82 replies to this topic

[MrPodium]

You are right. Wonder if anything else was also upgraded. Didn't RedBull use the EBD concept from the first race in 2010.

I believe so. Newey tried very hard to make the concept viable with the ill fated MP4-18 (I was present at the Silvestone testing when it made it's debut, with Raikkonen behind the wheel). It didn't work back then, and McLaren reverted to the MP4-17, it's final iteration being the MP4-17d.

[skc]

I heard all this nine years ago (and more) with Ferrari, but's let call some of the finest engineers in the world "poor at their jobs". A very simplistic argument, fundamentally flawed on so many levels.

 

Fair enough, then on a scale of 10 where is Redbull and where is their closest competitor in your opinion?

[Gorma]

I believe so. Newey tried very hard to make the concept viable with the ill fated MP4-18 (I was present at the Silvestone testing when it made it's debut, with Raikkonen behind the wheel). It didn't work back then, and McLaren reverted to the MP4-17, it's final iteration being the MP4-17d.

MP4-17D came before the MP4-18A and Alexander Wurz was the first drive it in Paul Ricard.

[ThomFi]

Oh, RB and/or Seb fans, don't be concerned, even if RB will start behind, after the summer break they will have outdeveloped all and win the championships.

 

Those who understand German can read here:

http://www.auto-moto...ag-7889532.html

 

Essentially, there are three interesting statements.

 

a) Many teams cannot understand how much RB gains in competitiveness after the Summer break.

b) RB was the main oppontent to the announced more severe controls of FIA to enforce the summer break, and also at the suppliers. Seems they were successful, as FIA made a step back wrt the suppliers.

c) RB does their "Filming Days" almost always in Rockingham, which is a rather strange place to film, accordig to AMuS. Force India thinks the same and applied to send an observer to the filming days of 05./06. November. RB reportedly was baffled and they needed one day to give an answer (read: invitation) to FI, (as they are obliged to do by the rules)..

 

So do not fear, they will be there even if they invested too much resources in the 2013 car until now.....

 

Which team was the strongest after last year's summer break? McLaren. Pole position and win in Spa, pole position and win in Monza and Pole position in Singapore. And without Hamilton's retirement because of a gearbox problem, McLaren very likely would have won the race in Singapore too.

In 2011, it was also McLaren, which made the biggest step after the summer break.

[EricSivry]

Which team was the strongest after last year's summer break? McLaren. Pole position and win in Spa, pole position and win in Monza and Pole position in Singapore. And without Hamilton's retirement because of a gearbox problem, McLaren very likely would have won the race in Singapore too.

In 2011, it was also McLaren, which made the biggest step after the summer break.

 

Red Bull made the biggest step after the summer break in 2011. Look at the results from Spa, Singapore and Monza and compare that to Hungary, Nurburgring and Silverstone.

[EricSivry]

I think Red Bull's biggest advantage has always been with their exhaust tricks, and since next year that will be completely gone, I think it will even out the playing field. They will have a fast car obviously but I don't think they'll be able to dominate by multiple seconds per lap like they've done these past few years. 

 

Intersting fact, Newey has never won a championship without a blown diffuser (in some form).

[ThomFi]

Red Bull made the biggest step after the summer break in 2011. Look at the results from Spa, Singapore and Monza and compare that to Hungary, Nurburgring and Silverstone.

 

Statistics not always present the real picture. There were even people who think, that McLaren was the best car in the second half of the season. If I remember correctly, there was an interview with Scarbs on Peter  Windsor's "The flying lap" were Scarbs shared his view, that McLaren was the best car in the second half.

I think,  without an underperforming Hamilton that year, the championship would have been closer. But everyone is entitled to his opinion of course.

[ThomFi]

Intersting fact, Newey has never won a championship without a blown diffuser (in some form).

 

What about his time at Williams.

[Zava]

Statistics not always present the real picture. There were even people who think, that McLaren was the best car in the second half of the season. If I remember correctly, there was an interview with Scarbs on Peter  Windsor's "The flying lap" were Scarbs shared his view, that McLaren was the best car in the second half.

I think,  without an underperforming Hamilton that year, the championship would have been closer. But everyone is entitled to his opinion of course.

well, if one does the maths of "hypothetical best red bull/mclaren driver", counting the sum of the better rbr/mclaren finishes in the year, he/she will be rather surprised. 

I know, I did it once. 

 

edit: in case it wasn't clear, I mean something like this:

AUS: Vettel 1st, Hamilton 2nd -> RB driver: 25 pts, mclaren driver: 18 pts.

MAL: Vettel 1st, Button 2nd -> RB driver 50, mclaren driver 36

CHN: Hamilton 1st, Vettel 2nd -> RB driver 68, mclaren driver 61

etc...

Edited by Zava, 08 November 2013 - 23:48.

[EricSivry]

What about his time at Williams.

 

All his Williams cars had blown diffusers. Everyone was blowing the diffuser back then. Ferrari were the first to move away from this in 98 (with periscope exhausts pioneered by Toet).

[DanardiF1]

What about his time at Williams.

 

Exhausts exited underneath the car until Ferrari pioneered the 'up-and-over' exhausts in 1998.

[DanardiF1]

All his Williams cars had blown diffusers. Everyone was blowing the diffuser back then. Ferrari were the first to move away from this in 98 (with periscope exhausts pioneered by Toet).

 

Beat me to it by just a few seconds!

[EricSivry]

Statistics not always present the real picture. There were even people who think, that McLaren was the best car in the second half of the season. If I remember correctly, there was an interview with Scarbs on Peter  Windsor's "The flying lap" were Scarbs shared his view, that McLaren was the best car in the second half.

I think,  without an underperforming Hamilton that year, the championship would have been closer. But everyone is entitled to his opinion of course.

 

Not talking about the whole season. The Red Bull update at Spa sent them to the front again. Before that, Mclaren had got very close to them in Germany and Hungary and were even faster in the latter. Ferrari had also closed the gap.

[DanardiF1]

You are right. Wonder if anything else was also upgraded. Didn't RedBull use the EBD concept from the first race in 2010.

 

They had low exhaust exits on the 2009 car as well...

 

[ThomFi]

All his Williams cars had blown diffusers. Everyone was blowing the diffuser back then. Ferrari were the first to move away from this in 98 (with periscope exhausts pioneered by Toet).

 

Ok, I stand corrected. I knew they had the exhausts underneath the car in the past, but I thought at the time of the Schumacher/Hill battles, after Senna's death and the introduction of the wooden panel, that would have had changed. 

[EricSivry]

Ok, I stand corrected. I knew they had the exhausts underneath the car in the past, but I thought at the time of the Schumacher/Hill battles, after Senna's death and the introduction of the wooden panel, that would have had changed. 

 

Yeh for some reason they were not such a big talking point back then.

 

Newey loves the blown diffuser.While everyone had moved to periscope exhausts in the early 00s, he was the last designer to move to this exhaust arangement, and apparantly only at the insistence of Mercedes engine designer, Mario Ilien. As others already mentioned in this thread, he tried to use it for the 2003 Mclaren car that never raced. He was also of course the first designer to bring back the concept in 2010. When direct blowing of the diffuser was banned in 2012, we saw at the start of the year that Red Bull had lost their dominance from the previous year (at least temporarirly).

 

The single exhaust exit may be the one thing that brings Red Bull back to the competition next year.

Edited by EricSivry, 09 November 2013 - 00:49.

[ThomFi]

Not talking about the whole season. The Red Bull update at Spa sent them to the front again. Before that, Mclaren had got very close to them in Germany and Hungary and were even faster in the latter. Ferrari had also closed the gap.

 

But in Spa and Monza, Red Bull also had to risk a lot in terms of set up. In Spa they were running extreme camber angles beyond the recommended camber limits set by Pirelli. Other teams experienced  blistering too,  but not to the extent of Red Bull.
And in Monza they gambled with a risky "high down force" setup. With a top speed of 327.7 kph, Vettel was dead last of all 24 cars through the speed trap. At the end it worked out, but without overtaking  Alonso with an outside pass in the Curva Grande, it could have went the other way.

[Kelateboy]

ARTICLE 5.8.2: EXHAUST POSITIONING

 

The new regulations for the 1.6-litre turbocharged V6 engine era mandate a single tailpipe of fixed dimensions, which must exit 170-185mm behind the rear axle line and 350-500mm above the floor.

 

With the circular end of the final 150mm of tailpipe having to point upwards at an angle of five degrees, any aero effect from the exhaust will be hugely restricted.

 

Bodywork is also banned in the area behind the tailpipe's axis, preventing vanes or winglets from diverting the plume towards the rear wing or diffuser.

 

One dispensation is that the exhaust can be offset from the car's centre-line by 100mm, which could allow the retention of the monkey seat winglet.

 

How much DF could be obtained by blowing the monkey seat?

 

So we will have a transformation from EBD to EBMS?

[garagetinkerer]

 

 

 

How much DF could be obtained by blowing the monkey seat?

 

So we will have a transformation from EBD to EBMS?

 

I'd like to hear commentators say that on air Exhaust blown MONKEY seat with a straight face and then go on to explain it.

[F1ultimate]

I think RBR worked a lot on the crucial issue for 2014 -> traction

Newey is just ... you know ... having fun

 

Yupp

Anyone that doesn't believe some of the advantages that Red Bull have during the second half of this season aren't transferable to next year, is fool. You only have to hear what Braw, Fry, Newey and Hamilton have recently said about aero or Red Bull's performance.

Edited by F1ultimate, 09 November 2013 - 09:10.

[mlsnoopy]

well, if one does the maths of "hypothetical best red bull/mclaren driver", counting the sum of the better rbr/mclaren finishes in the year, he/she will be rather surprised. 

I know, I did it once. 

 

edit: in case it wasn't clear, I mean something like this:

AUS: Vettel 1st, Hamilton 2nd -> RB driver: 25 pts, mclaren driver: 18 pts.

MAL: Vettel 1st, Button 2nd -> RB driver 50, mclaren driver 36

CHN: Hamilton 1st, Vettel 2nd -> RB driver 68, mclaren driver 61

etc...

 

That is true. Without McLaren mistakes, Hamilton would push Vettel all the way in 2011. 

[Zava]

That is true. Without McLaren mistakes, Hamilton would push Vettel all the way in 2011. 

yes. it was mclaren mistakes, and nothing else!

[EricSivry]

 

 

 

How much DF could be obtained by blowing the monkey seat?

 

So we will have a transformation from EBD to EBMS?

 

 

Here's what scarbs says about it:

 

scarbsf1 on

July 9, 2013 at 10:01 am

said:

There’s still scope to use the exhaust flow for some aero benefit either curving the flow down the middle trailing edge of the diffuser, or curving it up under the rear wing with a winglet over it. This will depend on the teams and FIA’s technical Delegates interpretation and clarifications on the new regs

 

scarbsf1 on

July 9, 2013 at 4:11 pmsaid:

You can’t have the Y75 winglet (I hate the M.S. term) behind the exhaust and blow over the top of it. There’s space to have it underneath the exhaust, but it will be shrouded by the exhaust itself so not very efficient.

But, you can have a winglet over the exhaust and have the exhaust play tangentially on to its underside, flicking the airflow up in the same steep upwash as the diffuser\RW flow.

I’ve also drawn up an extreme coanda set up to blow the diffusers central trailing edge, but that’s a pretty steep curve and I’m not sure it would be very efficient.

 

http://scarbsf1.com/...les-first-look/

[seahawk]

It is the tools. If the flow simulation and wind tunnel data and track performance match better than for the other teams, the advantage will grow over the season. RBR rarely bring up-dates that do not work. And even if they do they seem to quickly find the correct way to improve the car. The otther teams (Lotus aside) seem to be more or less lost in such situations. Merc seemd better this year, but they seem to have a basic design problem in the car. Macca and Ferrari seem very lost.

 

Don´t you notice that suddenly the RBR is fast on the straights. Their aero efficiency is going up the aerodynamic drag is going down. If they can improve this with the current car, I expect their new one will be even better. This fits nicely to the rumours about the Renault engine having a disadvantage in power but an advantage in efficiency. I believe they are preparing for problems in qualifying but a very high and consistent race pace, with high top speed for easy overtakes and an efficient engine for constantly high power use.

[F1ultimate]

RBR rarely bring up-dates that do not work. And even if they do they seem to quickly find the correct way to improve the car. 

 

They seem to be excellent at developing good all rounders. Last year Mclaren had the fastest car, Ferrari the most reliable one but Red Bull had the one that delivered both satisfactory throughout the season. I don't know whether its because they have a teriffic wind tunnel or CFD modelling, but Mclaren are struggling with correlation and Ferrari only recently got their new wind tunnel up and running.

[Maustinsj]

I'd like to hear commentators say that on air Exhaust blown MONKEY seat with a straight face and then go on to explain it.

Maybe next year's theme tune could be a song by the Blow Monkeys?

[BJHF1]

What I want to see for next year is an exhaust blown F-duct monkey seat That thing might be so effective it could launch banana peels at the other cars lol

Edited by BJHF1, 09 November 2013 - 22:41.

[Kelateboy]

Don´t you notice that suddenly the RBR is fast on the straights. Their aero efficiency is going up the aerodynamic drag is going down. If they can improve this with the current car, I expect their new one will be even better. This fits nicely to the rumours about the Renault engine having a disadvantage in power but an advantage in efficiency. I believe they are preparing for problems in qualifying but a very high and consistent race pace, with high top speed for easy overtakes and an efficient engine for constantly high power use.

 

What Renault RS27 engines lack in power (reputed to be down 2.5% to Ferrari and Mercedes), they make it all up with fuel efficiency. The no-refueling ban since 2010 played into Renault Sports hand where their engines are estimated to start about 4kg lighter against Ferrari/Mercedes powered cars for the race distance. Depending on which viewpoint you subscribe to, that lighter fuel load means Renault-powered cars are faster by 0.1-0.3s/lap at the start of the race. 

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Backing up to earlier posts here for a second;

 

Newey has been using blown diffusers for the best part of 25 years on his WDC and WCC winning cars (Williams, Mclaren and Red Bull) and it is only really recently they've worked out what the 'key' to his secrets have been?

 

I bet he's been having a laugh all these years 

[Niceone]

Well, paddock talk is that 2014 will be an engine championship. So that should help Mercedes and Ferrari get closer as Renault is supposedly the weakest engine for 2014.

There's 100kg fuel limit for next year. Fuel efficiency of engine is the key factor..even more than actual horse powers.

[F1ultimate]

There's 100kg fuel limit for next year. Fuel efficiency of engine is the key factor..even more than actual horse powers.

 

Red Bull's biggest trump for next year though is traction. No one has cracked their secret this year which means that no one can protest against it. Red Bull will therefore carry it over to next season. Today's pirelli tires in combination with high torque of next year's turbo charged engines, can spell disaster for teams like Merc. Meanwhile Red Bull have mastered the ability to use high downforce configurations without tyre deg problems. 

 

This means that next year, they'll be able to successfully apply more of the torque without suffering from extra pit stops. Merc's power advantage won't be advantageous in any other area than on super long straights unless they can extract 100% of it without compromising in other areas.

[sv401]

Red Bull's biggest trump for next year though is traction.

 

The problem is that it might come from exhaust blowing, which will be banned entirely next season with a mandatory placement of the exhausts that makes any blowing tricks physically impossible. Indeed, the fact that they use lower downforce rear wings recently than the competition, and still get more rear downforce suggests a very efficient diffuser, and that is quite likely because it is sealed by exhaust blowing, just like on the RB7.

[ThomFi]

Backing up to earlier posts here for a second;

 

Newey has been using blown diffusers for the best part of 25 years on his WDC and WCC winning cars (Williams, Mclaren and Red Bull) and it is only really recently they've worked out what the 'key' to his secrets have been?

 

I bet he's been having a laugh all these years 

 

I don't think so. It's not really a secret, how this stuff works.

 

http://www.formula1-...user_blown.html