82 replies to this topic

[garagetinkerer]

http://en.espnf1.com...ory/134239.html

 

Now this is something that a lot of people wanted... for RBR to slip. Any thoughts?

 

I still think that the ones who do their jobs best should win... whosoever it is, well that is my opinion. So if Mercedes/ Ferrari/ Williams (a Mercedes powered team now) wins, i'll be more than willing to praise what needs be praised. On the other hand, if RBR delivers another blow to the competition, well, that has to be quite something,what with rule changes and all.

[MikeV1987]

They said the same about the 12' and 13' cars.

Edited by MikeV1987, 07 November 2013 - 17:42.

[DrF]

Yeah, right. Red Bull have 2014 sewn up already. No point in watching.

[EthanM]

I think RBR worked a lot on the crucial issue for 2014 -> traction

Newey is just ... you know ... having fun

[RosannaG]

Mr. Newey, with all due respect... 

 

[DrF]

Red Bull can fully focus on 2014 while their main rivals battle for the scraps.

They are already ahead.

Edited by DrF, 07 November 2013 - 18:10.

[skc]

I've always found it odd how people hate Redbull for winning instead of hating the rest of the field for being poor at their own jobs.

[Borko]

Yeah, sure, just like Vettel had a "problem" last year in Korea.

[Fonzey]

Haha that old Newey chestnut. Every year he's said the same.

[Kingshark]

I think that Mercedes will surpass Red Bull next year to become the top dog in Formula 1. No evidence, just a gut feeling.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Well, paddock talk is that 2014 will be an engine championship. So that should help Mercedes and Ferrari get closer as Renault is supposedly the weakest engine for 2014.

[quasi C]

Is it that time of the year again? comes around so fast!

[SealTheDiffuser]

Well, paddock talk is that 2014 will be an engine championship. So that should help Mercedes and Ferrari get closer as Renault is supposedly the weakest engine for 2014.

 

no, Ferrari engine will have the weakest overall performance.

[Nonesuch]

Well, paddock talk is that 2014 will be an engine championship. So that should help Mercedes and Ferrari get closer as Renault is supposedly the weakest engine for 2014.

 

Last month people were saying they 'knew' Ferrari was 'behind' in the engine development.

 

I suppose it's all up in the air at this point, and nobody really knows - though some still claim to be 'sure'.

 

Should be exciting - though I have little doubt they'll equalize before long.

Edited by Nonesuch, 07 November 2013 - 18:45.

[steferrari]

I can't believe how some people can make sentences about the Ferrari engine, when we haven't heard/seen anything about it yet... bah...

Regarding Newey... Red Bull are the best, but frankly I consider them quite false people... all the time they want to make people believe that they have problems (often happens in races as well, just listen to their team radios) and in the end nothing (obviously) happens (not to the car that they care at least), so I have serious doubts that Newey is saying the truth.

 

As a Ferrari fan I hope they will be behind us though, and I'm sure other teams fans wish the same.

Edited by steferrari, 07 November 2013 - 19:07.

[OvDrone]

I'll reserve my judgement for Melbourne (or Sakhir *sigh*, whichever).

 

.....aaaaaaand it's Vettel on the podium. At least.

 

...

 

Then the pundits will be all like: 'let's wait for the first three races before making rash decisions...'.

 

Then it's: 'wait 'till the first European rounds'.

 

'The Hungaroring is the last race before the summer break, the circuit which eluded a Seb win for five years yadda yadda' *spolier - he wins it.

 

Add some 'Spa and Monza are definitely not Red Bull tracks'.

 

Mix it up with some Renault-style alternator failures plus a tighter a la 2010 grid and it's -

 

- the inaugural Russian Grand Prix with Vettel, Hamilton, Rosberg, Alonso and Raikkonen in the mix for the championship... who will win?! WHO?!!/crofty

 

And at the conclusion in Interlagos, cue in flashbacks to Abu Dhabi '10 and Interlagos '12 which result in the Horner & Marko end'o'season mustache twirl and the five time finger salute.

 

 

 

 

There you have it, the 2014 season. No need for the applause, gentlemen. Where's my prize?

Edited by OvDrone, 07 November 2013 - 19:22.

[Gorma]

I can't believe how some people can make sentences about the Ferrari engine, when we haven't heard/seen anything about it yet...

Exactly. Everyone else have shown their engines. We've even heard the Honda. Why haven't we heard anything from Ferrari?

RBR and Renault will be competitive next year for sure. Others have shown that they can drop the ball quite regularily.

[rasul]

RBR's ever-present problems with KERS might be fatal for them in 2014 even if the Renault engine is competitive.

[sopa]

I've always found it odd how people hate Redbull for winning instead of hating the rest of the field for being poor at their own jobs.

 

Yeah people's mentality is interesting. But the thing is it is always easier to take it a bit easily and blame those, who succeed, in "being lucky" instead of putting in an overwhelming and smart amount of work to match them. This mentality carries on into sports fandom.

 

However, looking into various teams' threads (especially Ferrari, McLaren) people are actually quite frustrated with their favourite team's efforts. I think these are more driver fans, who don't care about team effort so much and just dislike the owner of the best car.

[Zava]

RBR's ever-present problems with KERS might be fatal for them in 2014 even if the Renault engine is competitive.

the frequent failures of RBR's unique KERS have nothing to do at all with next years integrated-in-the-power-unit renault ERS.

it is like saying that renault's ERS will be reliable, because you hardly hear about a williams/caterham/lotus KERS failure*. 

 

*not sure if true, but that's not the point anyway;)

[EthanM]

RBR's ever-present problems with KERS might be fatal for them in 2014 even if the Renault engine is competitive.

 

not really, if Renault has problems with its ERS then all Renault powered cars will have problems.There's no longer a kers unit, built by each individual team, there's a central ERS unit that comes with the engine

 

Though Newey's borderline packaging might create problems, like it did at McLaren

[windy1603]

Also no dodgy engine maps and EBD should negate the Renault engine "advantage" from this year and clip the RBR wings on that design philosophy

[fabr68]

Oh Lord. This means the 2014 car will only be one second faster than the grid as opposed to the usual 2 seconds/lap advantage

And they blame Alonso on downplaying his car...

[ATM]

I can live with 1 second/lap. At least it won't seem like they'll crush the opposition that badly.  Eh, but there must be some engine failures on the way. That, at least, will make 2014 mildly interesting. 

[KingTiger]

I think Red Bull's biggest advantage has always been with their exhaust tricks, and since next year that will be completely gone, I think it will even out the playing field. They will have a fast car obviously but I don't think they'll be able to dominate by multiple seconds per lap like they've done these past few years. 

[mnmracer]

dominate by multiple seconds per lap like they've done these past few years. 

Ah, some more retro-active rewriting of history, just what we need.

Sadly, it is exactly this sort of 'I remember things how I tell myself I want them to be, not how they are' mindset that spawns a thread like this.

A thread that expresses joy in a sports team doing worse, rather than cheering on their own team to do better. A thread containing reactions of excuses why their own teams can't reach this level, rather than express the respect Red Bull and Vettel deserve for their achievements.

 

Instead of cheering for the best, it's become nothing more but a popularity contest that needs to be entertaining for people who don't want to see the best of the best, but merely the most entertaining. In my opinion disgusting what the mindset is of some people that call themselves fans . 

Edited by mnmracer, 08 November 2013 - 00:24.

[sennafan24]

I got excited at rumors I read that their 2013 car was under-developed. I am not going to fall for that again.

[HoldenRT]

Newey has the F1 world traumatised.

[sheogorath]

As much as I respect Newey as an engineer, he is starting to come across as a bit of a dickbag as of late with this and his comments about Ferrari and Lotus getting the tyres right out of pure luck.

[HoldenRT]

 

Instead of cheering for the best, it's become nothing more but a popularity contest that needs to be entertaining for people who don't want to see the best of the best, but merely the most entertaining. In my opinion disgusting what the mindset is of some people that call themselves fans . 

 

Everyone wants the best to win....... as long as it's their team.

[priestlysabbath]

They are going to be in the front of the field in 2014. It is just going to be a matter of whether other teams will be there too. And to figure this out, we need to wait till the first race of 2014.

[HammyHamiltonFan]

if engines are the most important factor next year then they may well struggle, when have Renault genuinely had the best engine on the grid? 2005? 2006? maybe not even then perhaps, it's hard to think of a time they have had a better engine than Mercedes or Ferrari since 1997.

[sv401]

As much as I respect Newey as an engineer, he is starting to come across as a bit of a dickbag as of late with this and his comments about Ferrari and Lotus getting the tyres right out of pure luck.

 

His opinion might be politically incorrect, but that does not mean that it cannot be at least partly true. If teams began the 2013 season with the 2012 cars unchanged from Brazil, the new tyres would likely still have favored the same cars. The 2012 Ferrari and Lotus were already easy on the tyres over long stints, and had good race pace, but also difficulty heating them for a single fast lap, just like their current cars. Reverting to 2012 tyres put Ferrari back to where they already were in the second half of 2012. It may also be worth noting that by the time teams actually had access to the 2013 tyres for testing (Friday practice in Brazil, and even then only a preliminary version of only one compound), it was too late to make any fundamental changes to the car design. So, luck probably did indeed play some part in getting the cars optimized for the 2013 tyres, not to mention the difficulty of getting it right depended on how well the existing 2012 designs would have suited the tyres in the first place.

 

By the way, the tyre change in Hungary is also a convenient excuse for Ferrari. Their performance decline in fact already started in Monaco, and there was a large difference between Barcelona (dominant win, and a podium even for Massa) and Silverstone (outpaced by both Mercedes and Red Bull, podium only by luck, would have been 5th place on merit), even though the tyres were still the same, the compounds were the same, and it is also a track with many fast corners that put a high load on the tyres.

[apoka]

I got excited at rumors I read that their 2013 car was under-developed. I am not going to fall for that again.

 

It was - it took them half a year to fix it! 

[Cesc]

Yes, very worring, it will take them 5 or 6 races to win 5 or 6 races more in a row, until then, a couple of wins and podiums.

[Jon83]

I've always found it odd how people hate Redbull for winning instead of hating the rest of the field for being poor at their own jobs.

 

There is a difference between not being as good as one team and being poor at their jobs.

[Kerch]

I've always found it odd how people hate Redbull for winning instead of hating the rest of the field for being poor at their own jobs.

 

Well if RB didn't exist, we'd all be thinking Lotus, Ferrari and Mercedes had all produced equally excellent cars. I guess you're taking the glass half empty approach.

[Clatter]

Well, paddock talk is that 2014 will be an engine championship. So that should help Mercedes and Ferrari get closer as Renault is supposedly the weakest engine for 2014.

Funny,because just a short while ago it was Ferrari who were rumored to have the weakest engine. No one has a clue yet as to how the engines will match up to each other.

[Clatter]

RBR's ever-present problems with KERS might be fatal for them in 2014 even if the Renault engine is competitive.

The issues they have had with KERS is in no way a pointer as to how the systems will perform next year. 

[Clatter]

Well if RB didn't exist, we'd all be thinking Lotus, Ferrari and Mercedes had all produced equally excellent cars. I guess you're taking the glass half empty approach.

That still doesn't explain the hatred.

[Kelateboy]

Newey has the F1 world traumatised.

 

Newey knew how it felt like in the 1999-2004 period, so now he wants to inflict the maximum pain to his competitors.

 

Really a sadistic guy I must say.... 

[alframsey]

Well, paddock talk is that 2014 will be an engine championship. So that should help Mercedes and Ferrari get closer as Renault is supposedly the weakest engine for 2014.

I thought it was believed that Ferrari would have the weakest engine? How people know this is beyond me, how do people make these assumptions?

 

Personally I think this is a load of bullshit, AN says the same thing every year! RBR will be up there next season and I wouldn't be surprised at all if RBR dominate again!

[FirstWatt]

Oh, RB and/or Seb fans, don't be concerned, even if RB will start behind, after the summer break they will have outdeveloped all and win the championships.

 

Those who understand German can read here:

http://www.auto-moto...ag-7889532.html

 

Essentially, there are three interesting statements.

 

a) Many teams cannot understand how much RB gains in competitiveness after the Summer break.

b) RB was the main oppontent to the announced more severe controls of FIA to enforce the summer break, and also at the suppliers. Seems they were successful, as FIA made a step back wrt the suppliers.

c) RB does their "Filming Days" almost always in Rockingham, which is a rather strange place to film, accordig to AMuS. Force India thinks the same and applied to send an observer to the filming days of 05./06. November. RB reportedly was baffled and they needed one day to give an answer (read: invitation) to FI, (as they are obliged to do by the rules)..

 

So do not fear, they will be there even if they invested too much resources in the 2013 car until now.....

Edited by FirstWatt, 08 November 2013 - 14:47.

[EricSivry]

Newey knew how it felt like in the 1999-2004 period, so now he wants to inflict the maximum pain to his competitors.

 

Really a sadistic guy I must say.... 

 

well said, those years must have hurt newey. The last 4 years must have been all the sweeter for it.

[skc]

There is a difference between not being as good as one team and being poor at their jobs.

 

I was deliberate in my choice of words because the level of vitriol spewed at Redbull implies that they are as a team an entire universe better than their competitors.

 

People wouldn't get this upset if RB were simply a bit better than their rivals. Ergo, the others are poor at their jobs.

Edited by skc, 08 November 2013 - 17:19.

[Crossmax]

SD: I heare you had to comprrrromize next years' carrr, yeah?

CH: Yeah, I'm afraid next year is gonna be really close with you guys... 

[MrPodium]

I can remember Horner whinging in 2009 / 2010 that it wasn't fair that Renault engines (and their lack of power) were compromising RedBull. Subsequently, they were allowed to upgrade their engines for "reliability issues".

 

Red Bull Racing team principal Christian Horner said: "I think the problem is if you don't allow some development, then you freeze in an advantage for one team or a disadvantage for another.

"So there has to be a balancing of that, otherwise we will end up with Mercedes-powered cars winning all the races - which I think is not good for F1. And other manufacturers may choose to leave F1 off of the back of that.

"The engine isn't supposed to be a key performance differentiator and therefore hopefully the ruling body will balance out somewhat the differences there at the moment."

 

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/82246

 

Hornley conveniently forgot Newey's genious in the aero department - fair enough, anything for a competitive advantage. Just as Vettel moaned about the "littel magic psuh to pass button" (KERS) in 2009, all forgotten.

 

So at the end of the day, even if RedBull are compromised in one department (engines), I'm sure they will whinge enough until they gain some form of advantage over the rest of the field.

 

I don't belive RedBull will be compromised for one second. Horner and Ecclestone will ensure that.

[mlsnoopy]

I've always found it odd how people hate Redbull for winning instead of hating the rest of the field for being poor at their own jobs.

 

But can other teams build the same car or even a  better car than RedBull. Don't forget that a huge part of RedBull dominance is the EBD concept and these is where the renault engines offers an advantage over mercedes and ferrari engines. So as engine development is frozen is it right that RedBull can exploit something that other teams can't.

[mlsnoopy]

I can remember Horner whinging in 2009 / 2010 that it wasn't fair that Renault engines (and their lack of power) were compromising RedBull. Subsequently, they were allowed to upgrade their engines for "reliability issues".

 

Red Bull Racing team principal Christian Horner said: "I think the problem is if you don't allow some development, then you freeze in an advantage for one team or a disadvantage for another.

"So there has to be a balancing of that, otherwise we will end up with Mercedes-powered cars winning all the races - which I think is not good for F1. And other manufacturers may choose to leave F1 off of the back of that.

"The engine isn't supposed to be a key performance differentiator and therefore hopefully the ruling body will balance out somewhat the differences there at the moment."

 

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/82246

 

Hornley conveniently forgot Newey's genious in the aero department - fair enough, anything for a competitive advantage. Just as Vettel moaned about the "littel magic psuh to pass button" (KERS) in 2009, all forgotten.

 

So at the end of the day, even if RedBull are compromised in one department (engines), I'm sure they will whinge enough until they gain some form of advantage over the rest of the field.

 

I don't belive RedBull will be compromised for one second. Horner and Ecclestone will ensure that.

 

You are right. Wonder if anything else was also upgraded. Didn't RedBull use the EBD concept from the first race in 2010.

[MrPodium]

I was deliberate in my choice of words because the level of vitriol spewed at Redbull implies that they are as a team an entire universe better than their competitors.

 

People wouldn't get this upset if RB were simply a bit better than their rivals. Ergo, the others are poor at their jobs.

 

I heard all this nine years ago (and more) with Ferrari, but's let call some of the finest engineers in the world "poor at their jobs". A very simplistic argument, fundamentally flawed on so many levels.