Bianchi to switch cars after FP1? I don‘t see why not. Ferrari could always solve the contractual issue by writing a cheque. Or they could just take the precaution of having Kobayashi there on standby. Assuming they are competant enough to have done a seat fitting with either driver. If not, de la Rosa it would have to be

[Fontainebleau]

It was less than 15 G. The sensor was installed improperly.

As far as I know, only AmuS has stated such a thing, Ferrari never confirmed it. But happy to learn otherwise

[prty]

It was only for a very brief moment, and 28G isn't even all that when you compare it to Kenny Bräck's IRL crash at Texas Motor Speedway which was reported to be well in excess of 200G.

 

 

Well it also depends on which direction they are applied in, don't you think?

 

[undersquare]

It was only for a very brief moment, and 28G isn't even all that when you compare it to Kenny Bräck's IRL crash at Texas Motor Speedway which was reported to be well in excess of 200G.

 

So much depends on the direction [edit as prty says] and posture.  If the load goes into seatbelts they stretch and with these short durations of G that means the driver sees a much lower G than the car,

 

With Alonso's hit on the floor there's almost nothing between the impact and his spine, and his spine was curved over already in the seat so the axial shock can easily damage the spinal cord as well as vertebrae and discs.  It could even affect the brain stem possibly.

 

Time the FIA looked at this really.  The posture is dangerous, and sitting on the floor is risky too.

Edited by undersquare, 12 November 2013 - 19:18.

[pingu666]

been a few cases over the recent years of spinal injury from a vertical load in various catagories :/

[SonJR]

Good on Fernando to give it a try. Luckily for him Austin is first. Even if it's up and down due to elevation, the track seems rather smooth. Bumpy Interlagos might be more of a teeth biter though.

[Nemo1965]

So much depends on the direction [edit as prty says] and posture.  If the load goes into seatbelts they stretch and with these short durations of G that means the driver sees a much lower G than the car,

 

With Alonso's hit on the floor there's almost nothing between the impact and his spine, and his spine was curved over already in the seat so the axial shock can easily damage the spinal cord as well as vertebrae and discs.  It could even affect the brain stem possibly.

 

Time the FIA looked at this really.  The posture is dangerous, and sitting on the floor is risky too.

 

That is a very good point! I am a teaching pro at tennis and have emerged myself in a lot of research about how the spin in the human body works and should work. I never thought about how the drivers are positioned in their cars in relation to their spine. If indeed the drivers are laying down with a curved spine (which, ergonomically I would find either laughable incompetent or criminally negligent of the designers), that is very worrying indeed.

 

Laying down is not such a big issue. The biggest threat would be if the head is tilted unnaturally backward on top of the spine. You can put a human being in a very strange position, but if the head is tilted in the right way (meaning: slightly slanted forward), it will be fine. This interview with Rosberg, however, is troublesome because he says he has to tilt his head back to see the corners sometimes.

[dau]

So much depends on the direction [edit as prty says] and posture.  If the load goes into seatbelts they stretch and with these short durations of G that means the driver sees a much lower G than the car,

 

With Alonso's hit on the floor there's almost nothing between the impact and his spine, and his spine was curved over already in the seat so the axial shock can easily damage the spinal cord as well as vertebrae and discs.  It could even affect the brain stem possibly.

 

Time the FIA looked at this really.  The posture is dangerous, and sitting on the floor is risky too.

What posture would you suggest? Especially considering you'd also have to take into account high speed head-on crashes or similar.

 

What's the problem with a curved spine anyway? They're sitting in custom-molded seats which perfectly support their vertebrae, at least if the seat was fitted correctly.

[Nemo1965]

What posture would you suggest? Especially considering you'd also have to take into account high speed head-on crashes or similar.

 

What's the problem with a curved spine anyway? They're sitting in custom-molded seats which perfectly support their vertebrae, at least if the seat was fitted correctly.

 

Like I said in my post above: the lying position is not the problem, it is the relation between neck and spine that is critical. What you don't want to have is a spine that is restricted to move or flex and a skull that bounces directly on the spine. My suggestion, if the FIA would ever want to regulate something like this, would be a minimal height of the head in relation to the front wheels.

[redreni]

Like I said in my post above: the lying position is not the problem, it is the relation between neck and spine that is critical. What you don't want to have is a spine that is restricted to move or flex and a skull that bounces directly on the spine. My suggestion, if the FIA would ever want to regulate something like this, would be a minimal height of the head in relation to the front wheels.

I think there have been enough problems now for this to be seriously looked into. I don‘t agree that there has been any negligence on the part of the designers. Over the history of F1, and single seater racing generally, the driving position has evolved from a completely upright sitting position in the 50s to the lying down position we have now, and it‘s because designers found it to their advantage to put the drivers as low down as possible. It‘s a race, so they have to do whatever is fastest.

In the mid 80s the designers found it advantagous to move the drivers further and further forward in the car and to put the footbox right at the front of the nosecone. Drivers used to smash up their ankles and feet even from relatively minor incidents, and big crashes used to end with the undefying sight of drivers‘ legs and feet protruding at crazy angles from the mangled front end of their cars. The regulations were changed to move the drivers back a bit and front impact tests were brought in.

So we have precedent for regulating driver positioning within the car for safety. I don‘t know what the best solution is, but I can‘t beleive if the FIA Institute looks into it they will find nothing can be done. The only problem I can see with raising the driver‘s head relative to the front wheels is it may decrease the lateral protection offered by the cockpit shrouds and HANS and increase the risk of the driver‘s head being struck by a foreign object in an accident. Unless, that is, the cockpit sides are raised as well to compensate.

Edited by redreni, 13 November 2013 - 09:46.

[Nemo1965]

I think there have been enough problems now for this to be seriously looked into. I don‘t agree that there has been any negligence on the part of the designers. Over the history of F1, and single seater racing generally, the driving position has evolved from a completely upright sitting position in the 50s to the lying down position we have now, and it‘s because designers found it to their advantage to put the drivers as low down as possible. It‘s a race, so they have to do whatever is fastest.

In the mid 80s the designers found it advantagous to move the drivers further and further forward in the car and to put the footbox right at the front of the nosecone. Drivers used to smash up their ankles and feet even from relatively minor incidents, and big crashes used to end with the undefying sight of drivers‘ legs and feet protruding at crazy angles from the mangled front end of their cars. The regulations were changed to move the drivers back a bit and front impact tests were brought in.

So we have precedent for regulating driver positioning within the car for safety. I don‘t know what the best solution is, but I can‘t beleive if the FIA Institute looks into it they will find nothing can be done. The only problem I can see with raising the driver‘s head relative to the front wheels is it may decrease the lateral protection offered by the cockpit shrouds and HANS and increase the risk of the driver‘s head being struck by a foreign object in an accident. Unless, that is, the cockpit sides are raised as well to compensate.

 

I am not a engineer, not even an ergonomics-specialist. But as you say: if the FIA institute looks into this, they can find a good solution... AND... perhaps even, with one sweep solve some other issues as well. As I understand it, KERS and DRS have been implemented because the 'heavy point' of ground-effect of F1 cars (after the banning of skirts and curved sidepods) have switched from the back of the car to the front of the car. The problem AFAIK is that if the flow over the front wing is all important, slight disturbances of the airflow make following another car difficult, overtaking difficult, hence DRS and KERS. And now there is even a perceived esthetic problems with the F1 cars of 2014, because by trying to claw back the front end downforce the FIA wrenched away, the engineers 'have to' design noses that look at that of Otto from Spongebob...

 

Perhaps, I am thinking, a mandatory 'healthy' seating position of the drivers could, under the blanket of safety, change a lot of problems about 'providing a good show' as well...  

Edited by Nemo1965, 13 November 2013 - 11:40.

[Nemo1965]

PS:

And lets not forget the incident itself, in which Alonso got hurt, has also to do with the seating position. Vergne was obviously sincere that he just not saw Alonso untill it was too late... Much to do with the seating position, I think...

[undersquare]

What posture would you suggest? Especially considering you'd also have to take into account high speed head-on crashes or similar.

 

What's the problem with a curved spine anyway? They're sitting in custom-molded seats which perfectly support their vertebrae, at least if the seat was fitted correctly.

It's not difficult.  At the moment they have the driver sit with a curved spine and mould the seat to him.  The foam may seem hard normally but under accident loads it will give.  Then consider the structure of the spine:

 

 

When the spine is bent the front edges of the vertebrae are close to touching, so the discs don't have much scope to absorb shock as they do normally.  Pressure in the discs rises to they can herniate and put pressure on the spinal cord. Then when there's a blow to the underside of the pelvis the gaps close up and the spine goes solid.  A shockwave can travel up it, and the bend can increase damaging discs and breaking the front edges off the vertebrae.  The head is floating around on a solid column to some extent.

 

Even without an accident it's a very dangerous way to sit when you're being bounced up and down, that's why there are so many back problems.

 

All they have to do is mould the seats with the spine supported in more of a straight line, and have an energy-absorbing pad to sit on.  Only the FIA can do it of course, because it costs space in the car, but it's quite easy.  To manage the angles through the neck they might have to sit more upright again, like in the good old days.

[Nemo1965]

Nice post, Undersquare. Considering how the 'loading' works of the spine under a weight, ofcourse a complete upright position of the back would be best, haha.

But now serious: I think, judging from my experience as a tenniscoach, that an angle of 45 degrees of the upperbody in relation the legs would be best. It's the perfect middle between the horizontal and the vertical, which means that gravitational pulls or bumps would have a good long distance to either go up, down, or along the spine. Also, an angle of 45 degrees would mean a slight forward tilting of the head, which would mean enough room between the skull and the spine.

 

For the engineers that would mean they could still pull the feet of the drivers up... But if the FIA regulate that the line of the top of the helmet should go under the line of the toes and the rollbar (or something), they could prevent another silly or dangerous seating position.

[fisssssi]

Isn't it Martin Brundle who loves to quip about how he is 2 inches shorter now that before his F1 racing career, due to all the loads on his back compressing the spine over the years?

[SophieB]

Hmmn.

 

@JennieGow3m

No Fernando Alonso presser today. Not sure where he is and why he's not speaking.... Bia,Dir, Gut, Kov, Mal, Per in FIA presser #f1

 

edited to add:

 

@JennieGow 35m

Alonso will be here at @circuitamericas for an FIA medical check then leaving again either* media commitments. Medical update to follow...#f1

 

*I think she probably meant to type 'after' instead of 'either' or the sentence doesn't make sense.

[RosannaG]

Fernando Alonso got the OK from the doctors 

 

http://t.co/m9Jp5yDpXa

[as65p]

Although not taking any painkillers for his back, he has elected to skip media commitments at the track on Thursday and has instead chosen to return to his hotel to aid his recovery.

 

Smart choice. No painkillers needed if the pain itself can be avoided.

[krumpli12]

Although not taking any painkillers for his back, he has elected to skip media commitments at the track on Thursday and has instead chosen to return to his hotel to aid his recovery.

 

Smart choice. No painkillers needed if the pain itself can be avoided.

 

Creative use of a back injury