44 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

Those of you watching the American GP yesterday will no doubt have spotted Adrian Sutil leaving to go for an early bath after making contact with the car of beloved Williams driver Pastor Maldonado. But, as is so often the case, the drivers don't agree about the cause of the collision:
 
Adrian Sutil: 
 "It was very shocking. You'd never believe something like that, but it happened. There was no reason to be so close. I was on my line and I didn't do anything different. I was staying straight with my steering wheel and to the left and right there was a lot of space. I don't understand why someone then hits you.There's like an emergency area around him, you have to give room for two cars, not just one."
 
Pastor Maldonado:
 "It was quite strange, I didn't expect that contact from Sutil. We were side by side and I was losing a little bit on the straight because he was moving past. He either didn't see me or was thinking he was already fully ahead. My front wing was there and we touched. I have nothing against him and it is very difficult to see when the cars are side by side. Sometimes it's happened to me in the past as well, it's nothing really important."
  
(All quotes from the Autosport article here: http://www.autosport....php/id/111432)
 
So who is right? Now, I didn't really get a chance to fully delve into looking at the post-race stuff from the Skypad and frankly, that incident looked kind of hard to see exactly what happened when they were showing the immediate replays so I don't really have an opinion. So, I throw it over to you guys. What happened? Is Sutil right and Maldonado moved unacceptably, causing an accident? Just one of those things, racing incident and Sutil is blaming the villain of the moment? Or was it Adrian's fault and Pastor is right? I honestly couldn't tell. Have at it!

 

Edited to add: now with poll because why not?

[Muppetmad]

I too don't think the camera angles were good enough to provide any conclusive evidence.

[seahawk]

I was wondering the same. The form of contact (front wing to rear tire) suggests it could have been more of Pastor´s fault, but we can not rule out that Sutil changed his line. But in the videos I saw, there was no strong direction change from Sutil visible.

[dau]

Adrian said it: "There was no reason to be so close." Too bad he doesn't understand that this applies to him as well.

[Jackmancer]

I thought it was all Sutil's fault, he's the one who makes the sudden move, halfway at the straight.

 

I hope both will be at the press conference next week and we'll get something like this

[dau]

I thought it was all Sutil's fault, he's the one who makes the sudden move, halfway at the straight.

 

I hope both will be at the press conference next week and we'll get something like this

But will Pastor bring pictures?

[selespeed]

100.000% sutils fault

[wj_gibson]

Sutil is the one who appears to be moving across to me. It's slightly complicated by the fact that the straight gently curves round to the right so it's a bit difficult to position the cars vis-a-vis that slight curving from the head-on shot. But I don't see Maldonado moving much.

 

(EDITS: awful spelling from me)

Edited by wj_gibson, 18 November 2013 - 09:36.

[jcbc3]

Sutil claims he held his wheel straight. That should be easily verifiable. If the track curves it will look as if he steers opposite. When we saw the incident, my gut reaction was to blame Sutil, but as Muppetmad says, there isn't enough evidence for us to make any meaningful conclusion.

 

So even if I have the highest disdain for Maldonado, I will not put this one on his rap sheet. I voted 4th option.

[PAGATRON]

Was there any onboard shots anywhere? I didn't see any on the BBC.

Edited by PAGATRON, 18 November 2013 - 10:23.

[Kac]

Was there any onboard shots anywhere? I didn't any on the BBC.

 

I was looking for this as well..Coukdn't find any replays on YT neither..

[ANF]

Was there any onboard shots anywhere? I didn't any on the BBC.

No, there weren't. Not from Sutil, not from Maldonado, not from any car close to them. I guess FOM wants to save the onboards for the season review.

[redreni]

It's one of those things that can happen if neither driver leaves a sensible margin. They're both to blame.

[Jon83]

Without better footage, impossible to say. Obviously neither will accept blame.

[Buttoneer]

My impression from the skypad analysis was that this was a completely avoidable accident but that no clear blame could be attributed.  Sutil came off worse, obviously, but I don't think either driver could really consider themselves blameless.  There was plenty of track width available so either one could have done something to avoid it.

[Mox]

My impression from the skypad analysis was that this was a completely avoidable accident but that no clear blame could be attributed.  Sutil came off worse, obviously, but I don't think either driver could really consider themselves blameless.  There was plenty of track width available so either one could have done something to avoid it.

That is probably what the Stewards were thinking. Both to blame, Sutil was out and Maldonado broke his front wing and ended up being forced to pit. No need to assess further blame and penalize, as both drivers suffered consequences.

But it should never have happened, no matter who was to blame. Going 2 wide on a straight at the widest part of the race track should never result in an accident.

[Seanspeed]

Not really gonna form an opinion on this til I get a better look at what happened.

[Nonesuch]

Hard to say who caused the collision. Both drivers have in the past had odd accidents, so I can see both having been the one to have misjudged this little battle for position.

Edited by Nonesuch, 18 November 2013 - 11:31.

[Baddoer]

Stewards did not even investigated it,  don't understand why it is brought up here.

[ForeverF1]

Stewards did not even investigated it,  don't understand why it is brought up here.

Before this forum was called "Racing Comments", it was "Readers Comments" and because there is an Autosport article here it is reasonable to have a discussion about it.

[Diablobb81]

Stewards did not even investigated it,  don't understand why it is brought up here.

 

Well , the first question should be why the stewards didn't investigate it.

[Tapz63]

Well , the first question should be why the stewards didn't investigate it.

Lol. Thats true. Im sure they would have determined it to be a racing incident but one would expect an investigation for an on track collision. They even had 10 minutes of safety car to do this.

Edited by Tapz63, 18 November 2013 - 13:24.

[PayasYouRace]

We never really got a good view of it so can't really say.

[Peat]

Track bears right, Sutil didn't turn with it, Pastor did. One of those things... Completely avoidable.

[Andrew Hope]

Sutil's fault from what I saw, but not fault in the sense someone needs to be punished but fault in the sense it's 2013 so you can't just call them accidents anymore and leave it at that.

[redreni]

Sutil's fault from what I saw, but not fault in the sense someone needs to be punished but fault in the sense it's 2013 so you can't just call them accidents anymore and leave it at that.

 

Well, it looks like you can in this case. If you wanted to investigate it you'd probably have to wait until after the race and call both drivers in to hear their side of the story. That would merely delay the stewards' time of departure from the circuit. If I were a steward I wouldn't have wanted to let my dinner get cold for the sake of this incident. "They're both idiots, leave them to it", I'd have thought.

[DS27]

Just one of those things. It certainly was avoidable by both drivers, but neither deserve punishment.

[Spillage]

Agree with DC's analysis at the time - Maldonado has previous, but for me Sutil veered into him. Sutil's fault.

[michaelmyers]

Does anyone have any on-board footage to link? Strange they didn't show that during the race. Without better footage it's pretty hard to say anything really.

[DanardiF1]

Maldonado's front wing was already visibly damaged before the incident happened, so I wonder if Pastor was in complete control of the car's movement? He was definitely driving full throttle oblivious to the damage (as his later radio message would confirm, complaining of a vibration when it was his front wing hanging off) and perhaps contact was made through a correction or something similar?

 

The camera angles are really bad for it, but I believe Sutil when he says he was steering straight, which on a curved 'straight' would seem like he was listing left. I also think Maldonado was committed to staying on the inside of Sutil which may have meant they were just eventually aiming at the same piece of tarmac, as Sutil's position on the track was a clear sign of defending his place in preparation for the braking zone.

 

I think it's a racing incident, but with the context of Maldonado driving a damaged car at full speed in a somewhat aggressive manner (ie. still trying to race another driver).

 

Sutil is right though... too many incidents happen around Maldonado for it to be coincidence or racing incidents all the time, and his Spa example was perfect.

Edited by DanardiF1, 18 November 2013 - 23:40.

[Mauseri]

To me it looked as if Sutil was about one meter ahead and Maldonado didn't follow Sutil who was gently squeezing him to the left.

 

Maldonado to blame in my opinion, Sutil made a legal racing line to put Maldonado in a dissadvantage, and that is not a good reason for the other driver to drive straight into his car. Except maybe in Pastor's mind.

Edited by Mauseri, 19 November 2013 - 01:27.

[fabr68]

I thought it was all Sutil's fault, he's the one who makes the sudden move, halfway at the straight.

 

I hope both will be at the press conference next week and we'll get something like this

 

Maldonado sure needs to bring the pictures.

[garagetinkerer]

I thought commentators laid the blame squarely with Sutil? Was watching early bits of the race as i was feeding my toddler lunch, so do forgive if i have things mixed up

 

O/T

Am i right in thinking that last 4 years have taken a toll on Alonso/ Kimi?

Edited by garagetinkerer, 19 November 2013 - 03:58.

[boldhakka]

 
Adrian Sutil: 
 "... I was staying straight with my steering wheel and to the left and right there was a lot of space..."
 
 

 

Yeah, the track was curving to the right. I think Sutil tried to go for the "blameless squeeze" with plausible deniability and a pre-prepped excuse like the one above. 

[charly0418]

Anyone have a video of a good analysis? Otherwise I dont see how people are choosing Sutil or Maldonado

[Clatter]

Well , the first question should be why the stewards didn't investigate it.

First lap incident.

 

Seems a common theme that screwing up on the first lap doesn't matter in the eyes of the stewards.

[ExFlagMan]

First lap incident.
 
Seems a common theme that screwing up on the first lap doesn't matter in the eyes of the stewards.

If they punished every contact that happens on the first lap the pit lane would be blocked by cars doing drive thru's.
As to those asking why the stewards 'did not investigate', on what basis do folks make that assumption - just because they did not put out a message stating that it was under investigation does not mean they did not consider the event - if they all regarded it as being a racing incident there is not need to do a full investigation - after all they normally only put out the message if they are thinking of a penalty and need to gather more evidence.

[Diablobb81]

First lap incident.

 

Seems a common theme that screwing up on the first lap doesn't matter in the eyes of the stewards.

 

While you are right in general,  in this case we have two guys fighting on a straight and we have contact between them. It doesn't seem that being in the first lap had anything to do with the contact (tires, brakes,other cars). It seems the only reason for the incident is one driver (i have no clue who) being dumb.

Edited by Diablobb81, 19 November 2013 - 11:04.

[Clatter]

If they punished every contact that happens on the first lap the pit lane would be blocked by cars doing drive thru's.
As to those asking why the stewards 'did not investigate', on what basis do folks make that assumption - just because they did not put out a message stating that it was under investigation does not mean they did not consider the event - if they all regarded it as being a racing incident there is not need to do a full investigation - after all they normally only put out the message if they are thinking of a penalty and need to gather more evidence.

Maybe, but there is nothing on the FIA website to suggest it was investigated either.

[wj_gibson]

O/T

Am i right in thinking that last 4 years have taken a toll on Alonso/ Kimi?

 

None of us is getting any younger.

[SonJR]

Really annoys me FOM have the footage of incidents like this (from both cars onboard cameras) but don't show it for some reason. Same thing happens with a lot of fighting/incidents further back in the field, like the starting incidents with the Marussia's and Giedo van der Garde this year. I really can't understand why they don't replay that during the race. Doesn't have to happen right away, but why show the big picture shot and then for some arbitrary reason not use the onboard shots?

[metz]

Since the damage was to Maldo's front wing, and the front wing damaged the rear wheel, we know that his front wheels were behind Sutil's rear wheels.

We also know that there was lots of room to the left and the right of Sutil.

Those that point out that AS didn't turn his wheel to follow the track, should know that the line is almost straight through these curves, and he was still in the middle of the track where the impact occurred.

Maldo was NOT squeezed.

[Frank Tuesday]

Since the damage was to Maldo's front wing, and the front wing damaged the rear wheel, we know that his front wheels were behind Sutil's rear wheels.

 

This is not a factual statement. It is possible for the front wing to touch the rear tyre while being beside one another.  There are more than one possible scenarios, and you ignore all but one.  Because of this, the rest of your post isn't even worth discussing as it is based on a fallacy.

 

If you want to supply other evidence to back up your claim other than faulty logic, I welcome it.

Edited by Frank Tuesday, 19 November 2013 - 17:06.

[GhostR]

Since the damage was to Maldo's front wing, and the front wing damaged the rear wheel, we know that his front wheels were behind Sutil's rear wheels.

We also know that there was lots of room to the left and the right of Sutil.

Those that point out that AS didn't turn his wheel to follow the track, should know that the line is almost straight through these curves, and he was still in the middle of the track where the impact occurred.

Maldo was NOT squeezed.

 

Pretty sure the damage to Maldo's front wing originally occurred well before the contact with Sutil (the exit of turn 1?). Definitely saw a Williams run into the back of another car as everyone scrambled through the bends on the first lap.

 

I'd put this one firmly on both drivers. Neither left the other enough space. It's a shame though that we don't have good footage. Memory tells me that Sutil jinked slightly (Ala Vettel/Webber a couple years back) as if the car had wobbled over a bump or something and that was enough to generate the contact.

[SealTheDiffuser]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ftEXcelL-uA

 

hard to tell who f...ed up,

 

but it looks like MAL was already alongside with a minimal length advantage...