30 replies to this topic

[SonnyViceR]

We're here to discuss about the health of the three major FIA world championships besides F1. So what do you think?

 

[Nonesuch]

I have no interest in rally, so I cannot comment on that.

 

The WTCC race I recently saw on Eurosport seemed devoid of any attending fans, and that's never a good sign. It might have had to do with it being in China, though. Hard for me to say where this series is going.

 

The WEC seems good, though it's flagship category (LMP1) could do with some more competition. I was at their race in Belgium this year, and the circuit was positively busy. Not packed like it is when F1 is in town, but much more so than when I went in 2011. It doesn't hurt that you can get tickets to a six hour race for the price of an bottle of water at an F1 event.

[X61]

I wish somebody would pick up WRC in the US.

[OvDrone]

WRC's problem is the media coverage, which is severe imo.

 

WTCC, well, for some god forsaken reason I am a fan of this series and with Loeb (!!!) and/or Kubica for some events (gooby pls) things look on the up and up. All in all, I remain quietly confident in the new '14 spec rules and the more manufacturers, the merrier.

 

WEC. I'm a fan. Add two mare 'classic-ish' races, more works and privateers for P1, better rules for the GT's and I would be absolutely delighted.

[montoyasminion]

I wish somebody would pick up WRC in the US.

Its on mavtv. Week or so late though, but not as late as it has been in the past.
http://www.mavtv.com/

[SonnyViceR]

My bits:

 

WRC Is useless. Well I mean there needs to be a world champ for rally cars which is why I cannot say 'ditch it immediately', but the current iteration is just so meh. Nobody cares about it, except maybe Finns. For a while it actually seemed as if IRC of all things was going to beat it...

 

WTCC has lost some of it's appeal, the level of participants is questionable and the race format is not for everyone, but I think it's actually not doing that horribly. It's not watched by many but there's a place for it... it just needs some guidance to make it look more professional. With Loeb and co next year it should bring up some more attention. I go with mediocre.

 

WEC is the one I cannot really give clear answer for because on one hand it's clearly gotta be awesome that we have a home for world class sportscar racing once again, and particularly that we have the top level LMP1s there - technologically the most advanced class on the planet - but on the other hand it could be so much better. With the exception of the greatest motor race in the world, Le Mans (IMO which should be stand alone race in the first place because of the auto entry issues), none of the other races are interesting or historical but just some sterile six hour no-shows held at some random Tilkedromes between long intervals. Then the GTE class is ruined by waivers and over aggressive BoP, and is also inferior to same class in regional series (ALMS/USCR) which is... ehh. There are other things as well, such as the over-catering of privateers & amateurs and FIA's strict limitations that weren't there before with ACO-only... so I have to go with mediocre for this one too, unfortunately.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 16 November 2013 - 17:41.

[DanardiF1]

WRC: is in dire need of a complete rethink on how off-road racing appeals to a broader range of fans and works on TV. People like Ken Block and others are showing how Rallying and that style of driving can be successfully marketed to huge global audiences and still the most prestigious championship for this sport limps along with no real new ideas since the closed-circuit super specials in the 90's. Cars need to look more wild, rallies need to be reformatted and new markets need to be tapped. Why there isn't at least one major rally in the USA where the sport's reputation is growing year on year is beyond me.

 

WTCC: Is suffering because of the frankly overcomplicated and expensive S2000 regs carrying on for too long. That the BTCC is a more visible series worldwide should be a wakeup call for the WTCC organisers. Same as in the WRC, the cars need to look more wild (next year's changes are a good start) and be easier to build and race. The NGTC rules are brilliant in that many small teams in the UK have managed to build cool looking and fast cars with small budgets and a bit of engineering knowhow. Get some manufacturers behind that idea (it's not happened in the BTCC mainly because it's a small market and the carmakers like having someone do their marketing for them) because of a bigger global audience and it can move forward. Also, stop racing on crap versions of great tracks... fly all the way to Suzuka just to race on a shortened version? Insanity.

 

WEC: IMO is on the cusp of something big, a return to the kind of prominence enjoyed in Group C days. Big manufacturers building exciting, advanced cars with decent drivers and circuits. My only gripe is that LMP2 has been so neutered in recent years that it is impossible for a good performance by an LMP2 team to have any impact on the overall order, as it did so thrillingly in ALMS just a few years ago. The racing is good throughout the field (except P1, but a growing entry list should help that), but I wish the two P classes were closer in speed. The series contains probably the greatest team in motorsport in Audi Team Joest and Porsche is coming back for top honours, plus Nissan, Honda and other manufacturers are interested. In GT I think some tweaks are needed to make it a more diverse class, as having the Corvettes and Vipers only turn up for Le Mans when they are such professional outfits doesn't make the rest of the championship so exciting. Aston Martin, Ferrari and Porsche have great entries, but when the worst result you can have is 6th it's not exciting enough. BoP has been frustrating in recent years as well, I can see it's merits but it's too laden with politics and underhand tactics to be a good regulation. I would like to see some more variety in the events as well, as a calendar of just 6-hour races plus Le Mans isn't varied enough for me. I'd like to see some more events, distance based ones, maybe a 12 hour (Sebring?) and maybe even a 4 hour 'Sprint' somewhere. The growing crowds fill me with optimism, and I'll be heading back to Silverstone next year expecting another great event.

[SonnyViceR]

maybe a 12 hour (Sebring?)

 

Unfortunately the track (and event) is now own by NASCAR, as is Petit Le Mans, which makes comeback impossible... unless you want to have separate weekend for some reason.

 

Calendar wise: In my dream scenario of World  Sportscar (not endurance, that says nothing) Championship you would have around 10 races with distances varying between 500km, 1000km and 8-12 hours. Le Mans would be a stand-alone race and not part of it. The races wouldn't be held on some crap Tilke asphaltrings somewhere where nobody cares about racing, but for the most part in Europe and North America which are the primary market areas.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 16 November 2013 - 18:06.

[Wingcommander]

WRC: problematic. Hyundai can make it a bit better from competition's pov, but coverage is a big, big problem. 

 

WTCC: no opinion. Havent followed for several years now.

 

WEC:mediocre. Porsche spices up the competition. Needs more competitive privateers to really feel like healthy series

[WhiteSGPlayer]

WRC: Oh dear oh dear. Where did it all go wrong? Lack of coverage, no competition, and Loeb retiring makes prospects look weak next year.

 

WTCC: No opinion, but when it's easier to find BTCC on television something is probably wrong.

 

WEC: Cosigning DanardiF1. However, the new GT rules coming in the next few years can't come quickly enough.

Edited by WhiteSGPlayer, 16 November 2013 - 19:10.

[rhukkas]

You missed one

 

FIA World Karting Championship

 

... and no it isn't particularly healthy either. Though 50 entries in any other championship would be crazy

[dweller23]

WEC is getting stronger. I don't like that they ditched Sebring in favour of Austen, but with Audi, Toyota and Porsche (and Nissan potentially) fighting it out in LMP1 it seems pretty good. Having said that, the merge of ALMS and Grand Am might spawn a very popular series.

[Spillage]

WRC - mediocre. No media coverage and the recent dominance of Loeb suggests something of a dearth of talent in the series.
WTCC - problematic. I don't like the ballast rules and it seems to get very little coverage within motorsport circles, never mind outside it.
WEB - Fairly good. Le Mans is a considerable asset which brings in lots of attention. I also think there's some talent in the driver lineup and interest from manufacturers.

[Spillage]

WRC - mediocre. No media coverage and the recent dominance of Loeb suggests something of a dearth of talent in the series.
WTCC - problematic. I don't like the ballast rules and it seems to get very little coverage within motorsport circles, never mind outside it.
WEB - Fairly good. Le Mans is a considerable asset which brings in lots of attention. I also think there's some talent in the driver lineup and interest from manufacturers.

[SonnyViceR]

 Though 50 entries in any other championship would be crazy

 

The predecessor of WEC, the ILMC (which IMO was superior to current) had 50+ entries for almost every round as it was wise enough to combine grids with regional series. Something that the stubborness of the FIA - I assume - has prevented

 

Btw there are many smaller championships with 50+ cars on the track at the same time.

 

 

WTCC: No opinion, but when it's easier to find BTCC on television something is probably wrong.

 

Umm it's live on Eurosport throughout the continent, what's so difficult about that? BTCC on the other hand is hard to access outside UK (understably)
 

[Disgrace]

The WTCC lost my interest this year. The cars and drivers are completely stale, and the whole championship has become the Yvan Muller roadshow. A number of circuits are also boring.

 

I think new regulations are in place next year so hopefully Honda and Lada will prove to be more competitive.

 

Loeb vs. Muller is an intriguing prospect, so I will tune back in for the start of the season anyway.

Edited by Disgrace, 16 November 2013 - 19:30.

[DanardiF1]

The predecessor of WEC, the ILMC (which IMO was superior to current) had 50+ entries for almost every round as it was wise enough to combine grids with regional series. Something that the stubborness of the FIA - I assume - has prevented

 

Btw there are many smaller championships with 50+ cars on the track at the same time.

 

 

Umm it's live on Eurosport throughout the continent, what's so difficult about that? BTCC on the other hand is hard to access outside UK (understably)
 

 

I can kind of see the FIA's point in this, as they are trying to create a strong brand in which cars, teams and drivers are individually recognisable, but in a series that needs as many entrants as possible having regional entries is a must for me.

 

Also wanted to agree with your previous point that there should be a larger mix of race distances and a larger more varied calendar. Going back to places like Imola, Monza, maybe places like the Red Bull Ring, would be good IMO.

[WhiteSGPlayer]

Umm it's live on Eurosport throughout the continent, what's so difficult about that? BTCC on the other hand is hard to access outside UK (understably)
 

 

Well there ya go, no Eurosport

 

If only the Blancpain Endurance Series was FIA owned...

[DampMongoose]

WRC cars are dull compared to the more extreme cars of the past, tv seems lacking, having to go look for it on tv is an issue that needs addressing in this day and age.

WTC cars are boring, even the interviews I've read from the drivers in Motorsport suggest the cars are lacking compared to proper touring cars of the past...like the wrc cars they need a bit of style injected rather than looking showroom spec.

WEC will hopefully develop with the new works entants, but the BOP gt's are a crap way to go racing... They should also be including every classic race they can, Sebring, le mans, daytona, petit, nurburgring... The formats good with some petrol/diesel tweaking but the events are not generally.

Edited by DampMongoose, 16 November 2013 - 19:42.

[Vepe1995]

WRC is currently boring, mainly because there has been a frechman named Sebastian dominating the series for a decade. And the current TV product is rubbish. Personally I think what should be done is instead of live-tv, if you want live, use the internet and leave a at least 1-hour recap of the day's events for the tv.

 

WTCC is currently boring, mainly because of the lack of manufacturer competition. What do they have now? Honda? Hopfully it'll get better next year.

 

WEC's problem is the 'lack' of entries. Well, 30 cars is a lot, but it should be around 50. Also I find the idea of having all but one race 6 hours long very annoying. There's no variety, and in my opinion Le Mans 24h shouldn't be a part of any championship. I would personally prefer if WEC would become a bit more like the ILMC.

[JHSingo]

WRC - I don't think it is entirely a lame duck with Volkswagen having entered this year and Hyundai next. But it has been incredibly poorly managed. It is incredible what a hash the FIA (and those involved in the WRC) have made of things, and it seems the championship makes a step forward, and two steps back. It could be so much better, but I don't think we'll ever see the interest in the WRC that we did with Group B. They do need to bring back faster, more spectacular cars for it to become healthy again. The s2000 cars don't really do anything for me, and I think that rallycross (if it hasn't already) will soon be the more popular championship. It has FIA Championship status for next year, star drivers in Solberg etc, spectacular (if not the most diverse in terms of makes and models of cars present) cars, great promotion, and phenomenal racing. In short, everything the WRC doesn't have, or is severely lacking in. Genuinely see rallycross taking off in a big way again. Voted problematic.

 

WTCC - I'm very optimistic for 2014 and beyond. The newer, much faster, more aggressive looking cars will give the championship a new birth.

 

 

The s2000 cars are rather long in the tooth these days, and it has been showing, ever since BMW and SEAT withdrew as manufacturers. However, with the new cars, with Honda and Citroen, and whoever else, I think things will get better in time. The arrival of one Sebastien Loeb should hopefully give the championship a bigger profile, and bring more punters through the gates too. It certainly has a long way to go to match the days of 2007-2008 in terms of massive grids, competitiveness, and manufacturer support, and next year will be challenging, but it is a positive step forward on which to build on. Voted fairly good.

 

WEC - Had a difficult birth, and these last couple of years have been a struggle, but I think things will get progressively better from now on. Porsche returning to LMP1 is a great story, and thanks to Mark Webber, it has perhaps got a lot more media attention than it otherwise might have done. Should be a cracking battle between Audi and Porsche next year, and hopefully Toyota finally step up to the plate too. Really, we just need a few more P1 privateers and the gap between manufacturers and privateers in performance being smaller and things will be great. Hopefully 2014 is a positive step forwards in terms of that, and there is enough manufacturer interest combined in all the classes to keep things spicy, and hopefully more to come. It would be fantastic if Ferrari committed to P1 to give the series a lot more media attention, and the only thing I'd change would be to have a great variety of race distance. So some 6 hour races, maybe a 10 hour event, maybe a 12, then you'd have 24 hours of Le Mans obviously, and possibly have a double header weekend with two three hour races, one on the Saturday, one on the Sunday. Voted fairly good again.

Edited by JHSingo, 17 November 2013 - 00:00.

[ClubmanGT]

WRC: Boring to watch on TV, impossible to watch live due to shorter rallies and fewer stages that aren't repeated over and over again. Give us 12 rounds of proper 4 day rallying with a decent number of stages per day. 

 

WTCC: Lol WTCC. It sucks. The V8 Supercars are the more credible tin top series. 

 

WEC: Needs wider coverage, harder to catch races in this part of the world, doesn't visit down south too often - none of these 'World Championhips' do these days bar Rally Australia. 

[SonnyViceR]

Judging by the current votes on the poll, WTCC seems to be the one getting most diverse opinions (mostly diverting to negative as with WRC though) which is sort of interesting.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 17 November 2013 - 10:58.

[ArnageWRC]

WRC: could and should be so much better. Has been criminally mismanaged over the last 10+ years. Trying to make it 'F1 on Gravel' was absurd. There wasn't a great deal wrong, just a few tweaks needed - instead they butchered it, almost into oblivion. There are signs of a recovery; but must stop trying to 'spice it up' with gimmicks. Leave it as a test of speed AND endurance.
Cars are still the biggest cost, and I'm not sure about the future; I'd make R5 the top class, and bring in a RWD class. Sport is all about entertainment - RWD would provide this.

WTCC: can't see the point in it. There are so many series with different 'Touring cars' - how do you choose which is a World Touring car? However, it should be RWD, lots of noise and lots of power - and on proper circuits. Travelling across the world for 2x12-15 lap races is a joke.

WEC: needs to be renamed the WSC. Have a variety of race distances. 500km, 6hrs, 10hrs, 12hrs and 24hrs. All a bit too formulaic, and mostly on Tilkedroms. Not good. Not having either if Sebring or Petit LeMans is unfortunate. Bahrain and China add no value, but are important for 'selling cars'. I would like to see the season start earlier, and include rounds in Germany and/ or Italy.
Porsche v Toyota v Audi promises good things, maybe Nissan and/ or Honda entering would be nice. I enjoy the GTE class, but tire of the BoP. Build a car to regs and leave it.

Edited by ArnageWRC, 17 November 2013 - 12:41.

[SonnyViceR]

WEC: needs to be renamed the WSC. Have a variety of race distances. 500km, 6hrs, 10hrs, 12hrs and 24hrs. All a bit too formulaic, and mostly on Tilkedroms. Not good. Not having either if Sebring or Petit LeMans is unfortunate. Bahrain and China add no value, but are important for 'selling cars'. I would like to see the season start earlier, and include rounds in Germany and/ or Italy.
Porsche v Toyota v Audi promises good things, maybe Nissan and/ or Honda entering would be nice. I enjoy the GTE class, but tire of the BoP. Build a car to regs and leave it.

 

THIS, so much.

 

The ridiculous plus two month gap between LM and the next race in the summer is also one of the most absurd things ever, and NO I do not buy the cheap logistics excuse ACO is attempting to give us for that.

[redreni]

WRC has managed to lose a hell of a lot of its audience over the last 10 or 15 years.

WEC is doing well, but not as well as it would do if it merged with ELMS. Never understood why it was created as an extra series rather than as a replacement for ELMS. It should have more European races, and more races generally. The P1 entrants should have to commit to the whole season as a condition of entry to Le Mans. Now that Porsche and Mazda are entering the main game, it should be possible to have such a rule and to be able to enforce it with the credible threat of not granting an entry to Le Mans if a manufacturer undermines the WEC by not turning up to all the races. It‘s crazy that the manufacturers spend such a huge amount on designing and building their P1 prototypes and then, in some cases, only run them competitively on a handful of occasions away from Le Mans.

WTCC has boring, uninspiring machinery that looks exactly like it did 10 years ago.

Having said all that, I think F1 has worse problems than either WEC or WTCC.

[SonnyViceR]

WTCC has lost some of it's appeal, the level of participants is questionable and the race format is not for everyone

 

Hmm yes I urge everyone to watch today's second race at Macau, the level of driving was even more bizarre than at Salzburgring earlier this year. DEAR GOD.

[SonnyViceR]

WEC is doing well, but not as well as it would do if it merged with ELMS. Never understood why it was created as an extra series rather than as a replacement for ELMS. It should have more European races, and more races generally. The P1 entrants should have to commit to the whole season as a condition of entry to Le Mans. Now that Porsche and Mazda are entering the main game, it should be possible to have such a rule and to be able to enforce it with the credible threat of not granting an entry to Le Mans if a manufacturer undermines the WEC by not turning up to all the races. It‘s crazy that the manufacturers spend such a huge amount on designing and building their P1 prototypes and then, in some cases, only run them competitively on a handful of occasions away from Le Mans.

 

Mazda is not entering the main game, just LMP2 again (sort of).

 

Agree about the ELMS part but not on the P1 full season thingy. Le Mans is obviously millions of times more important than the championship and it makes sense for the teams to put most of their effort into that. Forcing all the entries to do the full season would make the grid smaller at Le Mans (certainly in terms of third cars, and smaller teams). Technically speaking there is already a requirement to do the entire season of WEC if you're a P1 entrant as there is no other place left to run your car - A BIG MISTAKE FROM THE ACO BY THE WAY - so they sort of expect you to join the championship in order to gain the entry. But in reality there is no real punishment left if team drops from the series after Le Mans, as proven by the likes of Strakka, OAK and Pescarolo in the last couple of years. Also the amount of LMP1 entrants has been so low in the recent years that the ACO is desperate to give entries for P1 teams whatever the cause

 

If you drop Le Mans outside of the championship and make it a stand-alone race once again (as it actually used to be many times during the old WSC era too) the problem is fixed. As is the auto entry fiasco granting

Edited by SonnyViceR, 17 November 2013 - 13:31.

[SenorSjon]

WRC: the eco-maffia forbids loud and fast cars. Since the crisis, no John Doe can afford these cars anymore, so they are losing relevance. You could (in a way) buy a WRC like car in the store, but you hardly can't today or at a ridiculous price point. You had the Celica GT-Four, Impreza, Lancer, etc. But who knows the current day rally monsters? Is there a beefed up C4 in the stores to buy? I liked rallying more in the time when you could buy the 555 Impreza for instance.

 

WTCC: Some sort of untidy mob racing on the most abstract of tracks. I think they suffer from stupid weight rules, Chevy dominance and the fact they only have 2 short sprint races. Most people at home run longer stints in GT5 then they do in the actual race. You have no chance whatsoever to recover from a bad start or Q.

 

WEC: I like this class a lot due to technical development and actually competing cars that look different from each other (unlike F1). But it needs more LMP1 and less Hybrid/balancing. I strongly dislike the balancing though. It punishes the achievers and if you luck into a good setup or your car is especially suited to a certain track, you suffer the next race.

 

But most of all, for me those classes lack consistency in their calendar. WTCC sometimes has month long gaps, dito for the other classes. Make it easy to follow people!

Every even week F1

Every odd week WTCC

Every last sunday of the month WEC

Something like that. I'm always looking online to find out the next race, see that is 6 weeks away and then I forget about it and miss it.

[SonnyViceR]

But most of all, for me those classes lack consistency in their calendar. WTCC sometimes has month long gaps, dito for the other classes. Make it easy to follow people!

Every even week F1

Every odd week WTCC

Every last sunday of the month WEC

Something like that. I'm always looking online to find out the next race, see that is 6 weeks away and then I forget about it and miss it.

 

While that idea has sort of nice intentions behind it, in reality it's impossible to organize. First off, you don't have nearly as many WTCC weekends as you do have F1s (and it's even less for WEC) so that kind of system couldn't take off, secondly you cannot book your races for whatever weekend you wish as you need to take into consideration the needs of the circuits and locals itself, but more importantly the non-F1 FIA World Championships - and most of teams running in those series - do not have such massive budgets. Logistics especially would be a massive issue, and even such things as getting your car repaired for the next weekend in time

 

Many championships try to avoid clashing with F1, but currently the ONLY weekend that F1 itself actually avoids by law is the Le Mans weekend. Prior ACO getting married with FIA even that didn't exist.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 23 November 2013 - 13:11.

[SonnyViceR]

Meant to put this here earlier:

 

Speaking of the mostly unspiring Tilkedrome-filled WEC calendar, the ACO is apparently not entirely happy with the way the joint-up round with the ALMS at CotA happened this year. The WEC race draw a miserable crowd of 8000 people while the ALMS got considerably higher amounts (though still extremely low compared to their other events) on Saturday. Now I'm not sure if the ACO people are somehow blaming the weekend schedule, IMSA guys or if they cannot understand why they as the so-called "weekend headliner" couldn't just do better... which would be idiotic considering that there is ZERO WEC TV coverage in States, apart from some random highlights that are aired months late. Also as many are aware, US fans are more keen to see domestic series.

 

But one thing is for sure: they don't appear to be happy with the circuit management. The same with IMSA. Now Road America was allegedlu considered to be the alternative choice for championship's US round before the Tilkedrome deal come up, so I hope there's a chance that if it all goes down the drain with CotA negotiations for next year or 2015, they would just dump the uselessly boring CotA and head to glorious Elkhart Lake. Then you would at least have one mouth watering regular event on your calendar besides Le Mans.

 

CotA has lost most of their major championships that visited them in 2013 for next year, I hope they lose sportscars too.