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Massa on Schumacher and Alonso...


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#1 George Costanza

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 00:17

Felipe Massa has named Fernando Alonso as his strongest Formula 1 team-mate, thus putting the Spaniard above seven-time World Champion Michael Schumacher.

Massa, who will be replaced by Kimi Räikkönen next season, raced alongside Nick Heidfeld, Giancarlo Fisichella and Jacques Villeneuve at Sauber, before joining Ferrari to partner Schumacher, the aforementioned Finn and most recently Alonso.

When asked to pick out the best of the group, the Brazilian was clear in his mind.

"Fernando," Massa, who made his debut in 2002, said during an interview published on the official Ferrari website. "Schumacher was as quick, but in terms of intelligence, Alonso is better because he manages to put everything together perfectly."

Having spent 11 seasons in the sport, Massa is now working hard to remain on the grid. But although another term in the top echelon is his preference, he admits a move to Germany's DTM series or his native Stock Car Brasil is of interest for the future.

"I love racing, it's part of my life and makes me happy," Massa commented. "Maybe after Formula 1 I'll try my hand at some other category – DTM or Brazilian Stock Cars

 

I do agree that Fernando's racing IQ is one of the best, but to say he is better than Schumacher at his vintage years is another thing. And Michael was very, very good in 2006 when they raced, but he was not the same driver as he was in his earlier years. One could say the same about Alonso, he is a much better driver now than in 2006, or it shows that way.

 

Felipe never raced aganist that 1990s Michael Schumacher who was arugbably the finest driver of that time. But I do see some simlair things between Fernando and Michael given their teammates, they both rather beat them by a large margin. I do believe Alonso's 2012 season was like Michael's 1998 season where he was absolutely the finest driving year of his career given the cars he had given in a single season alone.                             

 

My question to all: If Fernando was at Ferrari in the mid 1990s, like Schumacher was, and had the same exact team with Ross Brawn-Rory Byrne and Jean Todt.... Would Fernando be as successful as Michael Schumacher was?


Edited by George Costanza, 10 November 2013 - 00:23.


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#2 dgsg

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 00:33

No.



#3 EricSivry

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 00:41

Alonso would have done great in F1 in the 90s when the cars were harder to drive. Same goes for Hamilton.

 

At the other end of the spectrum, Vettel would struggle with 90s cars.

 

A comparison of Schumacher at his peak (i.e. late 90s Schumacher) vs Alonso at his peak (i.e. last few years) - my opinion is that Schumacher was a bit faster in terms of outright pace, both hugely consistent, while Alonso slightly less error prone.

 

Last question doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Schumacher in the 90s at Ferrari was not hugely successful (he won races and took championship fights to the wire, but in the end he had no championships, just like Alonso in the last few years).



#4 Kvyat

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 01:16

Felipe is just comparing the 2006 MSC he faced with the 2010-2013 Alonso he also faced.

 

In 2006 MSC didn't even needed to do smart races because he was only fighting Reno/Michelin most part of it, not like Alonso now who have tones of team's cars to fight with



#5 black magic

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 02:02

fernando also can become disinterested such as seems somewhat as this season comes to an end. michael never waivered.

 

both could get the absolute max out of a car.

 

fernando less the team man but able to use his language advantage.

 

fernando has not had the same moents of unsavoury conduct though.

 

but look at the what 2005/ 2006 san marino gp where they reversed roles and kept arguably the quicker car atbay for an entire gp despite some very near passes.

 

both special talents.



#6 George Costanza

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 02:12

Alonso would have done great in F1 in the 90s when the cars were harder to drive. Same goes for Hamilton.

 

At the other end of the spectrum, Vettel would struggle with 90s cars.

 

A comparison of Schumacher at his peak (i.e. late 90s Schumacher) vs Alonso at his peak (i.e. last few years) - my opinion is that Schumacher was a bit faster in terms of outright pace, both hugely consistent, while Alonso slightly less error prone.

 

Last question doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Schumacher in the 90s at Ferrari was not hugely successful (he won races and took championship fights to the wire, but in the end he had no championships, just like Alonso in the last few years).

 

What I mean is: Would Fernando be as good or as dominant as Michael was if Ferrari was at its peak? I think he could do that. We saw in the first half of 2006 how dominant Fernando can be. My point was could he mantain it like Schumacher had done or as Vettel does now (this is not about the car, per se).

 

But I disagree and agree about your comparsion of Schumacher and Alonso. I agree that Schu is quicker over one lap and pace alone... I would agree that Fernando doesn't make that many errors nor did Michael but I would add that Michael is a little bit level headed as season wore on. Maybe he had a little bit more mental capacity than Alonso does?


Edited by George Costanza, 10 November 2013 - 02:16.


#7 exmayol

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 02:25

Of course FM would claim FA to be stronger after several bland years alongside. I'd imagine a whole different assessment and even relation between the two had he paired MSC in late 90s.



#8 ebc

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 02:36

Alonso would have done great in F1 in the 90s when the cars were harder to drive. Same goes for Hamilton.

 

At the other end of the spectrum, Vettel would struggle with 90s cars.

 

A comparison of Schumacher at his peak (i.e. late 90s Schumacher) vs Alonso at his peak (i.e. last few years) - my opinion is that Schumacher was a bit faster in terms of outright pace, both hugely consistent, while Alonso slightly less error prone.

 

Last question doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Schumacher in the 90s at Ferrari was not hugely successful (he won races and took championship fights to the wire, but in the end he had no championships, just like Alonso in the last few years).

 Why do you say that, I don't think he would struggle in any era.  He is probably the smartest driver in F1 right now and has incredible talent, I think he is the only one who could have done what Michael did.

 

Schumacher was past his prime in 06 by maybe 4 or 5 years, Alonso is in his prime now so there is a big difference.  You could argue 2010-12 Alonso is better than 06 Schumacher but not 94 -2002 Michael, during those 9 seasons he was the greatest driver of all time in my opinion, he started to decline abit around 2003.



#9 BJHF1

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 02:37

Of course FM would claim FA to be stronger after several bland years alongside. I'd imagine a whole different assessment and even relation between the two had he paired MSC in late 90s.

 

+1 The fact that he's desperately trying to land a seat for next year might have something to do with opinion he states lol.



#10 f1RacingForever

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 03:00

Not surprising, although Schumacher was in the closing years of his career when he and Massa were teammates so we can speculate how much weaker Schumacher was then, as opposed to when he was in his prime which most consider to be the late 90's and early 2000's. Not by much i reckon.



#11 f1RacingForever

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 03:09

Of course FM would claim FA to be stronger after several bland years alongside. I'd imagine a whole different assessment and even relation between the two had he paired MSC in late 90s.

Are you calling Massa a lier?



#12 DevilsCry

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 05:23

Massa has terribly overstayed at Ferrari, hurt Ferrari a lot in WCC battle and snatched away title from Alonso by failing to take points away from Vettel and Webber in last four years. Is this how Massa is trying to make Alonso feel better?


Edited by DevilsCry, 10 November 2013 - 05:41.


#13 Kingshark

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 05:26

I would say that in 2006, Alonso was probably a better driver than Schumacher.

                              

Ferrari and Renault had very evenly matched cars in 2006. Out of the 18 races, Renault had a faster car in 8 races (Malaysia, Australia, San Marino, Spain, Great Britain, Canada, Hungary, and China), they were equal in Bahrain and Monaco, and Ferrari had the faster car in the other 8 races (Europe, USA, France, Germany, Turkey, Monza, Japan, and Brazil).

 

Both Alonso and Schumacher lost a fair share of points in 2006 due bad luck out of their control. If anything, Alonso lost more points than Schumi due bad luck.

 

Schumacher lost 10 points in Suzuka (engine), 5 points in Brazil (puncture), and 2 points in Malaysia (gearbox penalty). In total, Michael lost 17 points due misfortunes.

 

Alonso lost 10 points in Hungary (wheel nut), 2 points in China (slow pit stop), 2 points in Malaysia (qualifying problem), and 6 points in Monza (engine). That is a total of 20 points lost due misfortunes.

 

So why did Alonso still win the WDC by 13 points, despite being the unluckier of the two drivers? Because of Schumacher’s mistakes.

 

Crashing in the wall in Australia, refusing to pit and cutting the chicane in Hungary, parking his car deliberately in Monaco, and making a crucial driving error during his 2nd stint in Turkey cost Michael a total of 17 points.

 

Both Schumacher and Alonso were very fast in 2006, but Alonso’s relentless consistency won him the WDC that year.

 

And to think that Alonso today is perhaps an even better driver than he was in ’06, scary thought.


Edited by Kingshark, 10 November 2013 - 05:30.


#14 George Costanza

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 05:52

In 2006, Schumacher made mistakes that would have been unthinkable in 1995-2002 form.

 

But there is no doubt that Fernando is a better driver today than he ever was at Renault years (that includes 2008-2009, IMO).


Edited by George Costanza, 10 November 2013 - 05:53.


#15 shonguiz

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 05:58

Mass should seriously learn to STFU. His declarations this year are mostly embrassing.



#16 velgajski1

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 06:20

I don't see anything wrong with what Massa said.

 

Realistically speaking, drivers today are probably more competitive (better physical fitness / race preparation) than drivers from 10+ years ago. In 2006. Schumacher was already in decline while Massa probably raced Alonso at his peak. 



#17 apoka

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 08:26

I am unsure what to make of the statements. There is a motivation for him to elevate Alonso a bit in order to increase his chances for a seat next year. I don't think he is outright liying, but it's more a subconscious thing. Moreover, the overall level of driving has possibly further improved over the past decade. Alonso is a great driver - I do not see him on par with MS personally, but Massa's opinion certainly has some value (even if it is 2006 MS vs. 2012 Alonso, he is giving Alonso quite some credit).

 



#18 Group B

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 08:56

No.

 

This.

 

We have no idea about Massa's personal issues or agendas, except right now we know he needs to look fast to find a seat, so why base the universe on a few lines he's blithered out.



#19 krobinson

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 09:21

 

I would say that in 2006, Alonso was probably a better driver than Schumacher.

                              

 

I think he very clearly was the better driver in 2006. You listed races where one car was better than the other, there are some very doubtful there, where I think Ferrari was probably faster than the Renault, but Alonso's brilliance gave them the race wins.

 

This.

 

We have no idea about Massa's personal issues or agendas, except right now we know he needs to look fast to find a seat, so why base the universe on a few lines he's blithered out.

Yes. That is exactly how it works. Massa thinks he can con the teambosses into believing Alonso is such a great driver so that he would look better and get a seat :rolleyes: .

 

I see no reason to doubt what Massa says here. The reality is that in 2006 he was often able to match Schumacher and sometimes was faster than him and that was when he was still learning things. He is a better driver now and is often completely destroyed by Alonso.



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#20 LiJu914

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 10:58

I see no reason to doubt what Massa says here. The reality is that in 2006 he was often able to match Schumacher and sometimes was faster than him and that was when he was still learning things. He is a better driver now and is often completely destroyed by Alonso.

 

 

I doubt that was the "reality". He was faster in Malaysia and Turkey and basically equal in Germany - and that´s it.

 

I also doubt that Massa is a better driver now than he was back then. I don´t believe in that "post crash-decline"-stuff, but it seems Massa skills/style was more suited to the technical regulations a few years back than nowadays. I don´t think many people would seriously claim, that e.g. Massa performed on the same level as Raikkönen in the last two years - yet he did that in 2007-2008 (and it´s not like Raikkonen was slow under these regs as we could see the years before that at McLaren...).


Edited by LiJu914, 10 November 2013 - 11:00.


#21 krea

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:03

When will people learn you can't compare drivers from different times and cars?



#22 Tsarwash

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:16

Instantly this becomes a thread about whether Michael or Alonso were better in their prime. Which of course is a silly argument because it's all opinion with no actual way of backing the opinions up. 

 

Of course Massa is going to say what he said, as he is looking for a seat next year and want to make himself look as attractive as possible. Saying that Alonso is the best ever, is one way of doing it. 

 

If anybody is going to say that driver A would struggle in era B and Driver C would be a champ in era D, please at least try to back up the opinions with some kind of reasoning. Remember, we don't just accept every opinion voiced on this board. If you want to you opinion to be accepted, you need to justify it with decent argument. My cat thinks that Lewis would have been champ in 1976, but he can't tell me why, at all. You want to have more debating skills than my cat, don't you ?



#23 SenorSjon

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:28

I don't see anything wrong with what Massa said.

 

Realistically speaking, drivers today are probably more competitive (better physical fitness / race preparation) than drivers from 10+ years ago. In 2006. Schumacher was already in decline while Massa probably raced Alonso at his peak. 

10+ years ago, they were going much faster than the cruising 2011+ era. Schumacher said this himself that it was tougher with relentless testing and sprintlike races. He got back in 2010 because F1 was easier and less time consuming.



#24 LiJu914

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:30

Of course Massa is going to say what he said, as he is looking for a seat next year and want to make himself look as attractive as possible. Saying that Alonso is the best ever, is one way of doing it. 

 

 

He´s not saying that and i´m also not sure that he has a underlying agenda in his statements. For me they come along as a comprehensible evaluation of these specific wdc-campaigns.

All he´s doing is comparing MSC´s 2006 year with Alonso´s 2010-2013. And i think he has a fair point, when he rates Schumacher´s 2006-campaign (not in terms of pure speed, but the overall performance) lower than most/all of Alonso´s recent seasons.


Edited by LiJu914, 10 November 2013 - 11:35.


#25 EricSivry

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:37

What I mean is: Would Fernando be as good or as dominant as Michael was if Ferrari was at its peak? I think he could do that. We saw in the first half of 2006 how dominant Fernando can be. My point was could he mantain it like Schumacher had done or as Vettel does now (this is not about the car, per se).

 

But I disagree and agree about your comparsion of Schumacher and Alonso. I agree that Schu is quicker over one lap and pace alone... I would agree that Fernando doesn't make that many errors nor did Michael but I would add that Michael is a little bit level headed as season wore on. Maybe he had a little bit more mental capacity than Alonso does?

 

Yeh i think Fernando could be as dominant as Michael, if given the correct equipment. As you say, we saw how dominant Alonso can be in early 2005 and 2006. Even in China and Barcelona this year, he had those races won by the halfway point.

 

Irvine pointed out that Schumacher was easily the quickest driver but he made too many mistakes. Have to take what he says with a pinch of salt and also bear in mind that mistakes back then were more costly (e.g. the mistakes Schumacher made in Austria 98 would have resulted in him running wide onto the run-off area these days).

 

As for Schumacher being more level headed as the season wore on - Schumacher has quite a poor record in last race title show downs. I remember how Brundle described Schumacher as looking extremely nervous and tense before Suzuka 2000. Of course Alonso also tailed off towards the end of last season, though in other seasons like 2010 he was actually stronger towards the end of the season. Hard to say really. :yawnface:



#26 EricSivry

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:40

 Why do you say that, I don't think he would struggle in any era.  He is probably the smartest driver in F1 right now and has incredible talent, I think he is the only one who could have done what Michael did.

 

I guess we will agree to disagree. Vettel is great in these perfectly handling Red Bulls, but i don't think he would be able to get as much out of a poor handling car as the likes of Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton.

 

Look at the early races of 2012 - the car wasn't handling to Vettel's liking and he was no longer dominating.



#27 Galko877

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:49

Interestingly Pat Symonds said just the opposite. He said last year that in his opinion Schumacher was a better driver than Alonso. Actually Smonds said Schumacher was the best driver he's ever worked with - and he also worked with Senna. I guess it could be down to perspectives: Massa is a teammate, Symonds is an engineer, so they have different perspectives and different aspects of a driver. Also, like others said, Massa raced against Schumacher in his last years, while he raced against an Alonso at his peak. Plus Massa might arguably be weaker after his accident (which he may not want to admit at the moment, looking for a new drive).


Edited by Galko877, 10 November 2013 - 11:50.


#28 prty

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:55

Interestingly Pat Symonds said just the opposite.

 

Well he likes to change tune apparently then.

 

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/4216182.stm

 

Maybe the bad relation that he had with Alonso when he left has something to do about it?



#29 LiJu914

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 12:00

I guess we will agree to disagree. Vettel is great in these perfectly handling Red Bulls, but i don't think he would be able to get as much out of a poor handling car as the likes of Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton.

 

Look at the early races of 2012 - the car wasn't handling to Vettel's liking and he was no longer dominating.

 

1st - I would agree in general, that Vettel might have a narrower operating window regarding top performances under various car characteristics (but that´s just a pure gut feeling, so anyone is free to dismiss my opinion...).

 

2nd I don´t think that your example is much of a "stand alone-proof". It was just a shorter period, in which his teammate was closer (or sometimes even better than him) than usual.

But that has also happened to Alonso or Hamilton before, like in Alonso´s case 2004, 2007 (even though it was Hamilton, he was still a rookie - and the fact that he was still instantly able to match ALO indicates for me, that ALO was also a little bit struggling on his own) late 2012 - or in Hamilton´s case the latter part of 2011 etc.


Edited by LiJu914, 10 November 2013 - 12:02.


#30 Clatter

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 12:11

I guess we will agree to disagree. Vettel is great in these perfectly handling Red Bulls, but i don't think he would be able to get as much out of a poor handling car as the likes of Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton.

 

Look at the early races of 2012 - the car wasn't handling to Vettel's liking and he was no longer dominating.

.MS didn't dominate when the car wasn't to his liking either. No driver does when the car isn't working right.



#31 Schumster

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 12:14

Isn't it obvious, as mentioned before, that he's comparing a peak Alonso against an ageing, tired 37yo Schumacher? Wanna compare Alonso to Schumacher then compare the Schumacher of '00. Alonso is a very good driver, an all-time great IMO and I'd actually have him on par with Senna/Prost but not as good as Schumi because I truly believe a peak Schumster would have delivered the '10 & '12 titles.



#32 Galko877

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 12:18

Well he likes to change tune apparently then.

 

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/4216182.stm

 

Maybe the bad relation that he had with Alonso when he left has something to do about it?

 

Well, that was in 2005. It's natural that he would not say Schumacher is better while he's working with Alonso and Schumacher is a rival.


Edited by Galko877, 10 November 2013 - 12:20.


#33 Schumster

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 12:19

Well he likes to change tune apparently then.

 

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/4216182.stm

 

Maybe the bad relation that he had with Alonso when he left has something to do about it?

What else was he going to say in 2005? My driver is crap?

 

Symonds + Brawn + Murray Walker all say Schumacher is the GOAT and there's not many other opinions I've heard from the paddock (never heard Dennis/Todt/Briatore/Williams chime in), drivers excluded because as they were growing up and karting, Senna, understandbly, was their hero and they would be obliged to say he was the GOAT.



#34 EricSivry

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 12:20

Isn't it obvious, as mentioned before, that he's comparing a peak Alonso against an ageing, tired 37yo Schumacher? Wanna compare Alonso to Schumacher then compare the Schumacher of '00. Alonso is a very good driver, an all-time great IMO and I'd actually have him on par with Senna/Prost but not as good as Schumi because I truly believe a peak Schumster would have delivered the '10 & '12 titles.

 

Unfortunately, this is as baseless as someone saying that they truly believe Alonso would have delivered the 97 and 98 titles. Both were outstanding seasons for each driver and i don't think any less of them because they didn't get the titles. Frankly, i found it amazing that they were still in contention until the last race given the performance deficit of their cars.



#35 EricSivry

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 12:22

.MS didn't dominate when the car wasn't to his liking either. No driver does when the car isn't working right.

 

Vettel wasn't even beating his journeyman team mate.



#36 sv401

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 12:25

Vettel wasn't even beating his journeyman team mate.

 

Good thing the other, allegedly better drivers were never outperformed for short parts of a season by their team-mates. :up:



#37 Schumster

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 12:25

Unfortunately, this is as baseless as someone saying that they truly believe Alonso would have delivered the 97 and 98 titles. Both were outstanding seasons for each driver and i don't think any less of them because they didn't get the titles. Frankly, i found it amazing that they were still in contention until the last race given the performance deficit of their cars.

Spa '10 and Suzuka '12 + Intergalos '12 Schumacher, in his peak, would have most definitely had done better than to commit those errors/performed better drives.



#38 EricSivry

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 12:38

Spa '10 and Suzuka '12 + Intergalos '12 Schumacher, in his peak, would have most definitely had done better than to commit those errors/performed better drives.

 

Suzuka12 was not Alonso's fault. It was similar to what happened to Schumacher at Hockenheim 00.

 

Spa 10 - maybe, but Schumacher was not immune from making mistakes in the wet (Monaco 96, Imola 95).

 

Interlagos 12 - maybe. I think Schumacher was a better wet weather driver than Alonso is.

 

Like i said, great seasons from both. I think they got the maximum that could reasonably be expected from their cars in those seasons.



#39 BenettonB192

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 12:45

I guess we will agree to disagree. Vettel is great in these perfectly handling Red Bulls, but i don't think he would be able to get as much out of a poor handling car as the likes of Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton.

 

Look at the early races of 2012 - the car wasn't handling to Vettel's liking and he was no longer dominating.

 

Double standard much? You expect from Vettel to keep dominating in a bad handling car to proof he's as good as Alonso, Hamilton yet non of them is dominating in a bad handling car. Not even Schumacher (see 2005). Early 2012 Vettel underperformed maybe in qualifyings a little but managed decent damage control in the races. How is that different from when Alonso gets beaten by Massa in qualifying or Hamilton by Rosberg?



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#40 Tsarwash

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 12:53

Unfortunately, this is as baseless as someone saying that they truly believe Alonso would have delivered the 97 and 98 titles. Both were outstanding seasons for each driver and i don't think any less of them because they didn't get the titles. Frankly, i found it amazing that they were still in contention until the last race given the performance deficit of their cars.

 

Alonso would have done great in F1 in the 90s when the cars were harder to drive. Same goes for Hamilton.

 

At the other end of the spectrum, Vettel would struggle with 90s cars.

You can't just dismiss anothers opinion as baseless, and then present your own opinion as fact, (with no justification.) That's just highly hypocritical.


Edited by Tsarwash, 10 November 2013 - 13:03.


#41 EricSivry

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 12:59

Double standard much? You expect from Vettel to keep dominating in a bad handling car to proof he's as good as Alonso, Hamilton yet non of them is dominating in a bad handling car. Not even Schumacher (see 2005). Early 2012 Vettel underperformed maybe in qualifyings a little but managed decent damage control in the races. How is that different from when Alonso gets beaten by Massa in qualifying or Hamilton by Rosberg?

 

Just look at Malaysia 12. Alonso did great to win in an ill handling car, while Massa was struggling at the back and was almost lapped. Canada 12, Hamilton wins while Button is trailing around the back.

 

Vettel on the other hand could not handle an ill handling car in China 12 and was beaten by his teammate in both qualifying and the race.

 

The early races of 2012 told us alot. The cars lost a whole chunk of rear downforce because the change in exhaust rules which made the cars less predictable and harder to drive.



#42 EricSivry

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 13:03

Lets not elevate Schumacher into a mythical god who never made mistakes. In Japan 98 with a chance of the WDC he stalled on the grid from pole. 

 

You can't just dismiss anothers opinion as baseless, and then present your own opinion as fact, (with no justification.) That's just highly hypocritical.

 

no justification? We've seen what a great job Alonso did in the early 2012 with an ill handling car.



#43 Schumster

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 13:06

 

The stall was Schumacher's fault? Laughable.



#44 Schumster

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 13:06

Suzuka12 was not Alonso's fault. It was similar to what happened to Schumacher at Hockenheim 00.

 

Spa 10 - maybe, but Schumacher was not immune from making mistakes in the wet (Monaco 96, Imola 95).

 

Interlagos 12 - maybe. I think Schumacher was a better wet weather driver than Alonso is.

 

Like i said, great seasons from both. I think they got the maximum that could reasonably be expected from their cars in those seasons.

Maybe = A begrudging probable yes hence Schumacher claiming the title in both years.



#45 sv401

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 13:10

Just look at Malaysia 12. Alonso did great to win in an ill handling car, while Massa was struggling at the back and was almost lapped.

 

It is not possible to "outdrive" a car, and he was challenged for the win by a not too highly rated driver in a Sauber. The only thing this definitely confirms is that Massa's performance was sub-par.

 

Vettel on the other hand could not handle an ill handling car in China 12 and was beaten by his teammate in both qualifying and the race.

 

They had different cars, and the configuration used by Webber was faster, as confirmed by the fact that it is what was used for the rest of the season. By the way, Alonso was outqualified 8 times (and counting) by Massa in 2013; was the car ill handling, or is the Spaniard one of those who are allegedly only fast in bad cars ?



#46 Tsarwash

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 13:15

 

The stall was Schumacher's fault? Laughable.

Sorry, I edited my comment out as it was mostly irrelevant. My point was that Schumacher made mistakes just as every F1 driver has done. It's just stupid to claim otherwise. 



#47 Tsarwash

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 13:17

no justification? We've seen what a great job Alonso did in the early 2012 with an ill handling car.

Where's your justification that Vettel would struggle in 90's cars ?



#48 EricSivry

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 13:21

Maybe = A begrudging probable yes hence Schumacher claiming the title in both years.

 

Fine whatever you say.

 

I think Alonso would win the 97 title - he wouldn't make the mistakes in Buenos Aires, A1 Ring and Jerez. See how easy it is to do that?



#49 sv401

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 13:21

no justification? We've seen what a great job Alonso did in the early 2012 with an ill handling car.

 

Without rain induced chaos, 9th and 7th place in China and Bahrain, only 5-7 seconds ahead of his useless no.2 team-mate. There are no miracles.



#50 EricSivry

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 13:27

Where's your justification that Vettel would struggle in 90's cars ?

 

http://www.dailymoti...sis-part2_sport

 

http://www.dailymoti...sis-part2_sport

 

Anthony Davidson explains how Vettel struggles with an unstable rear end.