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Maldonado blames on Williams for his quali while Bottas hits Q3


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#101 Eff One 2002

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 00:28

Things we know: nothing.

 

Things we'll pretend we know because it's fun to hate Maldonado: everything.

Heh. so true...



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#102 PoleMan

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 00:32

Alternatively, was there any evidence?

Now that is a fair point. I don't know what if anything was ultimately found, and even Alonso doesn't say it was definitely nefarious...just that his pressures were abnormally higher. The FIA felt it was enough to take the action they did.

 

Let's not make 2007 the issue. AGAIN, my point was/is, issues with tyre pressures within a team (Maldonado/Williams) where there is a well-publicized falling out is nothing new.



#103 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 00:36

I'm not looking to sidetrack this discussion, but are the quotes not Alonso's? He says, flatly, that the tyre pressures were abnormally high. Are you accusing him of lying? What evidence do you have? In response to Alonso's observation (and a few other odd occurences), the FIA placed monitors inside the McLaren garage to ensure fairness to all parties. Did a Spanish newspaper make up those things, or are they simply a matter of historical record? SHEESH!

 

Not wanting to get into 2007 season much, but if I read what was said and done, Alonso said he thought the tyre pressure was higher than usual -- or maybe something else. That isn't a proof, nor was he saying other than "he thought" not "he knew" -- a slight difference, n'est-ce pas? Now, we can let aside what Spanish newspapers were saying, as they would have clear bias in the matter. They did not prove anything, whatsoever. That is the historical record on the matter.

 

FIA never accused of McLaren actually sabotaging Alonso.

 

That story turned out to be a non-story.



#104 P123

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 00:37

I'm not looking to sidetrack this discussion, but are the quotes not Alonso's? He says, flatly, that the tyre pressures were abnormally high. Are you accusing him of lying? What evidence do you have? In response to Alonso's observation (and a few other odd occurences), the FIA placed monitors inside the McLaren garage to ensure fairness to all parties. Did a Spanish newspaper make up those things, or are they simply a matter of historical record? SHEESH!

 

Alonso said a lot of stuff.  Usually one version for the Spanish press and another for the British press.  Monitors?  What did they find then?  Nothing.  Why were they there?  I'll give you a clue- not because of any genuine concern for fairness, otherwise they'd have been in a lot of garages over the years......

 

No, Maldonado having a whine is not corroboration of Alonso being sabotaged in 2007 nor does the accusation that it may have happened in '07 give any weight to Maldonado's claims this weekend.


Edited by P123, 17 November 2013 - 00:44.


#105 RosannaG

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 00:51

Back to 2007...

 

It all became a mess because the president of the Real Federación Española de Automovilismo, Carlos Gracia, got involved, he was even invited by Ron Dennis to attend the Brasilian GP so he could witness that nothing was going on... That was really embarrassing  :blush:

 

Oh, and I would like to mention that this newspaper, La Nueva España, is from Oviedo (Alonso's hometome)   ;)



#106 Slartibartfast

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 00:58

Things we know: nothing.

Oh good, that puts me on the same level of knowledge as Pastor Maldonado, a Formula One driver. No one ever argue with me again, I have the same knowledge as an F1 driver!

 

Unless he apologises for the comments, I wonder if Williams would drop him for Brazil. Would they?

If Patrick Head was still there, Maldonado wouldn't need to worry about being dropped for the last race, he'd still be in hospital.

 

I don't think Williams sabotaged his car, but I think it's pretty reasonable to be suspicious of your team if they clearly don't want you back next year, and all of a sudden you're magically 2 seconds behind a teammate who you've been consistently ahead of all year. Sauber sent Hulkenberg out in Q1 with a brake change and didn't tell him, so it's not unreasonable to think Williams might've (with good intentions) messed with his setup and he wasn't ready for it. Wait a minute, isn't this the same forum that's been claiming for years that Mark Webber gets all the bullshit parts and Red Bull sabotage him to make their golden boy look good?

 

Where is this arrogance? Because the usual party of shit-piling on the unpopular drivers on this forum is humble and reasonable, right? Yeah, Maldonado's attitude sucks. So does almost the entire team's performance and no one would give two shits if it wasn't Williams with all their history and a big British flag next to their name. I notice Frank didn't have much to say about Pastor's attitude when he was handing over a cheque to keep his entire team afloat. I didn't see Claire complaining when Maldonado put that mediocre at best car on the front row at Spain and then gave Williams their first win a decade. No one had anything bad to say about him then. Maybe I've got the wrong standings, but mine say Pastor Maldonado 1 point, Valtteri Bottas 0 points. Does that mean that he can be a prick? No. Does it mean he can be unprofessional? No. But that team has a lot to be thankful to him for in the past couple seasons, not the least of which might be their entire continued existence, and the fact he brought some genuine, deserved glory to that team when Mark Webber, Antonio Pizzonia, Nick Heidfeld, Marc Gene, Nico Rosberg, Alexander Wurz, Kazuki Nakajima, Nico Hulkenberg, Rubens Barrichello and Bruno Senna didn't.

 

I don't want to come off like I love the guy or something, Bottas is probably a better bet for them moving forward and Williams would know a hell of a lot more about that than I would. I just get tired of Maldonado/Grosjean/etc. being shit on around here when the same people bitching give other drivers a free pass. Where are the threads about Perez being an entitled little twat? Why isn't there a thread for Button complaining about the car on live TV literally every single race this season? Where are the threads about Raikkonen bitching at his team on the radio every chance he gets? A little consistency would be nice. The history of this sport was written primarily by rich kids, prima donnas and drivers who blamed everyone but themselves. It's fair to say Maldonado's attitude is shit, because it is. But it's not fair to make out like it's only him when he's a drop in the ocean.

1. In your first paragraph, you equate sabotage with failing to tell a driver about a change. There is a big difference. No sensible driver would confuse the two.

2. In your second paragraph, you equate attitude with performance. While the latter may bring the money, some people think the former more important. As for Claire Williams complaining; I didn't see her complaining today either, but I did see Maldonado complaining, which he didn't do when Williams gave him a race-winning car.

3. If you want to find a thread criticising the drivers you mentioned, you only need to look - they exist. Yet Perez, Button and Raikkonen have not accused their team of sabotaging their cars, so one might conclude that they are more hard done by then Maldonado.

 

I'm not looking to sidetrack this discussion, but are the quotes not Alonso's? He says, flatly, that the tyre pressures were abnormally high. Are you accusing him of lying? What evidence do you have? In response to Alonso's observation (and a few other odd occurences), the FIA placed monitors inside the McLaren garage to ensure fairness to all parties. Did a Spanish newspaper make up those things, or are they simply a matter of historical record? SHEESH!

Did the FIA place monitors inside Ferrari's garage to ensure fairness to all parties after Massa's gearbox seal was deliberately broken by the team? Did the Spanish media make a fuss? Does that tell you something about the politics of F1? SHEESH!(sic)



#107 PoleMan

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 00:59

Back to 2007...

 

It all became a mess because the president of the Real Federación Española de Automovilismo, Carlos Gracia, got involved, he was even invited by Ron Dennis to attend the Brasilian GP so he could witness that nothing was going on... That was really embarrassing  :blush:

 

Oh, and I would like to mention that this newspaper, La Nueva España, is from Oviedo (Alonso's hometome)   ;)

Okay, ok. No more 2007. I apologize for bringing up that tyre-gate, but Ive explained my reasons for doing so. I should have been more clear and stated there were ALLEGATIONS of pressure tampering, not actual proof. The matter was never "settled" or proven a "non-story," but that is not the subject of this discussion.

 

Maldonado will likely not be able to prove anything deliberate was done to his car, but being 1.5 seconds slower than his teammate is an anomaly without precedent against Bottas. The only thing we might be able to PROVE is that when racing marriages go wrong, lots of allegations get made about the other side. Good luck divining which is the gospel truth.


Edited by PoleMan, 17 November 2013 - 01:01.


#108 RosannaG

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:03

Okay, ok. No more 2007. I apologize for bringing up that tyre-gate, but Ive explained my reasons for doing so. I should have been more clear and stated there were ALLEGATIONS of pressure tampering, not actual proof. The matter was never "settled" or proven a "non-story," but that is not the subject of this discussion.

 

Maldonado will likely not be able to prove anything deliberate was done to his car, but being 1.5 seconds slower than his teammate is an anomaly without precedent against Bottas. The only thing we might be able to PROVE is that when racing marriages go wrong, lots of allegations get made about the other side. Good luck divining which is the gospel truth.

 

Yeah, good idea, we better forget 2007   ;)



#109 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:05

Okay, ok. No more 2007. I apologize for bringing up that tyre-gate, but Ive explained my reasons for doing so. I should have been more clear and stated there were ALLEGATIONS of pressure tampering, not actual proof. The matter was never "settled" or proven a "non-story," but that is not the subject of this discussion.

 

Maldonado will likely not be able to prove anything deliberate was done to his car, but being 1.5 seconds slower than his teammate is an anomaly without precedent against Bottas. The only thing we might be able to PROVE is that when racing marriages go wrong, lots of allegations get made about the other side. Good luck divining which is the gospel truth.

 

Uh, I do not really want to get into an argument with you, but what has team Williams said to Pastor that is even remotely to be seen as negative?



#110 PoleMan

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:06

SHEESH!(sic) (sic)

 

Sic is generally placed inside square brackets "[ ]", or in parentheses "( )", and traditionally in italics, as is customary when printing a foreign word.



#111 Mauseri

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:12

Terrible attitude. I respect Maldonado as a driver and until now I haven't found him annoying as a person but his interview stinks of a bad attitude. 

 

He probably did have some issues but to jump to blaming your team and saying you don't care about the rest of the season is unprofessional. Why would other team want to hire him if he will be demotivated to perform in the case he has to leave the team? Really hope Hulk gets that Lotus seat now! 

Maldonado may be fast driver and for sure he will bounce back tomorrow, but it's become apparent he is not the sort of driver who can lead a team. Too foolish, irresponsible and inconsistent. Wonder if Williams problems this year might have something to do with that. Massa should be able to help the team more and show something other than suicidal moves for Bottas to learn from.



#112 Afterburner

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:13

The radio transmission from Friday rings in my head:

"Pastor, tell us how you feel about the car."
"Everything is wrong."

#113 PoleMan

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:20

Uh, I do not really want to get into an argument with you, but what has team Williams said to Pastor that is even remotely to be seen as negative?

I'm not arguing with you. There have been a few articles written about "sources" at Williams critical of Pastor's racecraft and thinking ability (seem to recall it was specifically about him following too closely and using up his tyre life). Sorry, I can't find them now, but they exist...and recently.

 

I know many will go, "Well, DUH?!!!," but viewing it from Pastor's POV, Williams personnel leaking stories that put him in a negative light could fairly be viewed as an attack.


Edited by PoleMan, 17 November 2013 - 01:22.


#114 Slartibartfast

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:30



 



SHEESH!(sic) (sic)

 

Sic is generally placed inside square brackets "[ ]", or in parentheses "( )", and traditionally in italics, as is customary when printing a foreign word.

 

It is also customary to attribute a source when quoting from it.

 

 

Sic is generally placed inside square brackets "[ ]", or in parentheses "( )", and traditionally in italics, as is customary when printing a foreign word.

- Wikipedia



#115 PoleMan

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:34

It is also customary to attribute a source when quoting from it.

 

 

- Wikipedia

True. Multiple sources providing that information, but thanks for that.

 

I suspect you'll have a few other opportunities to use (sic) on this board and the entire world wide web, and I look forward to your consistent grammar-policing all of it...starting with each quoted reference in your own posts.


Edited by PoleMan, 17 November 2013 - 01:53.


#116 Nitropower

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 02:12

Where did he say they sabotaged his car? He said you'd need to ask the team and the guy setting up the car, which most likely is the answer to this extremely poor performance. It's obvious Maldonado is not 1,5 secs slower than Bottas. And it's obvious it wouldn't be the first time a team uses higher tire pressures or fuel loads to favour one of the drivers. So yeah Maldonado will be whatever you want but he said something more than feasible. People have no idea why he was so much slower but they know how to quickly jump onto the flaming bandwagon.


Edited by Nitropower, 17 November 2013 - 02:13.


#117 Slartibartfast

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 02:28

True. Multiple sources providing that information, but thanks for that.
 
I suspect you'll have a few other opportunities to use (sic) on this board and the entire world wide web, and I look forward to your consistent grammar-policing all of it...starting with each quoted reference in your own posts.

Grammar has nothing to do with it. I look forward to you honestly attributing sources rather than passing off others' works as your own, Grasshopper*.



*cf. Kung Fu.

#118 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 02:38

I'm not arguing with you. There have been a few articles written about "sources" at Williams critical of Pastor's racecraft and thinking ability (seem to recall it was specifically about him following too closely and using up his tyre life). Sorry, I can't find them now, but they exist...and recently.

 

I know many will go, "Well, DUH?!!!," but viewing it from Pastor's POV, Williams personnel leaking stories that put him in a negative light could fairly be viewed as an attack.

 

 

Hah -- is that really criticism or merely stating the (bleeding) obvious? -- Pastor has had more than his fair share of inexplicable incidents, that one could call resulting from lack of race-craft -- and that is to put it politely. As to his thinking capabilities -- well, the man has spoken often enough for anyone to be able to conclude that he is most certainly not the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

I digress.

 

Edit: grammatical let-down


Edited by Pothead4Philosopher, 17 November 2013 - 03:09.


#119 Tsarwash

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 02:50

Pastor. Oh Pastor. I've never liked your driving and attitude. 

 

But this is a new low. Attacking Williams and accusing them of screwing your car because the rookie finally whooped your arse. I've called for your removal from this sport that I follow in the past, but this is a whole new level of teen behaviour. You have finally extricated yourself from the team that gave you your entrance and opportunity into this most exclusive of sports, and obviously have scant motivation to score points for the team any more. When your younger and greatly more motivated teammate beats you, fair and square across the weekend so far, you pull the level of discussion down to the absolute lowest level possible. You accuse your employers (who have stood through almost three seasons of your erratic performances) of risking their reputation (built over thirty five years) to make you look mediocre for one paltry qualifying session in just one race, rather than accept that your teammate has as much potential talent as yourself, and this weekend has a more positive attitude in the team than you have. Pathetic.

 

I wish that I were in the same room as you, presently, that I could vocally express my dismay. 



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#120 f1RacingForever

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 02:52

Call me crazy but i believe Maldonado. You can claim i have zero evidence, which is true but it doesn't change my view. People are allowed to have opinions without laying out evidence as if they were in a court of law. Amazing isn't it? :lol:



#121 travbrad

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 02:54

Maldonado has more point than Bottas. It´s the only thing that matters in the end. So unless Valtteri can show his racecraft tomorrow and/or in Brazil, the statistics that we remember will be Pastor 1 - Valtteri 0

 

Nope what I will remember is Williams built a shockingly bad car and neither driver was able to accomplish much with it.



#122 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 03:00

Call me crazy but i believe Maldonado. You can claim i have zero evidence, which is true but it doesn't change my view. People are allowed to have opinions without laying out evidence as if they were in a court of law. Amazing isn't it? :lol:

 

True indeed, but don't we all know, that opining based on faith, devoid of facts can be equated with plain cacophony?

 

Making noise for the sake of noise is something my kids are excellent in, but sometimes one has to call a little order in the house.

 

One can apply the same principle to forum members faith-based initiatives/opinions. There, done. You're welcome.

 

Edit: forgot to highlight the part I was answering to


Edited by Pothead4Philosopher, 17 November 2013 - 03:03.


#123 Tsarwash

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 03:02

Call me crazy but i believe Maldonado. You can claim i have zero evidence, which is true but it doesn't change my view. People are allowed to have opinions without laying out evidence as if they were in a court of law. Amazing isn't it? :lol:

Why do you believe something without any evidence  ?



#124 f1RacingForever

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 03:07

Why do you believe something without any evidence  ?

Because there is a thing called intuition and i choose to use it. There is no evidence man landed on the moon in 1969 yet many choose to believe it.



#125 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 03:37

Because there is a thing called intuition and i choose to use it. There is no evidence man landed on the moon in 1969 yet many choose to believe it.

 

OMFG, are you serious?

 

Never mind if the actual landing took place or not -- what is beyond dispute is that a lot of very smart folks developed technologies in the '60's to achieve the very goal. They, first, shot monkeys and dogs and what not into Earth's orbit, then men followed. Then came the moon missions, space probes, Mars rovers and space station and a whole bunch of other garbage that we keep on shooting up into the space.

 

Now, whether the US government faked the landing in 1969 or not (for whatever political/military reasons then) is irrelevant to faith or believing it. We can land on the moon if we so choose -- or do you doubt that as well? -- In other words what might have been a hoax is quite achievable thing to do nowadays. All thanks to Cold War -- well, more or less. (Who said nothing good comes from wars? - end sarcasm-)

 

If you want conspiracy tales to ponder on -- I would recommend looking into 9/11 official account and how that seems to collide with facts.



#126 Mauseri

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 03:44

Where did he say they sabotaged his car? He said you'd need to ask the team and the guy setting up the car, which most likely is the answer to this extremely poor performance. It's obvious Maldonado is not 1,5 secs slower than Bottas.

Except if Maldo went off track or outbraked himself every lap. I think I saw a couple of times in live feed?

 

Are there split times from all laps to prove he had zero speed?


Edited by Mauseri, 17 November 2013 - 03:45.


#127 f1RacingForever

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:02

OMFG, are you serious?

 

Never mind if the actual landing took place or not -- what is beyond dispute is that a lot of very smart folks developed technologies in the '60's to achieve the very goal. They, first, shot monkeys and dogs and what not into Earth's orbit, then men followed. Then came the moon missions, space probes, Mars rovers and space station and a whole bunch of other garbage that we keep on shooting up into the space.

 

Now, whether the US government faked the landing in 1969 or not (for whatever political/military reasons then) is irrelevant to faith or believing it. We can land on the moon if we so choose -- or do you doubt that as well? -- In other words what might have been a hoax is quite achievable thing to do nowadays. All thanks to Cold War -- well, more or less. (Who said nothing good comes from wars? - end sarcasm-)

 

If you want conspiracy tales to ponder on -- I would recommend looking into 9/11 official account and how that seems to collide with facts.

Yeah i am serious. Seems lots of people have this idea that teams are fair and impartial and everything is sunshine and rainbows. I find that very naive. There are many examples of teams clearly favoring one driver over another and i wouldn't put it past a team to take it one step further if it means getting what they want. These bosses are ruthless dictators if you can get past the PR bulls@#t. If you want to believe things like China 2007 are pure coincidence then go right ahead. My view still hasn't changed and at least i can state it without having to belittle others just because i don't agree.



#128 l8apex

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:11

Maldonado went out and did something the Pirelli tires didn't like and got caught out in a bad way.

 

You just have to look at Rosberg and Massa... potentially even Button to see others that struggled similarly.

 

Maldonado is stupid to criticize the team for his performance.

 

Bottas is a nice guy and I am glad to see him perform well this weekend.  I don't think he was kidding when he says he unperformed in Q3.

 

PS.  I still hate Pirelli and hope they either build a decent tire or quit the sport sometime soon.


Edited by l8apex, 17 November 2013 - 04:12.


#129 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:21

Yeah i am serious. Seems lots of people have this idea that teams are fair and impartial and everything is sunshine and rainbows. I find that very naive. There are many examples of teams clearly favoring one driver over another and i wouldn't put it past a team to take it one step further if it means getting what they want. These bosses are ruthless dictators if you can get past the PR bulls@#t. If you want to believe things like China 2007 are pure coincidence then go right ahead. My view still hasn't changed and at least i can state it without having to belittle others just because i don't agree.

 

 

First of all, I did not mean to belittle you -- just a little tongue-in-cheek poking -- as some of the things you said were simply funny and a little shaky in reasoning. I apologize, if I offended you.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that teams can -- and have -- preferences qua drivers. Yet, the team is the 'boss', so to speak. F1 is a team sport, even if many fans are rooting for the drivers more than teams. That is the reality, but teams do not need to sabotage one driver to accomplish what they want -- simply telling the driver will suffice -- or sack 'em. Hence I tend to keep a relatively simple approach with these sort of issues. Williams is a dog of a car this year (again), the team can hardly make it any worse than it has been, for crying out loud. Sabotage the car even a tad and it will fail the 107% mark.

 

Not sure what you are referring to re: China 2007? -- That McLaren ordered Lewis to beach the car into the gravel pit -- or....?

 

Edit: typos


Edited by Pothead4Philosopher, 17 November 2013 - 04:32.


#130 Hyak

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:38

Hard to be surprised really. Has all the class of a dictator-backed playboy.

 

Maduro is no dictator. He is a bus driver. Maldonado will find a home.



#131 f1RacingForever

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:11

First of all, I did not mean to belittle you -- just a little tongue-in-cheek poking -- as some of the things you said were simply funny and a little shaky in reasoning. I apologize, if I offended you.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that teams can -- and have -- preferences qua drivers. Yet, the team is the 'boss', so to speak. F1 is a team sport, even if many fans are rooting for the drivers more than teams. That is the reality, but teams do not need to sabotage one driver to accomplish what they want -- simply telling the driver will suffice -- or sack 'em. Hence I tend to keep a relatively simple approach with these sort of issues. Williams is a dog of a car this year (again), the team can hardly make it any worse than it has been, for crying out loud. Sabotage the car even a tad and it will fail the 107% mark.

 

Not sure what you are referring to re: China 2007? -- That McLaren ordered Lewis to beach the car into the gravel pit -- or....?

 

Edit: typos

So let me ask you. Do you believe that in the history of F1, sabotage has ever taken place?? Has a team ever used unjust intentions to unfairly influence another driver? Or are we to believe all is well and just? Just to clarify You claim "simply telling driver's will suffice" As i recall, it didn't suffice on numerous occasions in 2007. I remember Hamilton ignoring the team i Q which led to the pit lane incident with Alonso. Didn't Vettel ignore the team in Malaysia? What came of that?? Neither obeyed, yet neither were fired so it is not as black and white as you say.



#132 senna da silva

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:17

If Patrick Head was still there, Maldonado wouldn't need to worry about being dropped for the last race, he'd still be in hospital.

 

Yes Patrick Head a lovely man who all the drivers loved.  :rolleyes:

Except for Alan Jones because of that Australian man love they had for each other!  :wave:



#133 PoleMan

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:40

Grammar has nothing to do with it. I look forward to you honestly attributing sources rather than passing off others' works as your own, Grasshopper*.



*cf. Kung Fu.

No padawan, I was intructing you in the traditionally accepted method of writing (sic), which you failed to adhere to in your initial sophomoric attempt at pedantry. I even italicized that commonly and widely available description just for your benefit. Your claim that I, somehow, tried to plagiarize "How to properly use (sic)?," vividly displays that your pedagogery is only exceeded by your mendacity.

 

Have a good one!



#134 Wander

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:41

So let me ask you. Do you believe that in the history of F1, sabotage has ever taken place?? Has a team ever used unjust intentions to unfairly influence another driver? Or are we to believe all is well and just? Just to clarify You claim "simply telling driver's will suffice" As i recall, it didn't suffice on numerous occasions in 2007. I remember Hamilton ignoring the team i Q which led to the pit lane incident with Alonso. Didn't Vettel ignore the team in Malaysia? What came of that?? Neither obeyed, yet neither were fired so it is not as black and white as you say.

 

 

Well, I remember reading that Andrea Moda once sent Perry McCarthy out with a steering column that they already knew to be broken, but that was probably just because they were out of money and steering columns.

 

To claim sabotage, I think you'd have to be able to explain to whose benefit it is done and whether it makes sense for the team. You'd also have to rule out other likely explanations for the performance. As it happens, this qualifying was run in conditions, which surprised quite a few drivers and Valtteri & Pastor weren't the only team-mates to have a big gap between them. I'm not claiming to know anything, but could it not be that Pastor's apparent tyre temperature/pressure problems were the same ones that Nico Rosberg said ruined his performance?



#135 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:50

So let me ask you. Do you believe that in the history of F1, sabotage has ever taken place?? Has a team ever used unjust intentions to unfairly influence another driver? Or are we to believe all is well and just? Just to clarify You claim "simply telling driver's will suffice" As i recall, it didn't suffice on numerous occasions in 2007. I remember Hamilton ignoring the team i Q which led to the pit lane incident with Alonso. Didn't Vettel ignore the team in Malaysia? What came of that?? Neither obeyed, yet neither were fired so it is not as black and white as you say.

 

Goodness me, historical knowledge of F1 is not exactly a forte for me, so I get to speculate with my answer(s) a little -- or rather, I'll dodge the history and give you an alternative option.

 

If we agree on the premise that the team decides what is good for them and what their goals are -- and since they are 'the boss' of any set of drivers -- then the answer is simply no to any questions about sabotage, fairness or what is just or not. Does that mean that some drivers have gotten the short stick because of that? -- Sure. Is that fair to the driver 'losing out'? -- From the teams perspective, yes it is -- and, remember, the driver works for the team. Ergo, the team and the driver ought to be content -- and if the driver isn't? -- Well, tough luck son.

 

Now, there have been instances that a driver has ignored his teams orders and done whatever he wanted. As always, it has been up to the team to decide what the consequences are for such behavior. I suppose that the team evaluated what was the best course to take for them-- and handled the matter accordingly.

 

F1, as a sport, is not the same as, say, Olympic Games, where fairness and equal opportunity is a 'given' (let's skip the doping issues to keep this simple). F1 is inherently unequal undertaking, where corporate interests often trump ideal scenarios, where money makes huge difference in performance, nullifying any pretense of level playing field to start with, between the teams then.

 

In the end, our heroes (the drivers) are employed by the teams and they will decide what will happen and who gets to shine. Fair or not -- that is the name of the game and all there is to it.

 

Added: By the way, I am still curious about your reference to 2007 season earlier. What incident are you talking about?


Edited by Pothead4Philosopher, 17 November 2013 - 06:19.


#136 ElDictatore

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 06:15

http://www1.skysport.../f1/9028979/ted

 

at 9:00 minutes Ted Kravitz explains that what Maldonado meant is that Williams just have let him out in traffic, which hurt his tyre temps and ruined the Q.

That being said, I think it shows a bit how Maldonado is in that regard. I mean he nearly crashed into Bottas, forcing him off track, at the chicane at the last lap in Suzuka. That plus the intentional crashes he did so far in F1 leaves me hoping we doesn't get a drive for next year.



#137 garagetinkerer

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 06:19

I don't think Williams sabotaged his car, but I think it's pretty reasonable to be suspicious of your team if they clearly don't want you back next year, and all of a sudden you're magically 2 seconds behind a teammate who you've been consistently ahead of all year. Sauber sent Hulkenberg out in Q1 with a brake change and didn't tell him, so it's not unreasonable to think Williams might've (with good intentions) messed with his setup and he wasn't ready for it. Wait a minute, isn't this the same forum that's been claiming for years that Mark Webber gets all the bullshit parts and Red Bull sabotage him to make their golden boy look good?

 

Where is this arrogance? Because the usual party of shit-piling on the unpopular drivers on this forum is humble and reasonable, right? Yeah, Maldonado's attitude sucks. So does almost the entire team's performance and no one would give two shits if it wasn't Williams with all their history and a big British flag next to their name. I notice Frank didn't have much to say about Pastor's attitude when he was handing over a cheque to keep his entire team afloat. I didn't see Claire complaining when Maldonado put that mediocre at best car on the front row at Spain and then gave Williams their first win a decade. No one had anything bad to say about him then. Maybe I've got the wrong standings, but mine say Pastor Maldonado 1 point, Valtteri Bottas 0 points. Does that mean that he can be a prick? No. Does it mean he can be unprofessional? No. But that team has a lot to be thankful to him for in the past couple seasons, not the least of which might be their entire continued existence, and the fact he brought some genuine, deserved glory to that team when Mark Webber, Antonio Pizzonia, Nick Heidfeld, Marc Gene, Nico Rosberg, Alexander Wurz, Kazuki Nakajima, Nico Hulkenberg, Rubens Barrichello and Bruno Senna didn't.

 

I don't want to come off like I love the guy or something, Bottas is probably a better bet for them moving forward and Williams would know a hell of a lot more about that than I would. I just get tired of Maldonado/Grosjean/etc. being shit on around here when the same people bitching give other drivers a free pass. Where are the threads about Perez being an entitled little ****? Why isn't there a thread for Button complaining about the car on live TV literally every single race this season? Where are the threads about Raikkonen bitching at his team on the radio every chance he gets? A little consistency would be nice. The history of this sport was written primarily by rich kids, prima donnas and drivers who blamed everyone but themselves. It's fair to say Maldonado's attitude is shit, because it is. But it's not fair to make out like it's only him when he's a drop in the ocean.

:up:

 

You should have also reminded some of the forumers about what Williams said to Patrese when he was competing with Mansell in '92 (for the uninitiated, Williams reminded Patrese that he was to support Mansell and Mansell was the star...). If only the team didn't have a bit of a history (i'm a tifoso, i have my suitcases (baggage!)), and i understand what it means :p to have history... then may be this outrage will make sense. Your first post was right on the money Andrew... most of us know little, but we pretend like we know a lot!



#138 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 06:32

:up:

 

You should have also reminded some of the forumers about what Williams said to Patrese when he was competing with Mansell in '92 (for the uninitiated, Williams reminded Patrese that he was to support Mansell and Mansell was the star...). If only the team didn't have a bit of a history (i'm a tifoso, i have my suitcases (baggage!)), and i understand what it means :p to have history... then may be this outrage will make sense. Your first post was right on the money Andrew... most of us know little, but we pretend like we know a lot!

 

 

Hm, if sir Frank needed to remind Patrese of such thing, then it wasn't really news to the man, right? --Son, you are number two driver as agreed, do not piss me off.....! (paraphrasing here)

 

What's wrong with that -- in F1 cadre then? -- Team orders are a fact of life -- always been. See the on-going conversation we are having on the matter.

 

For the record: Andrew did not say we know 'little', he said we know 'nothing'. What my reply to that was, you can find on page 1 of this thread.



#139 garagetinkerer

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 06:38

Hm, if sir Frank needed to remind Patrese of such thing, then it wasn't really news to the man, right? --Son, you are number two driver as agreed, do not piss me off.....! (paraphrasing here)

 

What's wrong with that -- in F1 cadre then? -- Team orders are a fact of life -- always been. See the on-going conversation we are having on the matter.

 

For the record: Andrew did not say we know 'little', he said we know 'nothing'. What my reply to that was, you can find on page 1 of this thread.

I think a lot knew nothing... some do a fair bit and a select few, know a lot (i'm not in the latter category :p somewhere in between is how i'd rate myself)... i hope that clears my opinion on things. Some selective posters who do their homework, are rather the exception that proved the rule which was specified by Andrew... whether you like it or not, as far as i can tell, it changes little.

 

note: i have read some of your posts elsewhere... i have most certainly enjoyed reading some them. cheers!


Edited by garagetinkerer, 17 November 2013 - 06:38.


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#140 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 06:43

I think a lot knew nothing... some do a fair bit and a select few, know a lot (i'm not in the latter category :p somewhere in between is how i'd rate myself)... i hope that clears my opinion on things. Some selective posters who do their homework, are rather the exception that proved the rule which was specified by Andrew... whether you like it or not, as far as i can tell, it changes little.

 

note: i have read some of your posts elsewhere... i have most certainly enjoyed reading some them. cheers!

 

Hah -- I am amazed by the depth of my ignorance daily, unless I am ignorant of my ignorance, which probably makes me stupid as well, so no worries.

 

I, often, like Andrew's posts, just took an exception to that particular formulation. Bygones, hein?

 

;-))



#141 garagetinkerer

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 06:48

Hah -- I am amazed by the depth of my ignorance daily, unless I am ignorant of my ignorance, which probably makes me stupid as well, so no worries.

 

I, often, like Andrew's posts, just took an exception to that particular formulation. Bygones, hein?

 

;-))

:up:

 

Well, Maldonado may be should have kept his suspicions to himself... even though i think he may be right. :stoned:

 

cheers!


Edited by garagetinkerer, 17 November 2013 - 06:48.


#142 jedioriginal

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 07:25

Pastor is a fast and aggressive driver with a penchant for brain fade and rash overtaking maneuvers. Obviously, the relationship inside the Williams garage has soured, but I'd say an incredible accusation like he's leveled at the team should require an equally astounding level of proof. I doubt we're going to see that, but something about this story did seem eerily familiar to me, and then the Google Machine produced this:

"Oct.9 (GMM) F1's governing body has opened a new investigation into McLaren, amid claims that the Woking based team may have sabotaged Fernando Alonso's car in China, reports on Tuesday said. At the conclusion of the espionage saga last month, FIA president Max Mosley warned that the Paris body would closely monitor McLaren for signs of retribution against the Spaniard's involvement in providing evidence that ultimately cost the team $100 million and exclusion from the constructors' world championship.
The Spanish newspaper La Nueva Espana claims that Alonso's tyres were extremely over-inflated due to being heated too much prior to the 'Q3' section of qualifying in Shanghai.
"I think they are still investigating," the 26-year-old had told reporters on Sunday, 24 hours after the incident that left him baffled and six tenths slower than his teammate, championship rival and pole-sitter Lewis Hamilton. Alonso added: "I think the tyre pressures were quite high, more than normal, but I don't know if it was that or another explanation."


Point being, it wouldn't be the first time something like this has happened in an iconic F1 team when a relationship goes bad.

You do realise that what comes to Alonso,spanish press is as trustworthy as toilet paper. But i do agree that something is wrong here.There is just no way that maldo is suddenly 1.5 secs slower than his team mate.

Edited by jedioriginal, 17 November 2013 - 07:26.


#143 Wander

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 07:48

:up:

 

You should have also reminded some of the forumers about what Williams said to Patrese when he was competing with Mansell in '92 (for the uninitiated, Williams reminded Patrese that he was to support Mansell and Mansell was the star...). If only the team didn't have a bit of a history (i'm a tifoso, i have my suitcases (baggage!)), and i understand what it means :p to have history... then may be this outrage will make sense. Your first post was right on the money Andrew... most of us know little, but we pretend like we know a lot!

 

There's actually a pretty interesting and relevant story Mansell had regarding Patrese and Williams in 1992:

 

"Riccardo was my team mate, he didn't really understand why his car was slower than mine.-- One of the first races was Brazil earlier in the year, and he was terribly upset, because I was on pole by almost two seconds or more over him. And we did something, which people don't even know. And I pleaded with Frank and Patrick and said 'Look, we have a long year ahead of us. Riccardo has got it in his head that my car is obviously very different and much quicker than his, so can we swap cars for second qualifying so I have his qualifying car and he has mine. And we did that. And on the second lap past the pits I put his car on pole position one and a half seconds quicker than he'd gone on the second lap. And that created a bond between Riccardo and I because he knew we had equal parity and equipment in the team. It's the finest thing I ever did for a team mate, cause then he was able to go in the car with confidence."

 

Source: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=2wyKJiuTWdk around 55:00

 

So maybe Mansell was "the star", but the cars were still equal if you trust Mansell's account. 


Edited by Wander, 17 November 2013 - 07:49.


#144 Molo19

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 07:56

I don't want to take anything away from Valtteri's Q1 and Q2 performances, which were beautiful, but in the light of Williams having undermined their out-bound drivers in the past, I can't really blame Pastor. Valtteri may well have outperformed the car, but even that doesn't explain such a massive gap against a proven quali specialist.

 

Also, I thought Williams' response to Pastor's sabotage suggestion was a bit strange. I would expect the management to really lash out at him - not play the whole thing down - if they knew there was no foul play, but rather just a mediocre performance from the driver.

 

At any rate, it's very clear that the change of lineup is very much needed for 2014.



#145 RosannaG

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 08:07

I don't want to take anything away from Valtteri's Q1 and Q2 performances, which were beautiful, but in the light of Williams having undermined their out-bound drivers in the past, I can't really blame Pastor. Valtteri may well have outperformed the car, but even that doesn't explain such a massive gap against a proven quali specialist.

 

Also, I thought Williams' response to Pastor's sabotage suggestion was a bit strange. I would expect the management to really lash out at him - not play the whole thing down - if they knew there was no foul play, but rather just a mediocre performance from the driver.

 

At any rate, it's very clear that the change of lineup is very much needed for 2014.

 

I don't know but perhaps Williams' management considered it wasn't worthy it to start a confrontation that would lead all the parts involved nowhere... 

 

We'll see what happens today and the days ahead... 

 

And we thought the last races were going to be boring...  :lol:



#146 Jvr

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 08:21

I did not see Pastor's Q1 but what I read is that Gutierrez was given 10 grid position penalty and Chilton a drive through penalty as an aftermath of delaying Pastor on two separate laps. Also some drivers were telling that it was difficult to get the temperature up especially with the front tires because the weather was cool and they said this was especially clear if you were in any kind of traffic. Is this not enough to explain his grid position rather than sabotage? Besides Bottas was brilliant so seems sour grapes to me...

#147 jjcale

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 08:21

Relationship between PM and the team is all but over .... and his team mate suddenly crushes him in Quali..... very likely the two things are related.... and it doesn't need to be sabotage. Drivers tend to be little politicians, constantly working to get the team on their side...... if it doesn't reflect in laptimes, why do you all think that they do that??

 

... and (as a few have pointed out) its not like this is the first time something like this has happened in F1 .... but I swear there are a lot of folks that cannot see anything for themselves and need to be guided around by the nose by Brundle, Autosport, the idiot writer at the BBC whose name slips me at the moment, etc.  



#148 seahawk

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 08:26

It is normal business. There might be some parts for next year, Pastor did not get. The engineers will focus on Bottas now, as he will be with them next year. The tires needed an intelligent approach to use them best. For Pastor it is sabotage, for Williams it is normal practice.



#149 Piif

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 08:28

Because there is a thing called intuition and i choose to use it. There is no evidence man landed on the moon in 1969 yet many choose to believe it.

This tells enough of your judgement. The tinfoil is found at isle 3, sir.

Anyone who watched the qually, could see how good Bottas was on each of his laps. It's just a shame that it gets dismissd because of a venezuelan turd who thinks far too highly of himself.

Edited by Piif, 17 November 2013 - 08:30.


#150 ensign14

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 08:30

:up:

 

You should have also reminded some of the forumers about what Williams said to Patrese when he was competing with Mansell in '92 (for the uninitiated, Williams reminded Patrese that he was to support Mansell and Mansell was the star...).

 

You would have to have serious intellectual difficulties if you think Patrese was ever a legitimate threat to Mansell.