132 replies to this topic

[David1976]

I have watched Formula One for 30 years now and never has it been dominated in quite such a fashion that Red Bull have achieved recently with Vettel.  Even in the Ferrari/Schumacher domination years we had more competition.

 

Is there any hope of Red Bull's domination coming to a close in 2014 with the new regulations or am I being a little optimistic?

 

 

[Slackbladder]

And the answer to this question is.....

 

 

We can but hope.

[fabr68]

If Pirelli changes the tires mid-season to help them again, there is little hope I would say

[Shiroo]

Actually everyone is saying in the paddock that wishing that they will not be a team to beat, is just wishful thinking. They will probably be still the team to beat, unless Renault made a major **** up with the engine.

I expect them to be the team to beat.

[EvanRainer]

If Pirelli changes the tires mid-season to help them again, there is little hope I would say

 

Pirelli changed the tyres mid season to fix the screwed up tyres that were a result of their original change over the winter done to HINDER Red Bull. No one was trying to help Red Bull, it was merely a failed attempt to keep the championship close.

 

@OP

 

If you have watched F1 for 30 years you have seen even bigger domination than this at least 3 other times.

Edited by EvanRainer, 18 November 2013 - 16:17.

[senna da silva]

I doubt Renault and Red Bull will get it wrong so its up Ferrari, Mercedes and the rest to get it right otherwise it'll be tough another period of domination. Hopefully some better tyres and the eradication of the blown diffuser will be enough to change things.

Edited by senna da silva, 18 November 2013 - 16:29.

[EvanRainer]

I really hope to see no team get it really wrong. With as many big teams as we have nowadays it would make for incredible competition.

[Ali_G]

Have to wondering how much resources Renault are throwing behind the new engine considering the likes of Mercedes and Ferrari will be supporting works entries. 

[Cyanide]

I see two scenarios:

 

1. They will dominate

2. They will dominate, but they'll have reliability issues occasionally

Edited by Cyanide, 18 November 2013 - 16:37.

[blackmme]

I have watched Formula One for 30 years now and never has it been dominated in quite such a fashion that Red Bull have achieved recently with Vettel.  Even in the Ferrari/Schumacher domination years we had more competition.

 

Is there any hope of Red Bull's domination coming to a close in 2014 with the new regulations or am I being a little optimistic?

 

It is going to be very interesting. Adrian Newey is on record (I can't find the quote) as saying that we are moving from an aero dominated era to an engine dominated era.  If Renault build a peach of a Turbo and it is combined with another excellent Red Bull Aero / Chassis combination then I would expect the dominance to continue (even expand perhaps) with only reliability issues to contend with as presumably Adrian will take things to the absolute limit in terms of packaging.  That's quite a lot of "If's"!

My hunch is that things are about to change.

 

Regards Mike

[swerved]

It would be nice if someone can step it and really push them, there's certainly more chance of that happening but if they only close the gap it wont be enough, such is Vettels talent, and his application of it, that the others will need to make very significant gains, unless of course Red Bull drop the ball, I'm guessing that winter testing will be more eagerly anticipated than usual.

[seahawk]

I have not much hope that the other teams will beat RBR. The simple reason is tha RBR are using the same tools to built their 2014 car and it seems their tools work, where as Ferrari, Merc and Macca had huge problems to get the up-dates for their cars to work. RBR has working tools and seems to have understood the tires. Only Lotus can say the same imho.

[fabr68]

Pirelli changed the tyres mid season to fix the screwed up tyres that were a result of their original change over the winter done to HINDER Red Bull. No one was trying to help Red Bull, it was merely a failed attempt to keep the championship close.

What screwed up tires? How many people died or got injured by those tires?

Did Red Bull got hindered by those tires at the start of the season? I mean they must been battling with Marussia for 20th spot to be "hindered"

Red Bull led a PR campaign against the original 2013 tire spec. They brilliantly misled the media and fans into a mass uproar which ended up with Pirelli changing the tires so it suits their car best. Even Pirelli said the change would gift the championships to Red Bull before making the change.

If Pirelli does this again in 2014, same domination should be expected.

Edited by fabr68, 18 November 2013 - 17:00.

[F1ultimate]

Red Bull have mastered tyre and torque management, which are two advantages that will take them very far next year. Only engine reliability will be able to stop them.

[bogi]

I hope there won't be any chance of rear wing blowing next year.

[bourbon]

I have watched Formula One for 30 years now and never has it been dominated in quite such a fashion that Red Bull have achieved recently with Vettel.  Even in the Ferrari/Schumacher domination years we had more competition.

 

Is there any hope of Red Bull's domination coming to a close in 2014 with the new regulations or am I being a little optimistic?

 

Really?  What was more competitive in the last 30 years than 2010?  And 2012 was super competitive with different winners in the various races and Seb behind 40 points at the summer break.  Your memory is perhaps adjusting the past.

[TheManAlive]

It would be far more palatable to watch this kind of domination if you had two drivers going at it in the same car. I would happily watch a two tier F1 with a stand out team and the rest (as it is now) if it was someone like Vettel alongside Alonso/Hamilton/Kimi and then a close second tier of other teams fighting it out for best of the rest (as we have now in F1). 

 

I think what has made the last 3 years so hard is that Webber (as much as I like him) has not offered a strong enough challenge to Vettel. If they had been going at each other tooth and nail race after race, like Senna and Prost or Alonso and Hamilton, then it could have been a few amazing seasons.

 

I think the other factor that has been frustrating over the last few years, is the FIA insistence on improving the 'show'. I hate that phrase and artificially creating circumstances that will appeal to the non-fan is crazy, no other sport would alienate its core demographic like that. The Pirelli situation is plain nuts - it has become a formula of who can drive the fastest on tyres that can only handle 90% pace. And the argument that it is the same for everyone is also silly and irrelevant. I want to see drivers pushing themselves and the cars to their limits - sure let the tyres only last 1/4 of a race thus forcing pit stops, but for that 1/4 of the race they should be able to push 100%. Its insane that they have created a formula with DRS/KERS that allows overtaking but have now provide tyres that make everyone drive slowly. People talk about the concern of going back to the boring Bridgestone era (even though there were some great years then). The problem with that era was not that the tyres lasted too long, but that cars could not overtake. DRS/KERS has fixed that.

 

Sorry, slightly off topic rant.  RB domination - quite probably. Best hope for salvation - Ricciardo turns out to be bloody fast and takes the fight to Vettel. 

Edited by TheManAlive, 18 November 2013 - 17:26.

[jrg19]

It wouldn't bother me that much as long as Daniel is winning races along side Sebastian. 

[garagetinkerer]

There's a lot of riff-raff (not pointing a finger at anyone...) which tags along with everything (well, most sports have so called "fans", and some proper fans)... May be, just may be, it will be enough to make the riff-raff leave the sport for the proper fans... may be, just may be, it is a good thing. May suck for the business side, but come on, greed has sometimes made things go to **** (2008 anyone?).

 

Domination? Freck 15 races won out of 16 total over a year, now that was domination... RBR aren't even close to that percentage.

 

It is funny that no one complained when McLaren/ Williams were dominating... When Ferrari dominated, it became an issue, and now when RBR is showing the class how to do it, again some people are throwing a hissy-fit (not directed at you OP, just  a rant about how things are these days...). Well i think it is upto the rest of the teams to get their sodden act together, and it is exactly the same opinion i held while they fiddled with rules to pacify "fans" and slow down Ferrari some years ago.Just plain daft, if you ask me. I think we're privileged to have witnessed the rise of another great of F1. We could be heard complaining a few years ago about how it was epic in 70's-90's... how there were legends and giants of F1 walking the planet... What do we do as soon as one comes along? We rant... Why? Simples, in most cases, it is just the matter of the driver not being who we thought would do all this winning! Most of them are just plain hurting (you know where!)

 

to OP... if you've watched for 30 years, you know that this will end too. So it is imperative that you soak the moment for what it is, as it may be a long time before someone will make history.

Edited by garagetinkerer, 18 November 2013 - 18:58.

[vista]

To answer OP's question one has to know where their current 0.7-1 sec. advantage comes from and if it can be translated into next year and how much. Many theories are given to explain their pace-advantage and I guess some of it is related to exploiting exhaust gasses and maybe off-throttle blowing (all gone next year). If their advantage lies in clever engine mapping and torque management then it would probably continue (unless other teams can do the same with the new engines). Or maybe their advantage lies in the rake of the car and clever flexi t-tray; that can continue next year as well. Of course, the tyres will change and that could influence the aerodynamics on the cars. 

 

All this is just my guesses and I have read it on the internet as there has been multiple theories on Red Bulls advantage.

[Gorma]

I have watched Formula One for 30 years now and never has it been dominated in quite such a fashion that Red Bull have achieved recently with Vettel.  Even in the Ferrari/Schumacher domination years we had more competition.

 

Is there any hope of Red Bull's domination coming to a close in 2014 with the new regulations or am I being a little optimistic?

Between 2000 and 2004 Ferrari won close to 60 races out of 85 with over 20 of them being 1-2. Then there is the William domination of the 90s and McLaren of the 80s.  Other teams were lucky to win one or two races in a season, they couldn't even get the number two spot on the podium unless one of the winning cars ran into trouble or retired. Red Bull hasn't even come close to that.

 

May I suggest a hefty dose of omega 3s... they should help with memory.

[st99]

What screwed up tires? How many people died or got injured by those tires?

Did Red Bull got hindered by those tires at the start of the season? I mean they must been battling with Marussia for 20th spot to be "hindered"

Red Bull led a PR campaign against the original 2013 tire spec. They brilliantly misled the media and fans into a mass uproar which ended up with Pirelli changing the tires so it suits their car best. Even Pirelli said the change would gift the championships to Red Bull before making the change.

If Pirelli does this again in 2014, same domination should be expected.

 

Of course RB misled the media and fans into thinking that the tyres had blown up in four different cars in Silverstone, that was all an act 

Even Alonso agreed then that the tyres should be changed http://www.f1fanatic...ave-injured-me/

 

Back on topic, the domination might come to an end next year, just like Ferrari and McLaren domination ended in 2009 with the change of rules, but I'm sure they will stay there until the parent company decides that they don't want to invest in F1 anymore (and even then I'm sure they could find sponsors to continue)

[dau]

I have watched Formula One for 30 years now and never has it been dominated in quite such a fashion that Red Bull have achieved recently with Vettel.  Even in the Ferrari/Schumacher domination years we had more competition.

 

Is there any hope of Red Bull's domination coming to a close in 2014 with the new regulations or am I being a little optimistic?

I keep reading about how we've never had domination like Red Bull's before. So here are the points differences between first and second in WDC and WCC for the last 30 years:

 

 

[vista]

Of course RB misled the media and fans into thinking that the tyres had blown up in four different cars in Silverstone, that was all an act 

Even Alonso agreed then that the tyres should be changed http://www.f1fanatic...ave-injured-me/

 

Back on topic, the domination might come to an end next year, just like Ferrari and McLaren domination ended in 2009 with the change of rules, but I'm sure they will stay there until the parent company decides that they don't want to invest in F1 anymore (and even then I'm sure they could find sponsors to continue)

 

The tyres were rubbish because Pirelli didn't do their job well enough in the first place. So their was a safety concern later on in the season with tyre explosions. What is pathetic is that Red Bull claim they were arguing for harder tyres because of safety concerns but they never said a word about safety until the first blow up. But they claim that it was all about safety all along. In the start of the season they just wanted harder tyres so they could use all their downforce and Marko said they should do 10-15 pit stops to exploit their pace advantage etc. etc. 

 

That is just hypocritical and it shows how they do politics in F1 - and succeeds in it.  

Edited by vista, 18 November 2013 - 19:54.

[BillBald]

To answer OP's question one has to know where their current 0.7-1 sec. advantage comes from and if it can be translated into next year and how much. Many theories are given to explain their pace-advantage and I guess some of it is related to exploiting exhaust gasses and maybe off-throttle blowing (all gone next year). If their advantage lies in clever engine mapping and torque management then it would probably continue (unless other teams can do the same with the new engines). Or maybe their advantage lies in the rake of the car and clever flexi t-tray; that can continue next year as well. Of course, the tyres will change and that could influence the aerodynamics on the cars. 

 

All this is just my guesses and I have read it on the internet as there has been multiple theories on Red Bulls advantage.

 

If they can't seal the diffuser with exhaust gasses, I doubt whether they can run as much rake.

 

And I'd be surprised if there are any restrictions on engine mapping.

[Infinityl]

Really?  What was more competitive in the last 30 years than 2010?  And 2012 was super competitive with different winners in the various races and Seb behind 40 points at the summer break.  Your memory is perhaps adjusting the past.

 

2012 supercompetitive?

 

OMG, Vettel should have won easily 8 last races, just like he has done this year. And he never should had been 40 points behind Alonso, because he never had a worse car than Fernando. 

The only supercompetitive thing in 2012 was Fernando Alonso, who in normal would have been 5th or 6th, 100 points behind Vettel.

[vista]

2012 supercompetitive?

 

OMG, Vettel should have won easily 8 last races, just like he has done this year. And he never should had been 40 points behind Alonso, because he never had a worse car than Fernando. 

The only supercompetitive thing in 2012 was Fernando Alonso, who in normal would have been 5th or 6th, 100 points behind Vettel.

 

The point is that there were excitement unlike this year. But if we were talking about a technical continuous advantage (domination) then you have a point. Red Bull have easily had the best car for 4 years now and if Vettel had driven better in 2012 - the first half particularly - then it would have been a dominant year. 

[Kingshark]

Mercedes will beat Red Bull in 2014.

You can mark this comment for within 12 months time.

[sv401]

 

OMG, Vettel should have won easily 8 last races, just like he has done this year. And he never should had been 40 points behind Alonso, because he never had a worse car than Fernando. 

 

Of course, he would not have been 40 points behind without 2 retirements which gifted the Spaniard an advantage of 44 (12 + 32) points. Which also means that Alonso did have a significantly better car at least in Valencia, so your statement in bold is false.

[sv401]

Mercedes will beat Red Bull in 2014. Hamilton will beat Vettel and Ricciardo in 2014, because the Red Bull will be less dominant than usual.

 

Fixed for political correctness on the forums. Everyone knows that Alonso and Hamilton never have the best car.

[Baddoer]

Yes, please. We had not enough Vettel. More Vettel "i love you" required.

[1Devil1]

If Pirelli changes the tires mid-season to help them again, there is little hope I would say

 

Alonso is it you?

[Kingshark]

Fixed for political correctness on the forums. Everyone knows that Alonso and Hamilton never have the best car.

 

Alonso himself said that his Renault cars in 2005 and 2006 were the best on the grid, so I would not go that far.

 

I don't believe that Hamilton can beat Vettel on current form without some marginal car advantage, at least. However, I do believe that Mercedes will be the new force to reckon with in 2014. Brawn himself is very excited about Mercedes' prospect in 2014. Plus, if the rumors are true, Mercedes have a significant power advantage over Ferrari and Renault, while being quite fuel efficient in the process.

 

Mercedes will overhaul Red Bull in 2014. Anyone can mark my words on that.

Edited by Kingshark, 18 November 2013 - 23:08.

[HoldenRT]

If Pirelli changes the tires mid-season to help them again, there is little hope I would say

 

The tyre failures were a conspiracy and an excuse to be able to change the tyres to help Redbull?

[HoldenRT]

What screwed up tires? How many people died or got injured by those tires?

Did Red Bull got hindered by those tires at the start of the season? I mean they must been battling with Marussia for 20th spot to be "hindered"

Red Bull led a PR campaign against the original 2013 tire spec. They brilliantly misled the media and fans into a mass uproar which ended up with Pirelli changing the tires so it suits their car best. Even Pirelli said the change would gift the championships to Red Bull before making the change.

If Pirelli does this again in 2014, same domination should be expected.

 

If I'd have seen this, I wouldn't have bothered replying above.

[sv401]

 

Plus, if the rumors are true, Mercedes have a significant power advantage over Ferrari and Renault, while being quite fuel efficient in the process.

 

That is quite possible, although in that case it is more accurate to say they are overhauling Renault.

[HoldenRT]

The reset button is being hit so it is impossible to say.

 

From the start of 2009.. Redbull had the best grasp of the new regulations.  Brawns and a few others had a trick device and once this was adapted to all cars it became clear that Redbull was the car to beat.  From there, there's been lots of ups and downs, exhaust blowing, and all the other things.. but the basic fact remains that Newey was the only who best came to grips with the new regulations.  Ferrari and Renault's first attempts were HORRIBLE.  The fat boxy noses..

 

Slowly all the cars started to become Redbull clones but no one can copy something as good as someone who designed it himself and understands all the concepts.  No one can write a Beatles song better than the Beatles etc etc.

 

Now with the reset.. Newey has to do it all over again.  And this time, it's less about aero since it's the engines that are the major change.  2009 gave Newey the chance to be in this position in the first place, but now he has to do it all over again.  In his favour this time.. is the confidence, team morale, and funding and success of the last 4-5 years.  However.. all of that means nothing without a good design and a good car.

 

The first half of next season will probably be really up and down and unpredictable.. and it might take a while until everything settles down.  Every top team has a fresh chance, and nothing is assured that Redbull will be as strong as they were from 2009-2013.  However.. if there is one person who you would want anytime there is a regulation change.. it'd be Newey.  That's how Redbull came into this position in the first place.  But it doesn't assure success, it just tips the odds more in his favour.  Ferrari, Merc or McLaren could be strong.  And again, I don't mean trick devices but the fundamental core concept of the car.. that platform, that all future versions and updates will be based on.

[Dan333SP]

I keep reading about how we've never had domination like Red Bull's before. So here are the points differences between first and second in WDC and WCC for the last 30 years:

 

 

Great graph! 2013 RBR is clearly less dominant than the 2001, 2002, and 2004 Ferraris, and most certainly the 1988 Mclaren. I think the =span of very competitive seasons between 2005 and 2010 spoiled many of the newer viewers of the sport, who assumed that every season should come down to the final race. If that chart tells us anything, though, it is that we will at some point return to a close fight for the WCC. Will it be next year? I hope so, but I will doubt it until Vettel finds himself knocked out in Q2 with no technical issues. 

[George Costanza]

We had some dominant periods before. I thought Williams 1996-1997 was more dominant than this season. And Ferrari of 2002-2004 was like this.

 

Red Bull 2009 is like Williams from 1992-1997. 

 

1998 was more of first half McLaren dominaion.... 2nd half Ferrari caught up.

Edited by George Costanza, 18 November 2013 - 23:45.

[Kelateboy]

I keep reading about how we've never had domination like Red Bull's before. So here are the points differences between first and second in WDC and WCC for the last 30 years:

 

 

 

No facts into the discussion, please.

 

8 straight wins by a single driver in a single season - that is unheard of in the 63 year history of F1. That is an indisputable evidence. 

[George Costanza]

 

Alonso himself said that his Renault cars in 2005 and 2006 were the best on the grid, so I would not go that far.

 

I don't believe that Hamilton can beat Vettel on current form without some marginal car advantage, at least. However, I do believe that Mercedes will be the new force to reckon with in 2014. Brawn himself is very excited about Mercedes' prospect in 2014. Plus, if the rumors are true, Mercedes have a significant power advantage over Ferrari and Renault, while being quite fuel efficient in the process.

 

Mercedes will overhaul Red Bull in 2014. Anyone can mark my words on that.

 

 

 

I do wish Michael was racing in 2014, but that's another topic.

 

And yes, I do think Lewis can beat Seb all things considered equal.

Edited by George Costanza, 18 November 2013 - 23:47.

[rhukkas]

The RBR has a good .5 mechanical/aero advantage over the rest of the field. Even if Renault bring an average engine, there'll still be there or there abouts. Don't expect any big changes.

[George Costanza]

No facts into the discussion, please.

 

8 straight wins by a single driver in a single season - that is unheard of in the 63 year history of F1. That is an indisputable evidence. 

 

I reckon back in 1992, Nigel Mansell could have won all races in a row. After all, he got 14 pole positions (!)  He would have gotten 16 pole positions in a row.

Edited by George Costanza, 18 November 2013 - 23:51.

[Knot]

Red Bull have mastered tyre and torque management, which are two advantages that will take them very far next year. Only engine reliability will be able to stop them.

 

100%

[Spillage]

As other posters have pointed out, the problem is overstated. Red Bull were not dominant in either 2010 or 2012. Nor, in fact, were they dominant at the start of 2013. 2002 and 2004 were both more dominant seasons than this one. Red Bull is in the ascendancy, but one day it will end; just as Williams' did, just as Mclaren's did and just as Ferrari's did.

[Kelateboy]

Everything is in Renault Sports hand.

 

Get the power unit right, and off you go to another era of RBR V6 turbo domination. Get the power unit wrong, RBR will be fighting for scraps.

[George Costanza]

As other posters have pointed out, the problem is overstated. Red Bull were not dominant in either 2010 or 2012. Nor, in fact, were they dominant at the start of 2013. 2002 and 2004 were both more dominant seasons than this one. Red Bull is in the ascendancy, but one day it will end; just as Williams' did, just as Mclaren's did and just as Ferrari's did.

 

Yes. 2002 and 2004 takes the cake.... It was over by the first two laps once Michael got ahead. Sort of like Seb in 2011 to be honest. The RB7 was a little bit better than the RB9. It's just that Seb is doing a better job this season than in 2011.

 

Last season was just an accident away from having Fernando Alonso as champion.

Edited by George Costanza, 18 November 2013 - 23:55.

[George Costanza]

It's not just Seb, he's a remarkable driver, but if you would put Fernnado, Kimi or Lewis (The Big 4 of F1 today), it would be simliar results.

 

Remember Fernando's first half of 2006 until Canadian GP?  He was looking absolutely unstoppable. Until Ferrari was able to sort their car out (of course, the Mass Damper Ban helped in a way).

Edited by George Costanza, 19 November 2013 - 00:01.

[Clatter]

Of course, he would not have been 40 points behind without 2 retirements which gifted the Spaniard an advantage of 44 (12 + 32) points. Which also means that Alonso did have a significantly better car at least in Valencia, so your statement in bold is false.

As Alonso also had 2 retirements gifting 43 points to Vettel I think it's fair to say the retirements were cancelled out.

[DanardiF1]

Next year's regs take away a lot of what is commonly thought to be where Red Bull derives it's biggest advantage (and consequently, Vettel's seeing as his driving style is so in tune with the way these current cars work), and that's exhaust blowing and it's effect all over the car.

 

The vortices we saw in practice this weekend are a great example. The RB9's was so clean and directed because in this particular regulation set Newey and his team have (with a LOT of R&D money of course, more than any other team including Ferrari) managed to get the car's underfloor to be working as almost virtual ground effect by getting every part of the car to work towards one aim: getting air to the diffuser. It's something they've had worked out since they debuted the major update to the RB5 at Silverstone in 2009 and blew the field away. That car had their version of the double diffuser, but used their already fitted low exhaust outlets to help drive the top elements of both the beam wing and the upper part of the diffuser. It was a compromised double diffuser design, but they made up for it by using hot exhaust gases that no other team was using. Everything since has been based around that concept, something all the other team's seem to have forgotten each year as they look for another panacea (pullrod front suspension, 'octopus' exhaust, passive DRS) to their fundamental design concept issues.

 

As for next year... the car won't run so much rake (because whilst the downforce advantage has negated it currently, it's not a good mechanical setup), the front wing will have a different flow pattern (will outwash still be the best option or will inwash endplates come back?), and the hot exhaust gases will exit as far back as possible. I can forsee some teams trying to direct this exhaust's flow towards the diffuser, but it will require some major compromises in order to do it, so the benefits would probably be outweighed. The cars will need to be a lot less draggy as well, something Red Bull has made seemingly big strides in this year, but it has still taken them the best part of 3 years to work out, so there is hope for the other teams there.

 

The biggest factor is how this all will affect Vettel's style. His able right foot has allowed him to get some exhaust blowing advantages in corners, but will be a redundant style as of next year when efficiency of input and no EBD will mean that his throttle modulation will most likely only result in instability and wasted fuel. It's how or if he adapts that will see his form either continue or go through a dodgy patch, in a similar way to how Hamilton has had to grapple with driving in a way mostly alien to his natural style, meaning his sword has been dulled since 2011 IMO. Vettel's invincibility is somewhat circumstancial with these rules and the benefit of having his technical staff so perfectly realise the needs of driver and car, and someone else may be better suited to what comes next. He'll always be a great driver, but whether he ever is the same driver that he has been these last few seasons will remain to be seen.