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Customer Cars: Good or Bad for F1?


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Poll: Are Customer Cars good for F1? (39 member(s) have cast votes)

Customer Cars, good or bad?

  1. Good (20 votes [51.28%])

    Percentage of vote: 51.28%

  2. Bad (19 votes [48.72%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.72%

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#1 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 11:52

With the likelihood of Customer Cars being in F1 more and more realistic, will it help or hamper the sport?

 

Personally, I don't mind having customer cars. There was a brief spurt between 2006-2008 where they raced (Super Aguri and Toro Rosso), Super Aguri were quite well liked and if it wasn't for a Customer Car, Vettel would have never achieved his famous win in Monza 2008.

 

Customer Car teams would be great for training young engineers as there are very few motorsports you can help build cars and we could see a lack of them in years to come. It would also help drivers who may not have a chance to prove themselves, to actually race in F1.


Edited by FullThrottleF1, 12 November 2013 - 12:10.


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#2 alframsey

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:04

I am in two minds about this. On the one hand I think yes it would be good if only to push the back markers further up the field, while on the other hand surely any achievements a team has with a customer car is diminished is it not? 



#3 muramasa

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:08

voted for bad but it depends on definition of customer car. Even under the current rule there are very close technical corporations between big teams and small teams, like Sauber using Ferrari transmission, Caterham using RBR's, FI and Merc, Marrusia and Mclaren, etc iirc. Current situation isnt bad imo, smaller teams can benefit from top teams expertise for key components and save money while still building their own cars, and teams like Sauber can pursue unique ideas.



#4 Buttoneer

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:09

Dieter Rencken picked this up at the Japanese GP in the Thursday press conference.  Note this is the Autosport version so if you are not a subscriber then it will tick off one of your limited free views, so try the FIA version instead.  Hopefully this will help to inform the discussion.

 

 

Q: (Dieter Rencken - RacingLines) Gentlemen, there has been a lot of talk about Formula One possibly adopting customer cars. Now this concept could put some of you out of a job for obvious reasons and turn others into super salesmen. Where do you stand on this particular issue from an engineering or technical perspective?

 

Jonathan Neale: It's a contentious subject which of course is why you asked the question. I think that on the one hand Formula One still has to be the pinnacle of motor sport and there is a certain sense of technical endeavour in that, providing that we moderate that from a financial point of view. Customer cars is a game-changer, certainly for the independent teams; it fundamentally changes that business model and I think before Formula One goes about that, I think it needs to look at the economic sustainability of the various business models that exist. Whether you're premium brand, whether you're independent or whether you're an entrant into it, then in any market sense, you make sure that you've got something that works holistically. Technically, for us, it's not as big a deal. I think commercially it's a much bigger issue but I don't think the technical guys will say it's too much of a challenge. But it would fundamentally change for me what Formula One is and I think Formula One is about the pinnacle of motor sport and that technical element is very important to it, and I believe that the independent teams would say the same thing.

 

Pat Fry: Well, I suppose in reality it's more a question for the team principals than engineers really. From an engineering point of view, I'm sure it would be relatively easy to put something in place but it's more, as Jonathan was saying, about which way do we want to see the sport going.

 

Paul Monaghan: From a purely technical point of view, Formula One is the Constructors' championship - there's a Drivers' championship and a Constructors' championship and therefore, solely from that point of view, then we ought to compete against one another. However, we currently sell parts to other teams as we're permitted to do so, so an amount of part-sharing, to ease the burden on other teams that wish to buy certain components from us, then I think it's absolutely the right thing to do. If that expands a little bit and all the teams agree, then it's probably a helpful thing for the sport.

 

Dave Greenwood: Personally, I think we've got the balance about right at the minute. What you can and can't buy from someone else is probably about the right place and still gives us the ability to be engineers and go off and design things and not just take wholesale someone else's parts. I think in effect it allows us to buy the really complicated bits - gearboxes, hydraulics etc - and then lets us go off and concentrate on the other parts.

 

Tom McCullough: Yeah, I really can't add too much more. For us, as performance-base engineers running a spec car or a customer car wouldn't be as much fun. Like Dave was just saying, some of the more complicated expensive parts with a lot of tooling research and development, I think the balance is pretty good at the moment. Then we, as trackside engineers, can push hard on the performance side of the car and that's a fantastic opportunity for people like myself working with great wind tunnels, great bunch of people, just developing performance.

 

Q: James, Toro Rosso have just invested quite a lot in their technical assets recently.

James Key: Absolutely. It's often maybe misunderstood but Toro Rosso's very much a team in its own right. We work well with Red Bull where we can, for example the same engine for next year and so on but yes, we have invested. I think, certainly, there's a commercial side which is not within the remit of technical directors to comment on but technically it's not difficult but there's a big emotional thing there because we are all competitive people who want to go and beat the other guy and a big part of that is making your own car so it's quite a big topic on a number of levels, I think.

 

Q: Anything further to add, Jonathan, having heard from the technical directors?

JN: Only that I would echo that the balance of being able to trade parts to a team that maybe has a smaller budget or is a new entrant I think is a really important part of attracting investors in, because as in any business you want to invest what resource you have in what makes a difference and it takes time to put the capital footprint down and to put the competence in place. If you're trying to do all that from day one, your chance of survival and then running properly into the series... I think the risk is induced and you make it less attractive as an investment proposition.

 

 

Personally, I think that if it results in the teams droppings lots of clever people then this is a bad thing.  It dumbs down the sport.  For me, the drivers are secondary to the whole event anyway and I love the clever stuff they come up with despite the small areas of flexibility the rules give them. Losing these from half the teams would be quite sad.



#5 johnwilliamdavies

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:10

If it would mean new teams entering, then I'd be for it. If it made a Formula 1 entry affordable enough we might even get pre-qualifying back. 



#6 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:13

I liked Neals idea of being able to give more parts to new entrants, that would certainly help them to become settled.



#7 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:22

I'm in favor. But I'm also in favor for having everything individual. So no more engine sharing. If you want to be a constructor, you should built everything yourself. That would put a bit of an end to the endless aero development when teams have to make an engine as well.



#8 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:26

I'm in favor. But I'm also in favor for having everything individual. So no more engine sharing. If you want to be a constructor, you should built everything yourself. That would put a bit of an end to the endless aero development when teams have to make an engine as well.

Interesting, in 2002, only 2 teams shared a engine with another team! (Jaguar and Arrows ran Cosworths and Jordan and BAR ran Hondas).



#9 bombastic

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:35

Strictly against. The likes of FI, Sauber & Co. will (not might) cease to exist. 



#10 Buttoneer

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:50

Strictly against. The likes of FI, Sauber & Co. will (not might) cease to exist. 

Even if the teams don't, their technical teams will.



#11 Fastcake

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:54

Against. It worked in a different era, but to bring customer cars in now will lead to F1 having a single chassis/engine combination in 10 years time.

#12 northell

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:55

I dont know. Im not sure. might be inevitable if the current money crisis doesent go away and f1 wants to stay alive at all.

Edited by northell, 12 November 2013 - 12:55.


#13 jimbox01

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 13:04

Didn't Frank Williams start off running a March chassis?

 

As far as I can see, the cost of designing and manufacturing a car isn't necessarily the issue, making it competitive is where all the money goes, and unless you've got a minimum of £85M a year to spend, you're never even going to get a sniff of a point.  Add another £100-£125M and you might even challenge Red Bull!

 

You could help lower budget (budget capped?) teams become more competitive by allowing them greater technical flexibility, or you could fill up the grid with teams running customer cars, but either way you still end up with a two tier grid, so you've got to ask the question, why?  What exactly is the object of the exercise?  Is it to simply fill up the grid with cars so it looks better on TV, or does the cartel at the top genuinely want to improve F1? - more likely they'd like an additional revenue stream.

 

What if there was a way to open up the technical regulations (for everyone), so that teams didn't need to spend £100M on complex aero development, just to gain a few tenths here and there?

Teams like Red Bull could still spend £250M developing sophisticated aerodynamic packages if they wanted to, but if someone else could come up with a way to gain the same or more time, but much more cheaply, then maybe they should be allowed to do it.  But then is F1 supposed to be about designing the fastest cars possible, or the most complex and costly?

 

Why not open up the regulations, allow engineers and designers to innovate, and see what happens.  Provided cars pass all the relevant crash tests and circuit safety can cope, why not just let them go for it.



#14 PayasYouRace

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 13:18

I think F1 should do what it must to survive and retain a healthy entry list. Allowing customer cars is a way to do that, if implemented properly.

 

For example, customer cars would (should?) not score WCC points (by definition really), so teams that choose not to build their own car would be ineligible for rewards payed out for WCC position.

 

Stuff like that would need to be put in place to entice teams to build their own cars when possible. It would possibly be a good way to bring new teams in. Start off with a single customer McLaren or whatever, expand to a two car team in the next year, then start building your own cars as you become successful.



#15 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 13:35

Didn't Frank Williams start off running a March chassis?

 

As far as I can see, the cost of designing and manufacturing a car isn't necessarily the issue, making it competitive is where all the money goes, and unless you've got a minimum of £85M a year to spend, you're never even going to get a sniff of a point.  Add another £100-£125M and you might even challenge Red Bull!

 

You could help lower budget (budget capped?) teams become more competitive by allowing them greater technical flexibility, or you could fill up the grid with teams running customer cars, but either way you still end up with a two tier grid, so you've got to ask the question, why?  What exactly is the object of the exercise?  Is it to simply fill up the grid with cars so it looks better on TV, or does the cartel at the top genuinely want to improve F1? - more likely they'd like an additional revenue stream.

 

What if there was a way to open up the technical regulations (for everyone), so that teams didn't need to spend £100M on complex aero development, just to gain a few tenths here and there?

Teams like Red Bull could still spend £250M developing sophisticated aerodynamic packages if they wanted to, but if someone else could come up with a way to gain the same or more time, but much more cheaply, then maybe they should be allowed to do it.  But then is F1 supposed to be about designing the fastest cars possible, or the most complex and costly?

 

Why not open up the regulations, allow engineers and designers to innovate, and see what happens.  Provided cars pass all the relevant crash tests and circuit safety can cope, why not just let them go for it.

I fully agree. The current rule set only gives advantage to the big spender for 0.01s on another front wing flap. I find the LeMans series much more attractive due to the different car designs. Audi, Toyota, Porsche and Rebellion clearly have different designs.

 

I think F1 should do what it must to survive and retain a healthy entry list. Allowing customer cars is a way to do that, if implemented properly.

 

For example, customer cars would (should?) not score WCC points (by definition really), so teams that choose not to build their own car would be ineligible for rewards payed out for WCC position.

 

Stuff like that would need to be put in place to entice teams to build their own cars when possible. It would possibly be a good way to bring new teams in. Start off with a single customer McLaren or whatever, expand to a two car team in the next year, then start building your own cars as you become successful.

WDC > Drivers

WTC > Teams

WCC > Constructors

WEC > Engines

:p



#16 Hans V

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 13:39

Bad. F1 would end up in a DTM-like situation, with Three or four four-car teams (i.e. A and B teams) dominating and possibly some also-rans.



#17 PayasYouRace

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 13:43

 

WDC > Drivers

WTC > Teams

WCC > Constructors

WEC > Engines

:p

 

Not necessarily a bad idea.



#18 jimbox01

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 14:19

I fully agree. The current rule set only gives advantage to the big spender for 0.01s on another front wing flap. I find the LeMans series much more attractive due to the different car designs. Audi, Toyota, Porsche and Rebellion clearly have different designs.

 

WDC > Drivers

WTC > Teams

WCC > Constructors

WEC > Engines

:p

Do you mean like the Jim Clark Trophy for drivers of cars with naturally aspirated engines, and Colin Chapman Trophy for constructors of cars with naturally aspirated engines?

They tried the B championship idea in 1987, and I'm sure everyone remembers who won them. :)

 

Which rider won the Moto GP title this year?

Who was the top CRT rider?

Everyone knows the first answer, but I bet most people (like me) would need to look up the second one.

 

I know who won the BTCC title (bit of a nail biter) but who got the Jack Sears Trophy?

 

B championships fill up the grid and provide a bit more entertainment (if you like crashes), but don't really do anything for the overall competition, hardly anyone remembers who won them, and they're not exactly worth a huge amount to potential sponsors either - bit of cheap on-track advertising, but you're hardly going to build a TV campaign around the winner of the Jim Clark Trophy.

 

 

Customer cars = B Championship

B Championship = waste of time

 

Customer cars may have worked back in the day, but things have changed since the 70's, and I'd much rather see them fix the problem, rather than paper over the cracks again with yet another gimmick.



#19 PayasYouRace

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 14:25

The suggestion wasn't for a B class of championship. At least not the way I understood it.

 

I took it to mean that only constructors (those that build their own cars) would score WCC points. But all the teams would score in the Teams' Championship. Bernie money would be split between the two championships, so that the constructors get their extra reward for their extra hard work, but the teams aren't shafted. Doing this is not like creating a class B.

 

So maybe you'd have a situation where Red Bull would win the WCC, thanks to points scored by Toro Rosso. But the WTC would be Ferrari, who generally beat RBR over the season. Sure, Prodrive and DAMS or whoever would feature in that list somewhere, but they wouldn't be battling for the championship unless they were genuinely front runners.

 

PS. It was Jonathan Palmer and Tyrrell of course.



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#20 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 14:47

WDC = Every driver

WTC = Every 2 car team. Perhaps allow 1 or 3 car teams as well or give teams a chance to run different liveries within the team. Only the 2 highest ranking drivers of a team count for this championship? Could be a problem in a Kimi situation with an injury. It does prevent driver swapping like in current day IndyCar.

WCC = Every chassis constructor, perhaps only the first 2 of each constructor scores points.

WEC = Every engine maker, also only the first 2 score points.

 

It is a bit like the mid '90s IndyCar I guess. You had multiple teams choosing between 4-5 chassis (or make their own) and possibly 4-5 engine makers. Penske, Raynard? and Lola jump to mind. Just like Ford, Chevrolet, Honda and Mercedes engines.


Edited by SenorSjon, 12 November 2013 - 14:47.