136 replies to this topic

[chris1234560]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/111312

 

A possible cause to Hamiltons issues? Interesting they can't be sure how long the cracks were present.

[jrg19]

Maybe it got cracked in Italy when he went off track?

[TecnoRacing]

I don't understand how, within a top line f1 team, this type of thing can go 'unnoticed' for more than a single race weekend...

[chris1234560]

That is my biggest surprise. I'm no engineer but i would of thought checks would be done after each race weekend

[olliek88]

He's not been in any sort of accident, not one with an impact anyway, that would warrant a detailed inspection like this. To strip the car right down to the chassis would take some time i imagine & the turn around times in F1 are already tight as it is, they wouldn't do that after every race, its inefficient and unnecessary. Di Resta had the same thing at the end of last season (which people conveniently look over) and the team didn't discover it for several races. Vettel had a cracked chassis in 2010 that was only discovered after Monaco, it happens.

Edited by olliek88, 14 November 2013 - 23:00.

[as65p]

I always knew it would either be this, or a magnetic glitch in the electronics of his car. Thankfully it's now all fixed and we'll surely see the real Lewis in those last two races, won't we?

[senna da silva]

I don't understand how, within a top line f1 team, this type of thing can go 'unnoticed' for more than a single race weekend...

 

This. 

[senna da silva]

I always knew it would either be this, or a magnetic glitch in the electronics of his car. Thankfully it's now all fixed and we'll surely see the real Lewis in those last two races, won't we?

 

We'll see after the results, I always expect Lewis to be ahead but close.

[SamH123]

Maybe Hamilton's chassis just got damaged in Abu Dhabi when that wishbone broke in his Q3 incident

So it didn't affect his quali performance but affected his car during the race

[senna da silva]

Maybe Hamilton's chassis just got damaged in Abu Dhabi when that wishbone broke in his Q3 incident

So it didn't affect his quali performance but affected his car during the race

 

Maybe, but we'll never know since the team don't know.

[P123]

That is my biggest surprise. I'm no engineer but i would of thought checks would be done after each race weekend

 

I thought the same, but then again there is the transit times to take into account back from Abu Dhabi and then out to the race.  It may well have been on the to do list.

 

We can only speculate how it came to be cracked....... I'll take a stab at when he ran out wide over the kerbs in the first sector in either P3 or quali (can't remember which)- the same kerb that Alonso went over in the race.

[undersquare]

Well that's great news.  It had to be the car really, with those laptime differences.  Game on for the championship places.

[Watkins74]

Maybe Hamilton's chassis just got damaged in Abu Dhabi when that wishbone broke in his Q3 incident

So it didn't affect his quali performance but affected his car during the race

 

Cool.... I love speculating. I say it got damaged in it's container coming to Austin. Severe turbulence. 

[OO7]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/111312

 

A possible cause to Hamiltons issues? Interesting they can't be sure how long the cracks were present.

I'm not sure if the change will make much difference, as I don't recall him complaining about the handling of the car, just a general lack of grip.  I could be wrong though.

[Rybo]

Could be the lack of torsional stiffness to due the crack.

[MortenF1]

Well of course. There were a few of us saying this, that there had to be a car problem being the reason for his below-par performance. You get acussed directly or indirectly of being a fanboy when you say something like that, but I don't expect anyone from that group of posters to come out and say something smart now.

[alfa1]

Same thing happned to Vettel in 2010.

After two races in which Webber dominated, it turned out that Vettels chassis had some cracks.

[boldhakka]

I always knew it would either be this, or a magnetic glitch in the electronics of his car. Thankfully it's now all fixed and we'll surely see the real Lewis in those last two races, won't we?

No, no; surely it was a show-off attempt gone wrong.

[maverick69]

Well of course. There were a few of us saying this, that there had to be a car problem being the reason for his below-par performance. You get acussed directly or indirectly of being a fanboy when you say something like that, but I don't expect anyone from that group of posters to come out and say something smart now.

 

Indeed. On full fuel he's been saying that his car is "all over the place" for a few races now.

[maverick69]

Could be the lack of torsional stiffness to due the crack.

Torsional stiffness, geometry going in and out of kilter...... all sort of issues

[undersquare]

I'm not sure if the change will make much difference, as I don't recall him complaining about the handling of the car, just a general lack of grip.  I could be wrong though.

Well in free air Lewis was 0.5 or more slower than Nico in Abu Dhabi so there had to be a car problem really.  There was a piece on Sky a couple of races ago that had iirc a Force India engineer saying a packer of istr 0.1mm was a massive change, so a cracked chassis can easily cost that kind of time surely.  Anyway we are about to see, fortunately.

 

I'm just half thinking the chassis cracked rather easily, but maybe your Chapman rule with the 4,000 km engine life applies to the chassis too.

[femi]

He's not been in any sort of accident, not one with an impact anyway, that would warrant a detailed inspection like this. To strip the car right down to the chassis would take some time i imagine & the turn around times in F1 are already tight as it is, they wouldn't do that after every race, its inefficient and unnecessary. Di Resta had the same thing at the end of last season (which people conveniently look over) and the team didn't discover it for several races. Vettel had a cracked chassis in 2010 that was only discovered after Monaco, it happens.

wont X-Ray have helped?

[OO7]

Well in free air Lewis was 0.5 or more slower than Nico in Abu Dhabi so there had to be a car problem really.  There was a piece on Sky a couple of races ago that had iirc a Force India engineer saying a packer of istr 0.1mm was a massive change, so a cracked chassis can easily cost that kind of time surely.  Anyway we are about to see, fortunately.

 

I'm just half thinking the chassis cracked rather easily, but maybe your Chapman rule with the 4,000 km engine life applies to the chassis too.

You could be right undersquare about the fuel.  I was going to comment about how the car appeared fine on his final Q3 attempt until the suspension failure, but as you mentioned fuel could have exacerbated the problem.  I haven't seen much info about the life span of an F1 monocoque, I wonder how often they are changed per season?

[bananaSpanner]

As I and others suspected, Hamilton's car was damaged.

 

Rosberg is fast but it's rare that any teamate outpaces Hamilton by such a margin, and when Lewis is so down on himself and doesn't seem to know why he was slow, car damage has been the cause quite a few times.

 

Hoping to see a good battle between them this weekend, but I think Hamilton will have it by a decent margin (in quali at least).

[undersquare]

As I and others suspected, Hamilton's car was damaged.

 

Rosberg is fast but it's rare that any teamate outpaces Hamilton by such a margin, and when Lewis is so down on himself and doesn't seem to know why he was slow, car damage has been the cause quite a few times.

 

Hoping to see a good battle between them this weekend, but I think Hamilton will have it by a decent margin (in quali at least).

Yes I think so.  My idea of a decent margin against Nico is 0.05 - 0.15, anyway I'm betting all the 'Hamilton's lost his mojo' and 'thrice woe he's ordinary after all' hysteria will quietly fade away after this weekend.

[undersquare]

You could be right undersquare about the fuel.  I was going to comment about how the car appeared fine on his final Q3 attempt until the suspension failure, but as you mentioned fuel could have exacerbated the problem.  I haven't seen much info about the life span of an F1 monocoque, I wonder how often they are changed per season?

It was Mav who raised the full fuel issue, I'm not sure myself tho I see what he means.  I can't really see how that final Abu Dhabi Q3 speed was there with a cracked tub, and in previous races like Korea it looked like it was traffic, gearing, drag, traction, the luck of the draw down to T1, and letting Grosjean down the inside.  Maybe a bad tyre too.  A poor tyre call.  Hard to unravel it all.  But I guess it could have been small cracks getting bigger, as they tend to do. 

[as65p]

... the damage was pretty significant. It may even be at a level that was affecting the handling of the car.

 

Which may also indicate that it was affecting nothing at all.

 

My guess (would be helpful if a pro could confirm or dismiss it) is that all cars develope those small structural issues (or cracks) over time of use, and surely the teams do check by whatever means that the car isn't going to break in half 2 laps down the road. So what we talk about here is tiny little things, which evidently they only found when stripping the car down out of normal service sequence.

 

So at this point in time it may have been significant - or not. Only sunday evening we'll have a few more pointers one way or the other.

[EvanRainer]

It's hard not be skeptical. Not because in this case it may not be true but it at least seems to me like there's always something wrong with Lewis' car this year and there is almost always some technical issue explanation offered after every not-so-amazing performance. I haven't seen this with any other driver this year.

 

That's my feeling at least, don't shoot me.

[Miggeex]

It's more of an safety issue than handling issue when there's a crack in the chassis. 

[maverick69]

It's hard not be skeptical. Not because in this case it may not be true but it at least seems to me like there's always something wrong with Lewis' car this year and there is almost always some technical issue explanation offered after every not-so-amazing performance. I haven't seen this with any other driver this year.

 

That's my feeling at least, don't shoot me.

So you think that they would strip down and inspect an entire chassis and give Hamilton a new one just to butter his bottom?  

[maverick69]

It's more of an safety issue than handling issue when there's a crack in the chassis. 

Of course there is a safety issue -but where a 1mm adjustment on the suspension geometry can account for several tenths of a second, then it most defiantly becomes a handling one.

[mlsnoopy]

So Hamilton had a cracked chassis. What does that mean in overall score card. Should the last few races be ignored, as the 2 cars weren't equal. 

[EvanRainer]

So you think that they would strip down and inspect an entire chassis and give Hamilton a new one just to butter his bottom?  

 

No. As I said, this is not really about this case being "fake" or anything like that. I am not saying that they are making up stuff either.

 

It's just that maybe they have been playing up these issues a bit where normally you wouldn't hear about them.

 

I don't even want to speculate, as I said it's just seems to me that there have been a lot of times these year where we heard about something being wrong on Lewis' car that was only found afterwards.

[as65p]

So you think that they would strip down and inspect an entire chassis and give Hamilton a new one just to butter his bottom?  

 

Very eloquently phrased!

 

And who knows. it might even pay off to do that. Placebo effects can be very powerful and produce real results out of nothing.

[7MGTEsup]

So Hamilton had a cracked chassis. What does that mean in overall score card. Should the last few races be ignored, as the 2 cars weren't equal. 

 

This weekend will be a good indicator if the chassis was making that much difference. If Lewis is suddenly beating Nico hands down then there might be something in it. Will be interesting to see.

 

No one knows how long it was cracked for, it could have been cracked for a few races or it could have cracked in the last stint of the last race.

 

I'm surprised that teams don't do a complete strip and inspection between races.

Edited by 7MGTEsup, 15 November 2013 - 11:21.

[Juggles]

So Hamilton had a cracked chassis. What does that mean in overall score card. Should the last few races be ignored, as the 2 cars weren't equal. 

 

They shouldn't be ignored because we don't know how much the damage cost Hamilton. This does make me quietly confident for the weekend though (actually I was quite confident even before this news). I don't think Hamilton has been driving badly, more there have been a few little things that didn't go his way which inordinately affected races. Rosberg was drawing the short straw mid-season by just missing out on Q3 in Germany, clashing with Massa in Hungary and not getting an extra lap in Spa. When these niggling things happen but the driver still finishes the race it's too easy to look at the finishing positions only. For example, I think Hamilton's Abu Dhabi race, and the suicidal melancholy in this thread afterwards, would have been completely different without the wishbone failure in Q3.

 

Hamilton has bad races sometimes, but he always bounces back. He had one bad season (half-season really) and bounced back spectacularly. He's a very elastic chappy and I think he'll do well this weekend.

[1Devil1]

A cracked chassis, why did I know something will come up like that, again these makes a new room for stupid argumentations, from he lost nothing to his car was undrivable.  I take it like it is, hope the material is right and Mercedes just have the ability to give your drivers cars that are for both the same. This endless discussions:  would could have been are tiresome.  

[OO7]

A cracked chassis, why did I know something will come up like that, again these makes a new room for stupid argumentations, from he lost nothing to his car was undrivable.  I take it like it is, hope the material is right and Mercedes just have the ability to give your drivers cars that are for both the same. This endless discussions:  would could have been are tiresome.  

Well it can't be argued that the 'cracked chassis' situation was concocted by some fanboy, but then again some may argue quite tenaciously I might add, that Mercedes is the ultimate Hamilton fanboy.

[1Devil1]

Well it can't be argued that the 'cracked chassis' situation was concocted by some fanboy, but then again some may argue quite tenaciously I might add, that Mercedes is the ultimate Hamilton fanboy.

 

No, it's a fact, why should Mercedes make something like this up, but we don't know how much the handling of the car was compromised, we had this crack chassis situation one time at RedBull with Vettel, after Webber outperformed him, is this more protecting your guy in front of the media, or telling the truth that everybody knows he, look here, there was something wrong, you should know before judging my guy!

[OO7]

No, it's a fact, why should Mercedes make something like this up, but we don't know how much the handling of the car was compromised, we had this crack chassis situation one time at RedBull with Vettel, after Webber outperformed him, is this more protecting your guy in front of the media, or telling the truth that everybody knows he, look here, there was something wrong, you should know before judging my guy!

I absolutely agree.

[Mrluke]

Didnt Mclaren make a song and dance about replacing Button's chassis last year because they though it might have been cracked (but weren't sure)?

 

From what Mercedes are saying its pretty significant but on top of that they are stating that the two cars were behaving differently and they are unsure why. This might be the answer or it might not.

[TomNokoe]

Well a cracked chassis doesn't impact decision making, which has been Lewis' downfall more than anything. He hasn't simply been dropped into traffic, he's ended up there through bad starts/mistakes. If anything it'll probably help him have a mini fresh start to attack the last two races with every confidence in his machine. Looking forward to it.

[undersquare]

Well a cracked chassis doesn't impact decision making, which has been Lewis' downfall more than anything. He hasn't simply been dropped into traffic, he's ended up there through bad starts/mistakes. If anything it'll probably help him have a mini fresh start to attack the last two races with every confidence in his machine. Looking forward to it.

The car has played its part.  Take Abu Dhabi: Mercs on the 2nd row, both Red Bulls concentrate on Lewis boxing him to the inside leaving the outside clear for Nico and Romain to get past.  I can't see any other line Lewis could have taken.  Brawn has been admitting that then the car was overwinged and undergeared for the race it found itself in, even without the chassis issue.

[olliek88]

wont X-Ray have helped?

 

Slightly interesting tedious link here but joe average can't by medical equipment (well, in California at least) like x-ray machines/ultra sound machines etc and do you know who caused this enforcement? Tom Cruise! He brought his own ultra sound machine when Katie whats her face was pregnant with their bambino and this rather upset medical professionals who, successfully, lobbied for there to be a new law banning anyone from buying such machines, its called " TheTom Cruise Law". True story.

 

Sorry is that considered off topic? 

[Gorma]

Slightly interesting tedious link here but joe average can't by medical equipment (well, in California at least) like x-ray machines/ultra sound machines etc and do you know who caused this enforcement? Tom Cruise! He brought his own ultra sound machine when Katie whats her face was pregnant with their bambino and this rather upset medical professionals who, successfully, lobbied for there to be a new law banning anyone from buying such machines, its called " TheTom Cruise Law". True story.

 

Sorry is that considered off topic? 

There is industrial x-ray and ultrasound equipment for that specific purpose. No need to by medical equipment.

[olliek88]

Clearly i was making a serious point and i definitely wasn't telling a pointless anecdote...

Edited by olliek88, 15 November 2013 - 16:47.

[Buttoneer]

 

"We knew he had had some excursions over kerbs and things, but when we actually got here and started to strip everything down, the damage was pretty significant. It may even be at a level that was affecting the handling of the car.  So we have put a new chassis on the car, and he will go into the weekend with a new chassis because we want to clear all our doubt. There were certainly some very odd things between the two cars in Abu Dhabi."

 

Certainly is interesting language.  They are 'certain' there were odd things between the cars but only that the damage they found 'may' have affected handling.  Depending upon the level of damage it could have played all sorts of havok with the setup and handling or nothing at all so I suppose it is reasonable for them to hedge their bets.  They strip the cars down after each race anyway and a team that well funded shouldn't even think twice about replacing the chassis so I don't think the swap would have been a difficult decision.

 

Fingers crossed that this brings him back into play for the last two races of the season.

[Nobody]

Hamilton's fault.

 

True story.

[K-One]

They found crack in Hamilton's car? Has he been hanging out with the mayor of Toronto?

[OO7]

They found crack in Hamilton's car? Has he been hanging out with the mayor of Toronto?

That's not what I heard.  I heard his car was on crack, which it why it was all over the place in Abu Dhabi.  Crack, 'that's one hell of a drug'.