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Do you still enjoy F1? (and why?)


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#251 sopa

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 11:37

In this information age, I don't understand why the Red Bull model cannot be replicated successfully by the other teams, I really don't get it. You can hide stuff from very smart people for maybe one or two years, but four years and counting, really weird!

 

You can ask this about any field in life. And you can ask about most successful companies in the world, why can't others replicate them.

 

We can certainly get a lot of information about things nowadays. However, having knowledge, wisdom and education to use this information in the most efficient way is quite another matter. Let's put it this way - one thing is to know about something in theory (the Red Bull success), quite another thing is practice and trying to do it yourself. It applies anywhere in life.



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#252 PayasYouRace

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 12:57

I enjoyed when Kimi/Lewis/Alonso could challenge for the lead. Now I just stopped watching. Didn't even feel bad that I missed the USGP. 

 

Sounds like a failure from Lotus, Mercedes and Ferrari in bringing you what you want.



#253 sennafan24

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 14:29

 

I am a Lewis fan, and I feel that way as well.

 

Brundle said on SKY that Lewis is the type of guy who just wants to wake up and bomb around the track, I believe Vettel is the same after listening to his radio messages, some guys just want to push, push, push. Lets see who is the fastest when we are going our fastest, so to speak.

 

I would be lying if I said I do not prefer that type of racing, over the heavy emphasis on tyre management, as you said yourself it does not mean that smart drivers cannot use clever strategies. 

 

Again, I still enjoy F1, but I would be lying if I did not say that I enjoyed the regs more 2006-2008. I think they achieved a balance there. Overtaking? I believe the Irvine point, what more special, 2 overtakes in a race done on pure merit and skill, or 20 artificial overtakes due to DRS. Sadly, there is no going back to those days it would seem.



#254 JHSingo

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 15:55

Again, I still enjoy F1, but I would be lying if I did not say that I enjoyed the regs more 2006-2008. I think they achieved a balance there. Overtaking? I believe the Irvine point, what more special, 2 overtakes in a race done on pure merit and skill, or 20 artificial overtakes due to DRS. Sadly, there is no going back to those days it would seem.

 

The thing is, I don't think anybody is ever happy.

 

In the latter Bridgestone days, people complained that races were processional with little overtaking, and few differing strategies in a dry race.

 

So F1 brought in DRS to aid overtaking, and degradable tyres to introduce more strategy to the races. And people don't like that either, apparently.

 

I can't fault them for trying to please fans, but it is a pretty impossible task. It's all very well saying you enjoyed the 2006-2008 regulations now, but what did you think to them back then? There used to be some incredibly dull races - but I guess it is the rose tinted glasses mentality - everything was better back then, even if it actually wasn't.

 

I'd bet good money that if DRS was removed from the regs, and we went back to the days of rock solid tyres where every race was a one stopper, it wouldn't be long before people started moaning about how boring it was, and how they wished we could return to the regs of a few years ago.

 

Like I said, there is no pleasing some people. I think what fans need to do, before slagging F1 off as "broken", "boring" or whatever, is work out what they actually want. Do you want fewer overtakes with no DRS, and tyres that can last a race distance, or more overtaking and more strategy but with less durable tyres? Because it is quite clear that at the moment it is impossible to have both.



#255 sennafan24

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 16:02

The thing is, I don't think anybody is ever happy.

 

In the latter Bridgestone days, people complained that races were processional with little overtaking, and few differing strategies in a dry race.

 

So F1 brought in DRS to aid overtaking, and degradable tyres to introduce more strategy to the races. And people don't like that either, apparently.

 

I can't fault them for trying to please fans, but it is a pretty impossible task. It's all very well saying you enjoyed the 2006-2008 regulations now, but what did you think to them back then? There used to be some incredibly dull races - but I guess it is the rose tinted glasses mentality - everything was better back then, even if it actually wasn't.

 

I'd bet good money that if DRS was removed from the regs, and we went back to the days of rock solid tyres where every race was a one stopper, it wouldn't be long before people started moaning about how boring it was, and how they wished we could return to the regs of a few years ago.

 

Like I said, there is no pleasing some people. I think what fans need to do, before slagging F1 off as "broken", "boring" or whatever, is work out what they actually want. Do you want fewer overtakes with no DRS, and tyres that can last a race distance, or more overtaking and more strategy but with less durable tyres? Because it is quite clear that at the moment it is impossible to have both.

You have pretty much repeated my point earlier in the thread, about rose tinted glasses.

 

What did I think at the time? Well I was a casual fan in 2006-2008, but I enjoyed the racing for what it was. When I was watching heart stopping season finales, the rules and regulations are not really on my mind. Same rule applies to 2010 and 2012.

 

The past few years I have become more of committed fan, and revisited all the stuff from my childhood through season reviews, and watched stuff from the late 80's and early 90's that I was too young to appreciate. Thanks you SKY and Youtube!. I just judge on what I enjoyed more, and what I felt was the best type of racing. It is irrelevant anyway, as I still enjoy F1 present day as a whole.



#256 SenorSjon

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 16:08

We now also have dull races ;) But the difference is, most of the older dull races, people were trying to get 100% out of the car, not 70%. We have had some rule tweaking that prevented overtaking.

- rev limit @ 18k. BMW for instance was a higher revving engine.

- no engine development, except Renault in 2009. They are still harvesting from that one. What is the point of having no power difference between cars? You need it to overtake.

- two-compound rule to prevent Bridgestone from flying tires all over the world.

- Q on race fuel.

- race on Q-tires.

The 2009 spec cars were a ugly compromise. In stead of correcting their mistake, they only make more.



#257 MikeV1987

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 16:58

Not really, it is becoming to artificial. If there wasn't so many changes in the driver line ups next season I doubt I'd even watch.

 

Watching Kubica thrash the F108 was when I enjoyed F1 the most, ever since then I've been losing interest year by year.


Edited by MikeV1987, 21 November 2013 - 16:59.


#258 UnlockedPotential

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 21:40

IMO, a serious across the board rethink needs to be done in regards just about everything.  Car design, track design, driver aids, track locations, sponsorship and TV deals.

 

I find it alarming just how different F1 is to even 15 years ago.  It is almost unrecognisable to the sport I used to adore. 

 

 

I could do a 10 page essay on what needs to change, although for now I'll keep it simple.

 

1.  DRS needs to go and fast.  It is an abomination.

2.  The tyres need to be far more durable.

3.  The cars need far more power and the cars need to have less grip.

4.  The car need less gadgetry and more things that are in everyday cars.  For 90% of the people in the world, a manual gearbox is a part of everyday driving.  This should be no different in F1.

5.  A serious effort needs to be made to curtail budgets.  IMO, long life engines and gearboxes is the wrong way to go about it.  Resource restriction would be much, much better.

 

Agree on all points.

 

Watched F1 as a kid, then sort of lost F1 during the 2000's and started watching in 2007 again. In 2007 you saw the power of the cars, the cars were more on the edge and there were great overtakings. I think F1 can be a beautiful sport. There's drama, there's competition, there's innovation, there are fantastic racing cars, there are outspoken characters, pr robots, idiots and a set of the most fantastic drivers we've probably ever seen in F1. And even with all that going for the sport, I've still lost interest. Nowadays I can't really watch the cars tiptoing around saving tires (God, I hate that word), drivers letting other cars past without a fight or simply being passed by a push of the button. Most of the time the drivers aren't even tired after 1.5 hours of racing! I could go on a while about all the things wrong in F1, but suffice it to say I've totally lost interest in F1 again. It's artificial racing and it just doesn't do it anymore. I've hardly watched F1 this season. Maybe next season will be different.

 

So here are some points that could change as well:

6. Re-introduce the gravel trap instead of enormous amounts of tarmac

7. Return to Michelin tires (a guy can dream, can't he?)

8. Kick all the pay drivers, decide on talent alone

9. Remove the paywall and return to FTA (free to air)

10. Can't be bothered to think up further reasons. I'm that fed up with F1


Edited by UnlockedPotential, 21 November 2013 - 21:41.


#259 chipmcdonald

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 09:53

The thing is, I don't think anybody is ever happy.

 

In the latter Bridgestone days, people complained that races were processional with little overtaking, and few differing strategies in a dry race.

 

So F1 brought in DRS to aid overtaking, and degradable tyres to introduce more strategy to the races. And people don't like that either, apparently.

 

 

 

 Just because they changed things doesn't mean they made the right changes.

 

Nobody was asking for having to use 2 tire compounds, DRS, a ERS that wasn't automatic and could only be used on one part of the track, a lower rev limit, on and on.....



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#260 jimbox01

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 11:06

We now also have dull races ;) But the difference is, most of the older dull races, people were trying to get 100% out of the car, not 70%. We have had some rule tweaking that prevented overtaking.

- rev limit @ 18k. BMW for instance was a higher revving engine.

- no engine development, except Renault in 2009. They are still harvesting from that one. What is the point of having no power difference between cars? You need it to overtake.

- two-compound rule to prevent Bridgestone from flying tires all over the world.

- Q on race fuel.

- race on Q-tires.

The 2009 spec cars were a ugly compromise. In stead of correcting their mistake, they only make more.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the 2009 cars the result of work carried out by the Overtaking Working Group?

'09 was supposed to be about addressing some of the problems caused by turbulence, but all that went out the window with the double diffuser, and the OWG seemed to fade into nothing.

 

Pat Symonds said at the time:

"When we did that work we acknowledged that it was a very small investigation. Compared with what we teams do for ourselves, it was almost like a student project. But it was something that had never been done before and therefore the knowledge that came out of it was quite large. The science was in understanding the wake, how to control it and how to use it, but there was a little bit more philosophy behind it.

 

"We did feel that if we reduced the overall downforce then the wake effects would be smaller. It's a little bit poacher-turned-gamekeeper. Knowing how people would take a concept and develop it, we decided we really ought to be targeting about 50 per cent of the downforce. We all sort of realised that by the time we'd finished, 50 would probably be 15 per cent. To be honest, that's probably not far off where it is going to be. So I think we were quite pragmatic."

If CVC/Bernie were serious about improving the racing, not just tarting up the show, then maybe it would be an idea to provide the funds for some proper research into 'fixing' the problem, but then that would mean actually investing money into the sport.  And while they've got the cheque book out, perhaps they could sort some of the tracks out too - no point in having cars that can race on tracks that don't allow/promote racing.

 

Overall I still enjoy F1 and will continue to watch as many races live as I can (non Sky races), but I'm not sure what I'll do when it inevitably goes 100% to pay TV.  Don't think I'll stop being interested in F1, but a season pass for Brands Hatch is only £195 and I'd much rather spend my weekend sitting on South Bank with a picnic, watching BTCC, BSB, or even just some club racing, than £500 on watching often dull races on TV - £195 covers every event for the whole season!



#261 JHSingo

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 11:41

7. Return to Michelin tires (a guy can dream, can't he?)
 

 

Now there's a great idea.

 

world-class-formula-1-fiasco-at-indianap

 

 ;)



#262 tifosiMac

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 11:50

Now there's a great idea.

 

world-class-formula-1-fiasco-at-indianap

 

 ;)

Hopefully if there is another tyre war, we won't have tracks only giving information on revised surfaces to only one manufacturer.  :p

 

That race should never have taken place and the FIA had a lot to answer for I think.



#263 SenorSjon

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 12:34

The difference is those Michelins would have survived the Pirelli pace that day. ;) Pirelli is 70% all the time and Michelin only in the last corner.



#264 RubalSher

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 13:27

The racing is still boring, even with the Pirellis. The USGP for example did not have any excitement for the most part outside the DRS zone. Most of the races this year can be called boring if the Bridgestone era is the yardstick. I am not sure which audience is getting fooled into believing that we are any better than the Bridgestone era. Not only me, but many drivers have expressed concern at being asked to drive at 70% and that is a real shame for the sport.



#265 RB1

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 14:26

The thing is, I don't think anybody is ever happy.

 

In the latter Bridgestone days, people complained that races were processional with little overtaking, and few differing strategies in a dry race.

 

So F1 brought in DRS to aid overtaking, and degradable tyres to introduce more strategy to the races. And people don't like that either, apparently.

 

I can't fault them for trying to please fans, but it is a pretty impossible task. It's all very well saying you enjoyed the 2006-2008 regulations now, but what did you think to them back then? There used to be some incredibly dull races - but I guess it is the rose tinted glasses mentality - everything was better back then, even if it actually wasn't.

 

I'd bet good money that if DRS was removed from the regs, and we went back to the days of rock solid tyres where every race was a one stopper, it wouldn't be long before people started moaning about how boring it was, and how they wished we could return to the regs of a few years ago.

 

Like I said, there is no pleasing some people. I think what fans need to do, before slagging F1 off as "broken", "boring" or whatever, is work out what they actually want. Do you want fewer overtakes with no DRS, and tyres that can last a race distance, or more overtaking and more strategy but with less durable tyres? Because it is quite clear that at the moment it is impossible to have both.

 

I agree

 

I think F1 now is a lot better than it was from 2007-2010 when overtaking was far too difficult and you needed a huge top speed advantage. I think the problem was the introduction of the rev limiter, so that when the following car was in the slipstream, instead of getting a boost in speed, it would just hit the limiter and not be able to go any faster.

 

The DRS and tyres were needed in the past three seasons otherwise we would have terrible races like in 2010, yes the championship was good but the dry races were the worst i ever saw.

 

The problem this year is that all the teams gave up after the summer because Vettel and Red Bull already had a large advantage in the championships. 

 

Hopefully next year the cars will rev nowhere near the limiter and we can get back to racing without DRS and fragile tires in 2015.



#266 spacekid

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 16:16

I'll take your pretty pictures of 90s F1 cars, and raise you some onboard footage. Just the first random clips I came across on YouTube...





To me, one piece of footage makes driving an F1 car look so vibrant, exciting and energetic. I could literally watch that sort of thing for hours, the work in the cockpit is so frantic, the footage really captures what an energetic and violent environment an F1 cockpit is. I really feel that the driver is pushing like hell.

I know the laptime in the second clip is probably faster. But I am so much less excited watching it. A flick of the finger, turn in, flick the finger, straighten up, all smooth as silk. I'm not detracting from the skill involved, but the footage just doesn't convey to me that this is is difficult, skilful, dangerous thing to be doing.

#267 DS27

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 16:39

I could not agree more. I can't put my finger on why the old footage is so much more exciting but there's no doubt it is.



#268 UnlockedPotential

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 16:40

Now there's a great idea.

 

 

 ;)

Good one :lol:

 

Well, you decide what's better. One time USGP drama or this:

 

article-2351874-1A95F611000005DC-439_634

 

Anyway, the Michelins could be raced upon, the P0's can't be raced for more than a qualifying lap. I know what I prefer...



#269 senna da silva

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 16:47

I think HD and image stabilisation play a large part in the differences. However, I do wish the current cars had manual gearboxes and no power steering, separate the men from the boys.



#270 sopa

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 17:00

I think HD and image stabilisation play a large part in the differences. 

 

Yep. However, if we find that the old onboard footages make the feel of driving an F1 car come across much better, why aren't the cameras deliberately unstabilized nowadays? After all, F1 is entertainment and the way the sport is presented plays a large role in how we view it. It is not like the old onboard footage is unwatchable, messy or there is another problem that needs to be ironed out with modern technology. I'd like to think there is a way of making the feel of F1 come across better via TV work.



#271 SenorSjon

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 18:19

It isn't only the image stabilizing. The car Senna drove WOULD kill you when treated wrong and tried to kill you all other times. The Mercedes goes so smooth it is ridiculous. You can also see the difference in braking, shifting and sliding.


Edited by SenorSjon, 22 November 2013 - 18:23.


#272 sennafan24

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 18:39

I could not agree more. I can't put my finger on why the old footage is so much more exciting but there's no doubt it is.

My theory is that it looks like stereotypical racing more.

 

If you watch modern F1 it looks more like a person controlling a rocket ship, or a novelty car. Cars in the late 80's and 90's looked more like racing cars are stereotyped to look like. Cars now look like rocket ships, and with all the gadgets and controls, its harder for people to relate.

 

I started this conversation by calling rose-tinted glasses to a degree, but even I accept that I prefer elements of the old days. 


Edited by sennafan24, 22 November 2013 - 18:39.


#273 Fastcake

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 18:47

It isn't only the image stabilizing. The car Senna drove WOULD kill you when treated wrong and tried to kill you all other times. The Mercedes goes so smooth it is ridiculous. You can also see the difference in braking, shifting and sliding.

 

That's just progress. You're not going to get back to cars that look harder to drive without mandating a spec car from the early nineties.