39 replies to this topic

[jannyg]

Okay, for me it has been pretty clear that Renault have upped their game during the second half of the season. Red Bull unbeatable, Lotus clear 2nd fastest and now Williams transforming.

 

Also everyone claims that F1 will become an 'Engine Formula' next year with Mercedes having the strongest, I for one cannot see how things will suddenly change 

 

 

What Renault have done I do not know, any ideas?

 

Could they have found something this year that can be used for next year hence why they have continued development?

 

 

I am now scared for next season. Can anybody shed some light please, because for me it seems clear that Renault have found something. 

[SpartanChas]

This is nothing to do with engine advantage. Caterham have Renault engines, why are they still fighting with the Marussia Cosworth?

[jannyg]

This is nothing to do with engine advantage. Caterham have Renault engines, why are they still fighting with the Marussia Cosworth?

 

I am asking a genuine question, can you shed light instead of being an arse?

 

Why have Red Bull and Lotus been so quick recently, three renault cars on the podium again in four of the last five races?.

[sharo]

The current engine is not the most powerful of all. Perhaps there is something in the way how they manage it and its modes of operation regarding delivered torque. But I haven't read anything particular. Just guessing on my side, like the rest I suppose. This must be one of the deepest secrets of Renault.

 

For next year I can't see how it will be engine dominated. There are restrictions, most of all the limited fuel flow. So no one can use more fuel to deliver more power. There will, of course, be variations. Especially because apart from the new turbo engine itself, for the first time there will be a compounded power unit of which the engine is the main part. Inevitably there will be problems of technical nature. For everyone. But I do not expect large differences between the engines. And yes, I suppose at Renault they will utilize their current knowledge.

[HoldenRT]

You just have to look at the engine as being more than just the power it produces.  You have to look at peak power, but also at fuel effeciency, traction and torque, packaging, mapping etc etc.

[SpartanChas]

All the engines are near enough equal at the moment. Red Bull is so far ahead of everyone else aerodynamically that they're in a different league, Lotus has really been there or thereabouts for the last two years, plus Grosjean has really taken a step forward to being a top driver.

 

Not sure about Williams on this, but I think they made some developments in their exhaust exit recently which is helping them a lot.

[jannyg]

The current engine is not the most powerful of all. Perhaps there is something in the way how they manage it and its modes of operation regarding delivered torque. But I haven't read anything particular. Just guessing on my side, like the rest I suppose. This must be one of the deepest secrets of Renault.

 

For next year I can't see how it will be engine dominated. There are restrictions, most of all the limited fuel flow. So no one can use more fuel to deliver more power. There will, of course, be variations. Especially because apart from the new turbo engine itself, for the first time there will be a compounded power unit of which the engine is the main part. Inevitably there will be problems of technical nature. For everyone. But I do not expect large differences between the engines. And yes, I suppose at Renault they will utilize their current knowledge.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

The 'modes of operation' that you mention is interesting, just keen to know what they could be doing.

[scheivlak]

 

Could they have found something this year that can be used for next year hence why they have continued development?

 

 

I am now scared for next season. Can anybody shed some light please, because for me it seems clear that Renault have found something. 

Are you new to F1 or living under a rock?

 

Next year there will be a totally, totally different formula engine wise.

 

Apart from that, engines are not allowed to be developed for quite some time now. And all engines must be the same for the entire year and in case of emergency you should be able to fall back on the engines you've already used before this year.

[nosecone]

The Renault power disadvantage has gone. What is still left is a smooth power curve which helps saving the tyres. On the other side it could just be that RB and Lotus build the best two cars.

I think Renault made a big step in improving their engine mapping. It's also speculated that the engine copes well with the coanda (or ramp, however you wanna call it) exhaust.

 

All those things together (the good car itself, the smooth power curve, the improved mapping) make the engine the probably best engine in the field right now. But you should not think it is all down to the engine. The example of Caterham points out that a good engine is worth nothing without a car.

 

What makes RB dominant and what makes Lotus competitive, is the interaction of the whole package.

Edited by nosecone, 17 November 2013 - 22:08.

[jannyg]

Are you new to F1 or living under a rock?

 

Next year there will be a totally, totally different formula engine wise.

 

Apart from that, engines are not allowed to be developed for quite some time now. And all engines must be the same for the entire year and in case of emergency you should be able to fall back on the engines you've already used before this year.

 

Whats the attitude for?

 

Maybe the title of the thread is wrong, all I am asking is if anybody has details on why the renault powered cars are now so strong.

 

Since the summer break they have been dominating, thought maybe there could be a reason for this. 

[KingTiger]

Renault has the best engine now. They used to have an HP disadvantage but FIA allowed them to improve their engine after Horner cried about it the entire 2009 season. At this point they have equal power to Ferrari and Mercedes but superior torque curve, packaging and cooling requirements and the best fuel consumption. 

[fabr68]

Renault is the best engine for offthrottle blowing. It is also the smallest and most fuel efficient. The perfect fit to those teams who hit the nail in the head with their car aero.

[Shiroo]

I'm absolutely sure that Renault will be next season also on par with Mercedes. They can't be the best, and the very next season sucks balls.

[scheivlak]

Whats the attitude for?

 

Maybe the title of the thread is wrong, all I am asking is if anybody has details on why the renault powered cars are now so strong.

 

Since the summer break they have been dominating, thought maybe there could be a reason for this. 

Well, I just gave an answer to two specific questions you asked. 

[Kelateboy]

Renault engines are still under-powered compared to Ferrari's and Mercedes' engines. What Renault engines lack in hp, they make it all up with fuel efficiency and drivability. They were further helped by the ban on refueling since 2010. The fuel efficiency means that Renault-powered cars start the GP some 3-4kg lighter than their rivals. That is a huge advantage at the start of the race, especially against Mercedes powered cars which are further handicapped with heavier fuel load from fired overrun during off-throttle/engine braking mode (10% hot blowing on 4 cylinders to ease off crackcase pressure).

 

Renault Sports also seem to be miles ahead of their competitors when it involves torque mapping and pedal mapping, coupled with cylinders deactivation to smoothen the torque delivery. However, for 2014, gear ratios will be fixed for the rest of the season so the efficiency of torque/pedal mapping will be slightly curtailed.

 

The single exit of exhaust in 2014 might further curtail the EBD effects. Currently, Renault Sports are using as much as 30% cold blowing off throttle. But I think they will be plenty of development of Y75 winglets (monkey seats) - the only bodywork that could be in front of the exhaust exit.

 

Let's wait for January 2014 for the first winter testing of V6 1.6L turbo engines. A powerful engine that guzzles more fuel and could not last the race distance or be gentle on the Pirelli tyres may not be the engine to have for 2014. 

[SenorSjon]

Renault has the best engine now. They used to have an HP disadvantage but FIA allowed them to improve their engine after Horner cried about it the entire 2009 season. At this point they have equal power to Ferrari and Mercedes but superior torque curve, packaging and cooling requirements and the best fuel consumption. 

This.

 

In 2006, they didn't know anything of a refuelling ban. With the new Renault engine in 2009, they were well aware they need an economical engine. Also with the Brawn development, they knew which area would have some strong attention.

 

It is the engine freeze and rev limit that is one of the hindrances of current F1 and it only gets worse.

 

 

 

This is nothing to do with engine advantage. Caterham have Renault engines, why are they still fighting with the Marussia Cosworth?

Perhaps the same reason why suddenly Williams is surging? Pay for the Plus package from Renault?

[Cesc]

The Renault has always had the best traction, since Alonso's times. Was not the most powerful, but was great on acceleration. Besides, if you car has the best aerodinamic efficiency, this can compensate the (very few) less power it has versus the opossition.

 

But I don't really know if they really did something on the engine side to be so superior or it is just coincidence. I think at this moment the three main engines are all quite equal.

[PayasYouRace]

Williams have improved because they were going up the wrong path with the coanda exhausts. They abandoned them and the car was a lot more driveable, meaning the drivers have more confidence in it and can get more speed out of it. I don't think anyone has attriibutted their improvement to Renault.

[jimjimjeroo]

Clever mapping clever aero

That is all

[Alburaq]

Many very interesting interviews about the Renault V8

http://motorsport.ne...t-F1,69816.html
http://motorsport.ne...RS27,69828.html
http://motorsport.ne...RS27,69826.html
http://motorsport.ne...RS26,69825.html
http://motorsport.ne...esil,69806.html

Edited by Alburaq, 22 November 2013 - 14:11.

[OO7]

Many very interesting interviews about the Renault V8

http://motorsport.ne...t-F1,69816.html
http://motorsport.ne...RS27,69828.html
http://motorsport.ne...RS27,69826.html
http://motorsport.ne...RS26,69825.html
http://motorsport.ne...esil,69806.html

Thanks Alburaq, there's a lot of really good information there. 

[Gorma]

It's funny how Renault has become the best engine now that Red Bull is winning.  It's not the best... even Red Bull wanted to switch to Mercedes couple of years ago and that move was blocked by McLaren (then works team). 

 

The reason why Grosjean is faster has nothing to do with Renault. They just got the tyres working. 

 

The reason why Williams is faster has once again nothing to do with Renault. They switched away from coanda exhaust and suddenly the car became more stable and predictable. 

 

Have you noticed that Sauber is also quicket and they have a Ferrari engine.

[DampMongoose]

Red Bull and Lotus may well be showing an advanatge for two simple reasons... Lotus are trying their hardest with the 2013 car because they look doubtful for next year unless they have an injection of funding.  So to try and increase their chances of that they have developed their car with little attention on the 2014 car compared to others.  Red Bull were already in a stronger position since the tyres were changed, as soon as the title was gone Mercedes, Ferrari and the rest have put far more attention into their new cars so the advantage has appeared to grow.

 

I'd say it has nothing at all to do with the Renault engine in either case.

[Kelateboy]

Fans should understand that despite the term engine homologation being thrown around for 2014, there are plenty of scope to develop the engine in the 1.6L V6 turbo era. It will be and engine development battle all over again and the one with the most money and know-how willl prevail.

[charly0418]

So people saying the Mercedes teams next year will have an advantage are overreacting?

I believe Massa said he liked Williams because they're going to have Mercedes.

[KingTiger]

It's funny how Renault has become the best engine now that Red Bull is winning.  It's not the best... even Red Bull wanted to switch to Mercedes couple of years ago and that move was blocked by McLaren (then works team). 

 

The reason why Grosjean is faster has nothing to do with Renault. They just got the tyres working. 

 

The reason why Williams is faster has once again nothing to do with Renault. They switched away from coanda exhaust and suddenly the car became more stable and predictable. 

 

Have you noticed that Sauber is also quicket and they have a Ferrari engine.

 

Renault is the best engine. If Red Bull were using Merc's there is absolutely no way they'd be dominating the way they have. 

[Kelateboy]

Renault is the best engine. If Red Bull were using Merc's there is absolutely no way they'd be dominating the way they have. 

 

Or, Red Bull could be much more dominant and might have had 5 WCCs and 5 WDCs in the row. In terms of pure horsepower, Mercedes engines are generally believe to have more horsepower than Renault engines, and that was the reason why back in the early 2010 season, Adrian Newey stated that Red Bull Racing tried to switch to Mercedes engine, but to no avail.

 

The Mercedes engine enjoyed a good advantage over the rest of the field last year. The lap time difference was significant – several tenths of a second. And when you have to find that kind of performance from the chassis, that’s quite a big ask.

 

But in the end Brawn and McLaren blocked us from having the Mercedes engine.

- Adrian Newey

 

 

[SenorSjon]

And with that constant whining they got what they want. Renault could make performance improvements and added more than that.

[Kelateboy]

And with that constant whining they got what they want. Renault could make performance improvements and added more than that.

 

Nope, Renault Sports did not get what they want at the beginning of 2010 season. Their request for "engine equalization" was turned down by the FIA. Instead the FIA asked other engine manufacturers to voluntarily detune their engines, which of course did not happen. This was what prompted RBR to look for other engine alternatives because Renault RS27 engines, at the start of 2010 campaign, was still down on horsepower to Mercedes.

 

According to James Allen :

According to analysis we ran on this site in November, the spread of engine power from the best to the worst engines this year was around 2.5%. This means that, if the Mercedes is believed to have had 755hp, the least powerful engine was 18hp down, which is worth just under 3/10ths of a second per lap.

 

Everybody bitched and tried to get some sorts of improvements/upgrades for their engines on whatever grounds, be it reliability, power deficiency, etc . Mercedes was known to be allowed 10% hot blowing on fired-overrun (on 4 cylinders) on reliability ground as a means to ease crackcase pressure. Ferrari also got an engine upgrade prior to Spanish 2010 GP.

“The team requested and received authorisation from the FIA to make some changes within the framework of the current engine regulations and these modifications will be fitted to the engines to be used in Spain (2010),” said a Ferrari statement yesterday.

 

So, let's not start hammering RBR and Renault Sports for what are essentially standard practices by the teams and engine manufacturers during the V8 engine homologation era.

[DanardiF1]

So people saying the Mercedes teams next year will have an advantage are overreacting?

I believe Massa said he liked Williams because they're going to have Mercedes.

 

But that's because the Ferrari unit is rumoured to be way behind the others on fuel consumption and power. So even if the Merc wasn't the best, it's not the worst according to most reports.

[ATM]

...then again, current state Williams is no Ferrari either. So, one up, one down. 

Anyway, what can Massa say? he has to look thrilled with his new move even if he would have gone to Marussia. You just can' go to the press saying "Goddamn it, this is the best choice I've had, I know it's a major setback but gimme a break!"...no? he has to outline some positives, at least for fans' delight. 

 

 We keep getting this rumor about the Ferrari engine being a bust. Whether it's true or not, I don't know. But my point is, given the development curve, is it sure that this engine (or any other engine) is already in the racing status,  without the possibility of improving them further until the season start? 

Edited by ATM, 24 November 2013 - 09:37.

[Yhamm]

last fire up at Red Bull:

 

last fire up at Caterham

[jimjimjeroo]

Well give it 9 weeks theyll hit the tarmac!

[PayasYouRace]

 V10 layout,

 

Why does Renault and not Honda always get all the credit for V10s? Both introduced V10 engines to F1 in 1989.

[Diablobb81]

Actually we might see the engines at the proposed Pirelli tire test in December.

[NexusIcon]

Reports of a fire involving the turbo unit of a test F1 engine in Brixworth, UK, last night,

http://inagist.com/a...75838289285120/

That'll be a Mercedes unit.

[CoolBreeze]

Okay, for me it has been pretty clear that Renault have upped their game during the second half of the season. Red Bull unbeatable, Lotus clear 2nd fastest and now Williams transforming.

 

Also everyone claims that F1 will become an 'Engine Formula' next year with Mercedes having the strongest, I for one cannot see how things will suddenly change 

 

 

What Renault have done I do not know, any ideas?

 

Could they have found something this year that can be used for next year hence why they have continued development?

 

 

I am now scared for next season. Can anybody shed some light please, because for me it seems clear that Renault have found something. 

 

Williams changed their exhaust layout. Red Bull smashed everyone since Pirelli changed its tyres after the British GP. Lotus have always been competitive. 

 

The engines are frozen mate. None of the teams you mentioned was because of the engines. 

[F.M.]

Nice add from Renault. An F1 car really looks like a toy amongst normal cars!

[Clatter]

I am asking a genuine question, can you shed light instead of being an arse?

 

Why have Red Bull and Lotus been so quick recently, three renault cars on the podium again in four of the last five races?.

It's quite simple really. They have built better cars than the other teams, and has nothing to do with "Renault having upped their game".

[packapoo]

Pretty simple, that