66 replies to this topic

[Shiroo]

So we all know that Hamilton, Raikkonen, Alonso and Vettel are best drivers.

But Raikkonen and Alonso are pretty old already. Who will replace them as Top Tier ?

I'm pretty amazed by recent Grosjean performance, if he will perform like that all the time, then I would go with him.

Yet Hulkenberg is really good as well. But I don't know, if Sauber is rather decent car already, and Gutierrez underperforming massively, or he is SO good. That's why I would see him next to the Grosjean next year (though it is unlikely sadly)

Edited by Shiroo, 17 November 2013 - 13:35.

[P123]

Maybe Hulk, but at present the most likely other options would be Kvyat and Magnussen, if the live up to their potential.

[Radion]

Impossible to tell.

It's one thing to shine in midfield cars, it's another driving for world championships year after year. 

 

Nobody knows how hulk'll handle pressure when fighting for victorys yet. The only thime he had a good shot at a win, he blew it...

The same goes for every other 'rising' star.

[Clatter]

Where's the none of the above option? 

 

I don't who will be the next big player, but don't think they are in that list. 

[sopa]

Hulkenberg is the closest from the names listed with Grosjean with his improvement making a strong case of being second. But time will tell if they actually reach the top tier or will remain bridesmaids in 5 years' time while the new generation has emerged. Reminds me of what would the answers be if such question was asked around 2000. Michael Schumacher, Hakkinen (and maybe to an extent Villeneuve) were considered as top drivers at the time, but you'd get Ralf Schumacher, Montoya, Fisichella, Trulli (ok, Button as well) as your answers about future top tiers. However, these guys remained forever bridesmaids.

[FenderJaguar]

Hulkenberg. I am not impressed with Grosjean's season. The last races he has been flattered by a team where the top driver left and that Boullier is his manager. I might change my mind next season if he keeps going. Perez, noway. Ricciardo is a questionmark. McLaren must have high hopes for Magnussen to sign him.

[jjcale]

Hulk was already a top tier driver even before he joined F1 ..... just like LH was from about 2005 onwards.

 

Watch the actual driving .... and not just the results.

[sopa]

I am not impressed with Grosjean's season. The last races he has been flattered by a team where the top driver left and that Boullier is his manager.

 

Even if you don't have a proper team-mate comparison, you still have to drive well and consistently to deliver results. Even if his team is favouring him, he would not be consistently competing for third places if he was driving badly, no? 

 

This is often the problem with driver level arguments. People disregard a driver, because team is "allegedely favouring him", but it is forgotten that the results don't come itself regardless of how much favouring you get.

[DS27]

Hulk is often qualifying and finishing ahead of some of those guys in a Sauber - I don't care what anyone else thinks, for me he is in the top tier already. Hopefully he gets the chance to prove me right or wrong by getting a top drive one day.

Edited by DS27, 17 November 2013 - 13:49.

[Spillage]

Perhaps I'm jumping the gun, but in the second half of this season I've become increasingly convinced that Hulkenberg is a top-tier driver already.

[KWSN - DSM]

If you are the next big thing, you show that right away. None of the mentioned have shown anything which makes me think they are something special as in being on a level with Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton:

 

Hulkenberg - Battling (again) to even get a seat, obviously none of the front running teams see him as a can't miss.

Grosjean - Have been in a race winning team 2 seasons, and have not won a race. He may still win a lot, but nothing he have done marks as top tier special.

Ricciardo - Promoted to the number 1 team for next season, we will see then I expect a lvel of Webber, which is very good not great.

Perez - Just thrown on the scrapheap and no one is lining up to secure his services.

None of the above - That has to be someone not yet in F1, as a Dane would love it to be Kevin Magnussen, but not having seen him race in anger can not see why he should be preferred over a number of other drivers from the lower formulas, maybe Kvyat is the right answer.

 

[Buttoneer]

So we all know that Hamilton, Raikkonen, Alonso and Vettel are best drivers.

 

 

I don't agree with the basic premise here.  There might be a consensus, but only because these guys are in the best cars and have had a chance to show their ability.  This is a point which is highlighted by the nature of this poll, in fact, because we are now trying to reach a consensus about who will join the 'top tier' group.  If they do, they will not suddenly have become good, but will have simply been unrecognised.

 

Agree with Spillage that Hulkenberg is already a top driver.

[FenderJaguar]

Even if you don't have a proper team-mate comparison, you still have to drive well and consistently to deliver results. Even if his team is favouring him, he would not be consistently competing for third places if he was driving badly, no? 

 

This is often the problem with driver level arguments. People disregard a driver, because team is "allegedely favouring him", but it is forgotten that the results don't come itself regardless of how much favouring you get.

 

I don't think his driving is that good yet. Still mistakes and insecurity in his driving but it's just my opinion.

[IamFasterthanU]

Hulk is often qualifying and finishing ahead of some of those guys in a Sauber - I don't care what anyone else thinks, for me he is in the top tier already. Hopefully he gets the chance to prove me right or wrong by getting a top drive one day.

 

Last year people were saying the same about Perez and look what happened to him this year. Seeing Gut in top 10 in quali yesterday confirmed my belief that the Sauber is a pretty good car to be in at the moment (just like it was last year). We can say one thing for sure that he is a above average but can't say that he is a top tier driver because he has a pretty weak teammate at the moment. 

[sopa]

Last year people were saying the same about Perez and look what happened to him this year. Seeing Gut in top 10 in quali yesterday confirmed my belief that the Sauber is a pretty good car to be in at the moment (just like it was last year). We can say one thing for sure that he is a above average but can't say that he is a top tier driver because he has a pretty weak teammate at the moment. 

 

I agree we can't say for sure Hulkenberg is top tier. And the Sauber is pretty good as well, no doubt. But the difference with Perez is that Hulkenberg is more consistent. Look at Perez in McLaren. He can outqualify and occasionally outrace Button there too, but lacks consistency. Hulkenberg seems to qualify this car around top 6 placings consistently and races thereabouts unless he hits problems. Perez, regardless of how we view his 2012, never possessed this kind of consistency. He had three impressive podiums, but in addition to that he did have what? Quite a few incidents and lack-of-pace races.

Edited by sopa, 17 November 2013 - 14:12.

[RosannaG]

I voted for Hulkenberg. He is driving remarkably well this season. 

 

And of course, I wonder how he is still without a seat for next year...   

 

Grosjean is doing quite well but if I was the one in charge of hiring a driver for my team, I would chose Hulk, no doubt. 

[sopa]

I voted for Hulkenberg. He is driving remarkably well this season. 

 

And of course, I wonder how he is still without a seat for next year... 

 

I liked Brundle's sneaky comment yesterday after quali. It was something like "oh never noticed but that guy in fourth position seems like quite a good driver. Maybe we should consider him for a seat."

Edited by sopa, 17 November 2013 - 14:17.

[trogggy]

Hulk was already a top tier driver even before he joined F1 ..... just like LH was from about 2005 onwards.

 

Watch the actual driving .... and not just the results.

I guess Rubens didn't get the email then?

[RosannaG]

I liked Brundle's sneaky comment yesterday after quali. It was something like "oh never noticed but that guy in fourth position seems like quite a good driver. Maybe we should consider him for a seat."

 

 

I hate to think that Hulk could not be in F1 next year... 

[SpaMaster]

So we all know that Hamilton, Raikkonen, Alonso and Vettel are best drivers.

But Raikkonen and Alonso are pretty old already. Who will replace them as Top Tier ?

I'm pretty amazed by recent Grosjean performance, if he will perform like that all the time, then I would go with him.

Yet Hulkenberg is really good as well. But I don't know, if Sauber is rather decent car already, and Gutierrez underperforming massively, or he is SO good. That's why I would see him next to the Grosjean next year (though it is unlikely sadly)

Falling for the Grosjean hype? Please.. He has had a handful of good races, that's all. He has been a crash-master for a long time, and has a long way to go to be even thought of as a future top driver. He has shown good qualy pace, but race is a whole different thing. I have felt that even when his qualy pace was good, there was a vast difference in his race pace compared to Raikkonen's. A case in point - Korea. Raikkonen was running with older tyres, yet he was consistently setting faster times until the final two laps. You could see it in many other instances as well - there is a marked difference in performance when Raikkonen was running up-front compared to the times when Grosjean runs up-front. He can be a good driver, that's all, we are a long way off from thinking of him as possible top driver.

 

Apart from Hulkenberg, we haven't seen enough of any driver to be thought of as future top driver.

[Jimisgod]

This is a pointless poll because none of the above have been in a championship contending car, bar the 2012/13 Lotus, which only won one race a year anyway. Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi all had years of time in seats where their teammates also won many races (ie. The cars were good.)

As of now we can only judge potential.

Hulkenberg - 85% chance - shown he can beat teammates and deliver consistent points in un-spectacular cars. Could be an Alonso... or a Fisichella, but I think he has shown the mental fortitude of the former in wheel to wheel racing.

Grosjean - 65% - Weak start to the year, strong once the team moved focus to him and away from Kimi. Could be a champ but very fragile mental state makes me think he'd be a Button-esqe champion, only in a car with a clear advantage.

Ricciardo - 60% - Shown a clean pair of heels, only one DNF in his career was his fault. Can race wheel to wheel with the best. Vettel could trash him and destroy his confidence.

Magnussen & Kyvat - Haven't seen a race out of them so who knows.

[sopa]

Ricciardo - 60% - Shown a clean pair of heels, only one DNF in his career was his fault. Can race wheel to wheel with the best. Vettel could trash him and destroy his confidence.

 

The problem with Ricciardo is that I have noticed he keeps making bad starts, just like Webber. He has often started somewhere in top ten only to find him outside of top ten after the first lap. I know Webber's bad starts get a lot of jokes and talks of favoritism, but I think we are going to see more of the same with Ricciardo next year. And it is not about favouring or "clutch sabotage", because he is making such starts in a different team right now!

Edited by sopa, 17 November 2013 - 14:58.

[maximilian]

You forgot Rosberg.

[noikeee]

Hulk - maybe. I think he's Rosberg/Button level so maybe just a tiny little bit short but still capable of a title in the right car and the right conditions. Jury still a bit out on him.

 

The others I don't think so.

[engineblock1]

Clearly Niko Hulkenberg is the man on course to become a top tier driver. Grosjean, well has been made look good by a rather competitive Lotus car. He still hasn't got the smart instinct or technique like Alonso, Raikkonen whereas Niko has demonstrated that recently in a midfield car.

[Tommay]

People are quick to forget that Grosjean would of scored his first win last year at Valencia if it wasn't for a mechanical failure

[Seanspeed]

People are quick to forget that Grosjean would of scored his first win last year at Valencia if it wasn't for a mechanical failure

Wasn't guaranteed, but I think it would have been quite likely, I'll agree.  But no, people aren't really quick to forget that.  Just conveniently ignored, is more like it.

 

Grosjean's speed was impressive from Day 1, too.  Its not like his run of form lately is completely out-of-the-blue or anything. 

 

And Hulkenberg did take a little bit of time to warm up and really show some huge flashes of talent, but he's impressing more and more.

 

I don't know if these guys are in the same league as Alonso, Vettel and Lewis, but I think they very well are the ones closest to it at the moment out of those guys listed. 

[ebc]

There is a reason Hulkenberg is struggling to find a seat, it is because he is not that good. He was beaten by Rubens, beat DiResta and now Gutierrez, which is fine but he has not done enough in 3 seasons to warrant a top drive.

If Lotus thought he could do what Kimi has done they would sign him, Mclaren have passed him over 2 years in a row and Ferrari have not gone for him either, wasn‘t even mentioned for the RedBull seat.

He is good but nothing special.

Magnussan and especially Kyvat look very good so I would go for one of those two.

[William Hunt]

What about Rosberg? He is more or less matching Hamilton this year

[Kingshark]

Poor Rosberg. Probably one of the most overlooked drivers of all time. He's basically matched Hamilton this year and many people still don't rate him. 

 

From the voting options, I voted Hulkenberg, though Grosjean follows him closely, then Perez, and finally Ricciardo.

[bub]

Hulkenberg, Ricciardo and Bottas.

 

Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi, Button and Rosberg are already there imo.

Edited by bub, 17 November 2013 - 17:54.

[SpaMaster]

People are quick to forget that Grosjean would of scored his first win last year at Valencia if it wasn't for a mechanical failure

Didn't Alonso overtake him before he retired?

[jedioriginal]

Falling for the Grosjean hype? Please.. He has had a handful of good races, that's all. He has been a crash-master for a long time, and has a long way to go to be even thought of as a future top driver. He has shown good qualy pace, but race is a whole different thing. I have felt that even when his qualy pace was good, there was a vast difference in his race pace compared to Raikkonen's. A case in point - Korea. Raikkonen was running with older tyres, yet he was consistently setting faster times until the final two laps. You could see it in many other instances as well - there is a marked difference in performance when Raikkonen was running up-front compared to the times when Grosjean runs up-front. He can be a good driver, that's all, we are a long way off from thinking of him as possible top driver.

 

Apart from Hulkenberg, we haven't seen enough of any driver to be thought of as future top driver.

[Gyan]

Hulkenberg.

 

Even if you think the car's like, the 5th fastest car, he's still finishing ahead of the Mercs, Ferraris and Lotuses consistently. He seems to have moved on mentally quite a lot from his mess up in Brazil 2012. He has an uncertain future, hadn't been paid either and that's a lot to stress about, but he still turns in great performances on weekends. He has built up that mental fortitude as well. I rate him as a top tier driver because I can't see Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Raikkonen doing any better than he is if they were in that Sauber.

[DriveFastLiveSlow]

Bottas.

[IamFasterthanU]

Hulkenberg.

 

Even if you think the car's like, the 5th fastest car, he's still finishing ahead of the Mercs, Ferraris and Lotuses consistently. He seems to have moved on mentally quite a lot from his mess up in Brazil 2012. He has an uncertain future, hadn't been paid either and that's a lot to stress about, but he still turns in great performances on weekends. He has built up that mental fortitude as well. I rate him as a top tier driver because I can't see Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Raikkonen doing any better than he is if they were in that Sauber.

Esteban gutierrez can't qualify 10th in a 5th fastest car. At the moment, I believe the car is at par with Merc (on a bad day) and Ferrari if not slightly better. Yes, he is good and as sopa said is consistent. But this is pure exaggeration and if he is so good (that he doesn't need a good car under him for top 10 results) why is he still 9 points behind Di Resta who is a solid mid field driver in my opinion.

[kimister]

Didn't Alonso overtake him before he retired?

 Yeah, I remember like that also.

 

I think Hulk really showed his class. He should have been given a chance by top teams 

 

For Gro, I am not so sure. No doubt he is good , but that good ? I do not know why but I feel that he needs to feel himself confident in being supported %100 by the team to be able to perform at high level, otherwise it seems he is very inconsistent during races   Therefore, I want to see him next year as Lotus's lead driver in a full season.

[mnmracer]

Some people should just give up on ranking cars. Too often it just gets embarrassing and only reflects badly on whoever they try to make look good.

[MikeV1987]

Ricciardo will surprise.

[apoka]

Rosberg. (Maybe he isn't mentioned, since he is already close to that level?)

 

Hulkenberg is also a good pick, possible Grosjean but I am still a bit unsure there.

 

[TheNecromancer]

Well currently the 6-tiered system shows:

 

Tier 1: Alonso, Raikkonen

Tier 2: Vettel, Hamilton, Button

Tier 3: Hulkenberg, Rosberg, Grosjean

Tier 4: Webber, Massa, Di Resta

Tier 5: Ricciardo, Maldonado, Sutil, Perez

Tier 6: Rest of Drivers

 

It seems to me that these drivers can only hope to reach Tier 2, the top tier is for legendary drivers and I can hardly see anyone of them making it that far.

[Jackmancer]

Grosjean is already a top tier driver. After Vettel, he scored the most points in the last five races.

[1Devil1]

Hulk was already a top tier driver even before he joined F1 ..... just like LH was from about 2005 onwards.

 

Watch the actual driving .... and not just the results.

 

Both were not, only because of a impressive F3/GP2 record your are not a top tier in Formula One, is a difference,  but I know where you coming from...

[Vesuvius]

Didn't Alonso overtake him before he retired?

Yeah Alonso did overtake him...and people still keep on saying Grosjean would have won without car problem, which is not true because if that can be said about his race than people should also remember that certain Vettel was already leading by 25 seconds before his car failed...so no Grosjean wasnt winning that race.


Future top tier drivers: Grosjean, Hulkenberg and Bottas(who has had good first year in a horrible car...which is the reason people dont notice him)

Edited by Vesuvius, 17 November 2013 - 22:37.

[Vesuvius]

Grosjean is already a top tier driver. After Vettel, he scored the most points in the last five races.

If that does make top tier driver than yes, but I would say he needs to win a race and keep on getting results like now for many years...and he must also be good on a bad car before he can be absolute top class.

[F.M.]

Ricciardo is the most likely given the cars those drivers will probably have at their disposal next year.

[sopa]

Grosjean is already a top tier driver. After Vettel, he scored the most points in the last five races.

 

Actually from the German Grand Prix onwards, Grosjean is the third highest point-scorer after Vettel and Alonso. Not bad. But yeah, in the second half of 2006 Button outscored everyone, so half a year of evidence still leaves some thing open. But I have to say I like what I see.

[Watkins74]

Well currently the 6-tiered system shows:

 

Tier 1: Alonso, Raikkonen

Tier 2: Vettel, Hamilton, Button

Tier 3: Hulkenberg, Rosberg, Grosjean

Tier 4: Webber, Massa, Di Resta

Tier 5: Ricciardo, Maldonado, Sutil, Perez

Tier 6: Rest of Drivers

 

It seems to me that these drivers can only hope to reach Tier 2, the top tier is for legendary drivers and I can hardly see anyone of them making it that far.

Tier 1: Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton

Tier 2: Button, Raikkonen

Tier 3: Hulkenberg, Rosberg, Grosjean

Tier 4: Webber, Massa, Di Resta

Tier 5: Ricciardo, Maldonado, Sutil, Perez

Tier 6: Rest of Drivers

[Shiroo]

Well currently the 6-tiered system shows:

 

Tier 1: Alonso, Raikkonen

Tier 2: Vettel, Hamilton, Button

Tier 3: Hulkenberg, Rosberg, Grosjean

Tier 4: Webber, Massa, Di Resta

Tier 5: Ricciardo, Maldonado, Sutil, Perez

Tier 6: Rest of Drivers

 

It seems to me that these drivers can only hope to reach Tier 2, the top tier is for legendary drivers and I can hardly see anyone of them making it that far.

 

so 1x WDC that actually lucked it, and 2x WDC are higher tier than 4x WDC that had 8 wins in a row? Amazing.

[sopa]

Seriously, I think we indeed need to define, what we mean with top tier. Let's take Grosjean. People are not in agreement what they mean if they include him in this list. Some say he is good, some say unproven. Now, seriously, I don't think Grosjean is your Vettel or Alonso, who writes himself into the history books.

 

But this string of consecutive podiums is not too dissimilar to what Button did in 2004 in the BAR throughout the season. Lots of podiums in what was a very good, solid and fast car. Now, many people think Button is your Tier 2. But where is the line between Tier 1 or Tier 2? I don't like those tiers actually, because you can't fix groups, but if we try to define a tier 2, then tier 2 can also win a championship. And Button is a member of WDC group. Button is not an all-time-legend though, but he is your championship contender, semi-regular race winner and a top team driver for many years.

 

Are we looking for all-time-legends in this thread or just drivers, who can be frontrunners, get podiums and wins and simply be a significant force in F1 for years to come? I think we don't have legends here in this poll, but potentially a few drivers, who can generally be a serious force/competitor at the front of the field. And in Grosjean's case we can say that not only he CAN be, but he already IS a frontrunner, among frontrunners. Because a string of podiums is a serious statement. It is not like a driver needs to prove himself, he has proven himself already with strong results. Those second and third places are not too dissimilar to what Barrichello was doing in the Ferrari for many years.

Edited by sopa, 17 November 2013 - 22:51.