70 replies to this topic

[Schumster]

Fine whatever you say.

 

I think Alonso would win the 97 title - he wouldn't make the mistakes in Buenos Aires, A1 Ring and Jerez. See how easy it is to do that?

Argentina was way, way too early on in the season, I'm clearly talking about the latter half of the season.

 

A1 Ring? What mistake? Again, no fault on Schumacher's part.

 

Jerez? Irrelevant, that wasn't a mistake but more a v.dirty move + irrelevant as Villeneuve was ahead and hence default WDC.

[EricSivry]

Without rain induced chaos, 9th and 7th place in China and Bahrain, only 5-7 seconds ahead of his useless no.2 team-mate. There are no miracles.

 

Rain was the same for everyone.

 

What about Australia, 5th, and where was Massa?

 

All those qualifying sessions he made it into Q3 while Massa could only make Q2.

[sv401]

Rain was the same for everyone.

 

Including Perez, who challenged Alonso in an arguably worse car. A wet race is often a lottery, where anything can happen. Even Fisichella could win once in a Jordan.

 

What about Australia, 5th, and where was Massa?

 

All those qualifying sessions he made it into Q3 while Massa could only make Q2.

 

Most people agree that Massa's performance in the first half of 2012 was unacceptably poor. That is why, for example, Webber was offered his seat by Ferrari for 2013. However, a badly performing team-mate does not necessarily prove a driver's greatness. At least that is what I heard whenever there was a large gap between Vettel and Webber anyway.

[ebc]

Just look at Malaysia 12. Alonso did great to win in an ill handling car, while Massa was struggling at the back and was almost lapped. Canada 12, Hamilton wins while Button is trailing around the back.

Vettel on the other hand could not handle an ill handling car in China 12 and was beaten by his teammate in both qualifying and the race.

The early races of 2012 told us alot. The cars lost a whole chunk of rear downforce because the change in exhaust rules which made the cars less predictable and harder to drive.

Vettel was leading the championship in the early races of 2012,what does that tell you.

Webber only outscored Vettel because Seb had non scores in Malaysia and Valencia, it was a bit like 1992 when Berger outscored Senna for the first 9 races, using your logic that means Senna can't handle a bad car.

Every little problem Vettel has someone writes it down and bring it up when they want to put him down yet ignore when the same thing happens to other drivers. It is about time people realised his greatness.

As for Alonso vs Schumacher, Michael was relentless, after every defeat he was always stronger the next year, I can't say the same about Alonso

Edited by ebc, 10 November 2013 - 13:43.

[Shambolic]

You know what, he's right. Alonso is more intelligent - He'd never finalise his decision to retire based on wanting the best for his team mate.

[OvDrone]

Massa would say that though given the current circumstances.

[EricSivry]

Argentina was way, way too early on in the season, I'm clearly talking about the latter half of the season.

 

A1 Ring? What mistake? Again, no fault on Schumacher's part.

 

Jerez? Irrelevant, that wasn't a mistake but more a v.dirty move + irrelevant as Villeneuve was ahead and hence default WDC.

 

Why should we ignore mistakes from first half of the season?

 

A1 ring - he passed Frentzen under yellow flags.

 

Jerez - he left the door open for Villeneuve to make a pass. Either way, Villeneuve clearly braked too late for the corner. He could have let him go, and cut back inside him on the exit of the corner.

[RealRacing]

Massa is, consciously or unconsciously, playing the self-preservation game. He has been beaten by FA badly, therefore he has to make him look better to make himself look better.

[Mandzipop]

Can we keep Vettel out of this topic? This thread is about Massa's comments about Alonso and Schumacher. I don't see what Vettel has to do with that.

[Boxerevo]

I do agree that Fernando's racing IQ is one of the best, but to say he is better than Schumacher at his vintage years is another thing. And Michael was very, very good in 2006 when they raced, but he was not the same driver as he was in his earlier years. One could say the same about Alonso, he is a much better driver now than in 2006, or it shows that way.

 

Felipe never raced aganist that 1990s Michael Schumacher who was arugbably the finest driver of that time. But I do see some simlair things between Fernando and Michael given their teammates, they both rather beat them by a large margin. I do believe Alonso's 2012 season was like Michael's 1998 season where he was absolutely the finest driving year of his career given the cars he had given in a single season alone.                             

 

 

We will not know the true answer never,but the only if we trust what Massa is saying is in truth is that Michael raced with him in that time and Fernando now,he feels Alonso is stronger in overall terms.

 

No doubt Schumacher was already past his prime when Massa got in.

[sv401]

Regarding Massa vs. Alonso and Schumacher, Massa is actually still not that bad over one lap, and has even been closer to Alonso in qualifying in 2013 than he was to Schumacher in 2006. In terms of race results, however, there is a larger gap now. That could be interpreted as Alonso doing better than Schumacher did in 2006 (at least as far as mistakes are concerned, since those can be counted easily), although it should also be taken into consideration that the circumstances are now somewhat different, and expose Massa's weaknesses more. The field is closer, so being off pace by a few tenths now often means a mid-field finishing position, rather than battling Fisichella's Renault for 3rd, or even inheriting a second place or win after Schumacher's problems/mistakes. With Pirelli tyres and the ban on refueling, some skills became more important as well, such as managing fragile tyres while still being fast enough over a stint, and racing in traffic.

[prty]

Well, that was in 2005. It's natural that he would not say Schumacher is better while he's working with Alonso and Schumacher is a rival.

 

What else was he going to say in 2005? My driver is crap?

 

Symonds + Brawn + Murray Walker all say Schumacher is the GOAT and there's not many other opinions I've heard from the paddock (never heard Dennis/Todt/Briatore/Williams chime in), drivers excluded because as they were growing up and karting, Senna, understandbly, was their hero and they would be obliged to say he was the GOAT.

 

Equally, hearing this:

 

http://www.motorspor...-on-schumacher/

 

One could think he's ******** with Alonso, and as Schumacher was friendlier to him, he would praise him more.

[V3TT3L]

How can an inferior driver judge superior ones 

 

Felipe Baby, it happens the other way around 

Edited by V3TT3L, 10 November 2013 - 14:58.

[Gilles4Ever]

Driver vs driver threads where they are not team mates are not allowed. This thread is over that line, get back to the topic and the question posed or it will be closed.

 

My question to all: If Fernando was at Ferrari in the mid 1990s, like Schumacher was, and had the same exact team with Ross Brawn-Rory Byrne and Jean Todt.... Would Fernando be as successful as Michael Schumacher was?

 

That is the discussion, nothing else.

[PoleMan]

Interesting how quickly people rush to invalidate an opinion they find abhorrent, even though the author of that opinion has far more direct evidence to base it on than any in here. 

 

Massa first drove in 2002 at Ferrari's quasi-satellite team, Sauber, then was a Ferrari test driver in 2003 before moving back to Sauber in '04 and '05, then joining Schumi in '06. To say he only became familiar with Michael's driving in '06 as an "old man" is ludicrous. He raced against him and got to see Schumi's racecraft in '02, '04 and '05, and got to witness his skill/judgment on the circuits. He would also be familiar with the strengths/shortcomings of the Ferrari engine. But it was the season of testing alongside MS in 2003, intimately learning from and observing one of the greatest F1 drivers of all time, that he would have seen Michael at his best/worst. In '06, he got to build on that knowledge as he went head to head against Michael in practice, quali and the races...just as he has done with Alonso the last 4 years. I may or may not agree with Massa's opinion of Alonso's talent-level versus the other F1 teammates Felipe competed against, but I won't attack his integrity by inventing ulterior motives out of whole cloth. 

 

EDIT: And in answer to the question of whether Fernando could have done what Schumacher did during his dominant years...sure. Alonso's level of consistency, work ethic and commitment have been lauded by many in F1. His driving style is highly adaptable and he's also a team leader. I think those added qualities of leadership, adaptability and consistency, on top of outright pace, mean he could certainly have matched Michael's success. But "ifs" and "buts" don't amount to much.

Edited by PoleMan, 10 November 2013 - 16:12.

[sv401]

Massa first drove in 2002 at Ferrari's quasi-satellite team, Sauber, then was a Ferrari test driver in 2003 before moving back to Sauber in '04 and '05, then joining Schumi in '06. To say he only became familiar with Michael's driving in '06 as an "old man" is ludicrous. He raced against him and got to see Schumi's racecraft in '02, '04 and '05, and got to witness his skill/judgment on the circuits.

 

2006 is the only year when Massa had experience competing against Schumacher as a team-mate. At Sauber, he was not really more familiar with Schumacher's driving than other drivers on the grid in different cars, and his experience was mostly limited to being lapped by the Ferraris occasionally. Also, on a test track, one does not find out too much about a driver's racing skills.

 

I may or may not agree with Massa's opinion of Alonso's talent-level versus the other F1 teammates Felipe competed against, but I won't attack his integrity by inventing ulterior motives out of whole cloth. 

 

Massa is a nice guy and might not be a "liar", but he is somewhat infamous for his unwillingness to admit fault, and looking for excuses when he does not perform well. This might not have anything to do with ulterior motives, and could be a sub-conscious defensive reaction to being beaten. Especially for a driver like Massa, it is important not to lose confidence in his own abilities.

Edited by sv401, 10 November 2013 - 16:48.

[PoleMan]

 

2006 is the only year when Massa had experience competing against Schumacher as a team-mate. At Sauber, he was not really more familiar with Schumacher's driving than other drivers on the grid in different cars, and his experience was mostly limited to being lapped by the Ferraris occasionally. Also, on a test track, one does not find out too much about a driver's racing skills.

 

 

Massa is a nice guy and might not be a "liar", but he is somewhat infamous for his unwillingness to admit fault, and looking for excuses when he does not perform well. This might not have anything to do with ulterior motives, and could be a sub-conscious defensive reaction to being beaten. Especially for a driver like Massa, it is important not to lose confidence in his own abilities.

 

Massa was also Schumacher's "teammate" as a Ferrari test driver in '03." He was with him for a year-- granted, not competing against him --but perhaps more beneficially, sharing data and insights with him! Obviously, it was in a learning capacity, but Felipe got an intimate view of Michael's driving, debriefings, changes in setup that you and I will never see.Obviously you're more confident than I to write that off as having little value.

 

I also won't join you in trying to psychoanalyze Felipe. There have been far to many "medical professionals" on here with detailed knowledge of Felipe's head injury and its impact on his driving skill, so why not have one more "medical amateur" take a stab at his mental health?

Edited by PoleMan, 10 November 2013 - 17:27.

[sennafan24]

How can an inferior driver judge superior ones 

 

Felipe Baby, it happens the other way around 

Because he has competed directly against both, he will know better than most what both are capable of and who is hardest to beat. Not saying he is right, but he is a decent judge.

 

Its very hard to compare though, as Massa faced Schumi in 2006, and Alonso in 2010-2013. Alonso was at his peak, Schumi had slowed down a bit by 2006 in my opinion. 2003 he would make the odd mistake, and 2004 he was flattered by a dominant car, and in terms of percentage Rubens was closer than ever in 2004. 2005 is very inconclusive due to how bad the car was. 2006 I believe Alonso did surpass him, it seemed the Ferrari was had a advantage on the same amount of weekends as the Renualt did, and Alonso was just a bit better driver in my opinion. I would have to go back and watch that year again though, it has been a bit,

 

But still, Massa may think that Alonso did a better job with the machinery and circumstances in 2010-2013, then Schumi did in 2006, and he would probably be right, but again Schumi whilst still world class was getting on a bit.

 

Edit: Just seen the above: 2003 was where some think Schumi stated losing it a tad as a driver, 1993-2002 is seen as his prime by most, so again it is possible Massa was not seeing Schumi at his very best.

 

If Massa was teammates with both in similar years under similar rules, he would have more of a valid opinion though.

Edited by sennafan24, 10 November 2013 - 18:21.

[garagetinkerer]

So Alonso who squealed that his team wasn't supporting him to win WDC in '06 is more together... right! Massa has a right to his opinion, and as much as i like him, this just seems a very weird thing to suggest. As someone said earlier... you mention Shcumacher at the beginning of most lists... Alonso at middle part... that is self-explanatory.

[sennafan24]

So Alonso who squealed that his team wasn't supporting him to win WDC in '06 is more together... right! Massa has a right to his opinion, and as much as i like him, this just seems a very weird thing to suggest. As someone said earlier... you mention Shcumacher at the beginning of most lists... Alonso at middle part... that is self-explanatory.

Yeah I agree there, Alonso was a maniac in 2006.

 

The Monaco incident where he threatened to lie on the track in front of the cars is evidence of that. Talented guy, maybe the best on the grid at that stage, but still a not mentally stable. 

[Gilles4Ever]

Some just can't read warnings. This thread can't keep to the topic.