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Mini vs. A40/35


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#1 RCH

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 13:11

The Racing Minors thread got me thinking. Why did the Mini not swamp the A40s and 35s in the BSCC/BTCC in 1960? By '61 the A40 had all but disappeared but if you check out Frank de Jong's great website you will see that the Mini was very much behind in 1960. That year the championship was for 1-litre cars only and allowed considerable modification. Was the Mini really struggling missing that 100cc. against the A40, or were there other problems? Returning to the limited mods in 1961 must have favoured the Mini. 



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#2 275 GTB-4

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 04:16

The Racing Minors thread got me thinking. Why did the Mini not swamp the A40s and 35s in the BSCC/BTCC in 1960? By '61 the A40 had all but disappeared but if you check out Frank de Jong's great website you will see that the Mini was very much behind in 1960. That year the championship was for 1-litre cars only and allowed considerable modification. Was the Mini really struggling missing that 100cc. against the A40, or were there other problems? Returning to the limited mods in 1961 must have favoured the Mini. 

 

Gearboxes were an achilles heel in early cars and the capacity limitation probably didn't help...throw in tyres, brakes etc and you have a car under development (but soon to become a giant killer)


Edited by 275 GTB-4, 15 November 2013 - 04:17.


#3 JtP1

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:17

My first thought is  "were 10" racing tyres available in 1960?"



#4 RCH

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 13:08

Yes I guess tyres were the problem, which presumably explains why they came to dominate the small class in 1961, by which time suitable tyres were presumably available. It's just that I have this picture in my head of the Mini dominating straight out of the box. 



#5 GMACKIE

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 19:49

Not sure of the date, but '62 or 63', I was next to Ron Hodgson in the pits at Warwick Farm. When I remarked on the wear on the left front tyre on his Downton Mini, Ron complained of only getting about 6 laps out of that tyre, if he really drove hard....which he did!

 

From memory they were Dunlop RS4s.


Edited by GMACKIE, 15 November 2013 - 20:58.


#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 19:59

Hoddo at the Farm...

 

He was there in October '62, maybe early '63. They would have been the same pattern and build of racing tyres as on the leading open-wheelers of the day. To confirm October '62, was the tow car a blue 2-door '61 Impala with a 409 and 4-speed box?



#7 GMACKIE

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 20:36

They were not racing tyres, Ray...not allowed in Appendix J. I remember comparing them to my [2nd hand] Michelin X tyres. Ron used those tyres [I'm almost certain they were RS4s], as there was not much else to chose from in 10". Ron Haylen, whose Mini was next to Hoddo's, did not have quite as much trouble with wear.

 

The 'Farm' was very hard on tyres, as the 'new' hot-mix surface used crushed blast furnace slag in the mix - very abrasive!

 

Edit:  Didn't notice the Impala, Ray, as I always drove my car to and from the circuit.  No time to snoop around the 'tender area'.  ;)


Edited by GMACKIE, 15 November 2013 - 20:59.


#8 Sharman

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 20:40

Until fairly late in 1960 there was a problem with wheel centre pulling out. I remember the interest generated when the first competition replacements came to hand stamped MG. Nobody expected the Mini Cooper, the money was on a bit of internal badge engineering.



#9 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 21:18

The Chev, which was the one Dan Gurney raced in England, was there with the car immediately after the cessation of activities, Greg...

 

You couldn't miss it. RH-218 numberplates, an aura of serious Yankee muscle around it.

 

And yes, you could well be right about the racing tyres, though I'm sure Muiro's S4 had racing tyres in '64 (prior to the end of App J), in fact that was what got him into trouble at the Lakeside ATCC event.

 

Perhaps a look at pics in The Ultimate Excitement would give some answers?



#10 JtP1

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 21:38

10" racing tyres could be purchased from Dunlop in R6 pattern and green spot rubber, So they were probably available from sometime in 63.



#11 GMACKIE

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 21:53

Towards the end of the Appendix J era, after much pressure from the 'well-heeled' teams, racing tyres were permitted. The reasoning was that the road tyres were unsafe at the speeds they were reaching. That made things difficult for those who couldn't afford the [expensive] race tyres.

 

I do remember the Impala...I think Laurie O'Neil owned it for a while, too.



#12 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 22:18

Nothing is new there Greg. Proper race tyres are safer and also more expensive. On the faster circuits the more powerfull cars would have been way over their speed rating.
Same now, nominally the same cars and for the fast cars you had a choice of near impossible to buy Yokohama or Hoosier. Nominally V rated tyres [Hoosier is not marked!] At PI last year the so called 'gun' tyre was the Bridgestone,,, made in H rating only and too small for the 8" rims being used anyway. Daryl Hansen had one break up, continued anyway and crashed taking another car with him. Might I add the V rated tyre is 140mph rated but Tony Hubbard claimed he was doing a 160mph which I believe so the V rated tyres are actually way below their rating.
Where is CAMS on these potential disasters? Playing Ostrich it seems!

#13 Catalina Park

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 00:24

It was 1961 before the wheel problems on the Mini were solved. I heve the BMC Australia service bulletins for that period.

#14 Catalina Park

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 01:11

It was 1961 before the wheel problems on the Mini were solved. I heve the BMC Australia service bulletins for that period.

Reading the bulletins again and it looks like the UK had solved the problems earlier. The competition wheels were already available from the UK when the Mini was released in Australia in March 1961.
It was later on in 61 that the strong wheels filtered through into production.



#15 Sharman

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 08:44

You didn't believe me did you? I told you late 60, I remember doing a sprint (CUAC) in March 1960 in my Minor 1000 which the organisers had put down in the entry list as M/Minor and everybody thought that we'd magicked an increase from 848 cc to 960 in a Mini. 



#16 275 GTB-4

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 23:32


You didn't believe me did you? I told you late 60, I remember doing a sprint (CUAC) in March 1960 in my Minor 1000 which the organisers had put down in the entry list as M/Minor and everybody thought that we'd magicked an increase from 848 cc to 960 in a Mini. 

 

Ummm Sharman, you are talking about Morries and Catalina is talking about Mini's (I am thinking)


Edited by 275 GTB-4, 16 November 2013 - 23:33.


#17 Sharman

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 10:54

Well understood GTB, back when the world was young the Mini was marketed as the Mini Minor or the Austin 7, both only available with 848cc. The organisers (CUAC), had put me down as a M/Minor. People as diverse as Peter Westbury and Dickie Stoop came round to view the supposed 960 cc Mini.



#18 D-Type

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 13:06

960cc or 948cc ?



#19 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 18:37

960cc would be a standard rebore size...

 

0.020" oversize, probably.



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#20 Sharman

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 18:56

Spot on Ray



#21 Gary C

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 20:16

strangely enough, here's my latest thing.....the Nike Formula Ford is now history.

 

bupu.jpg
 



#22 GMACKIE

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 20:47

Wow, you've got a Landy. :clap:



#23 Gary C

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 21:52

a what??



#24 275 GTB-4

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 23:47

a what??

 

The sneakily camouflaged 4WD in the background :-)



#25 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 01:21

Oh... I thought he meant an Austin 1800!

#26 GMACKIE

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 01:38

No, not the crustacean, Ray....Mick spotted it.



#27 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:05

Wow, you've got a Landy. :clap:

In camouflage.

#28 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:10

When I think of A40s I think of the round ones. Not these new fangled things like pictured disguising a Landrover.
And Minis are a tiny butterbox with 10" wheels. Unlike the one I saw yesterday that seemed nearly as big [and as heavy] as my Galaxie Though it did have a Hot Bricks sticker. Not a brick but a Besser block!