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Button v Perez 2013 (part II)


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#101 trogggy

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 17:06

I don't think you needed the 'although' there, we seem to be in agreement.



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#102 Fox1

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 17:40

You're in for a hard time here if you just keep posting generalisations and dross, without taking the trouble to go into any specifics at all.

It's clear - at least to me - that Mclaren are looking for a better driver than JB.  That's what they hoped Perez was - it's what they hope Magnussen will be, it's what they believe Alonso already is.  Drivers better than JB, though, are not exactly thick on the ground.  If they can find / hire a better one then they will - that doesn't make Button rubbish.  Why is that such a difficult thing to understand?

First of all you're not giving me a hard time. I just think you have blinders on when it comes to JB. 

 

Second of all; maybe your should read the post to which I was responding before responding with usual retort about not providing "specifics and facts" that it seems only people that think as you do seem to be able to provide.

 

Third of all, I was referring to the Mark Hughes article which wrapped up by mentioning the following:

 

"In many ways its disappointment in Perez says more about its attitude towards Button than towards him. Had Perez been level-pegging in qualifying with Hamilton in the other McLaren over the season, one senses the team would have been quite satisfied. Button's inconsistent qualifying form and Perez's mere matching of that form has left McLaren feeling its car has been under-exploited."

 

I find it funny that you're willing to accept that McLaren are looking for a "better driver than JB" but my suggestion that JB is not a good benchmark to judge performance against gets the fangs and claws out.

 

And last of all, I NEVER said anything about JB being "rubbish" so don't put words in my mouth and then use those words to argue against me as though you've on a higher ground.  



#103 Buttoneer

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 17:45

 

I find it funny that you're willing to accept that McLaren are looking for a "better driver than JB" but my suggestion that JB is not a good benchmark to judge performance against gets the fangs and claws out.

 

 

It shouldn't be that surprising because there's quite a gulf between those two positions.



#104 study

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 17:48

You're in for a hard time here if you just keep posting generalisations and dross, without taking the trouble to go into any specifics at all.

 

I don't understand why this is only a requirement in a Button thread and also seems to only Apply to the button half of the thread?

And facts only seem to apply when favouring Button.

Differing opinions go on in the other drivers threads, many of it misplaced, but only in here are you required to justify it, plus as why the special terms for Button


Edited by study, 22 November 2013 - 17:55.


#105 study

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 17:52

It shouldn't be that surprising because there's quite a gulf between those two positions.

 

They both come from the same writer, so its accept the favourable one, reject the one against Button?



#106 William Hunt

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 18:00

http://www.grandprix...ns/ns26886.html



#107 ThadGreen

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 18:02

Button has a contract to drive for McLaren next year right? During the lead up to this being made public Button said that he would be driving for McLaren next year however it was the length of the contract which was in question, or words to that effect. Does anyone know who wanted the 1 year contract Button or McLaren? 



#108 trogggy

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 18:19

I don't understand why this is only a requirement in a Button thread and also seems to only Apply to the button half of the thread?

And facts only seem to apply when favouring Button.

Differing opinions go on in the other drivers threads, many of it misplaced, but only in here are you required to justify it, plus as why the special terms for Button

Posting specifics rather than generalisations isn't a requirement.  You're free to post any old tosh.



#109 trogggy

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 18:25


I find it funny that you're willing to accept that McLaren are looking for a "better driver than JB" but my suggestion that JB is not a good benchmark to judge performance against gets the fangs and claws out.

 

Doesn't surprise me in the least tbh.



#110 Nemo1965

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 19:06

There two positions in this thread towards Button that are not as far apart as people think.

 

Look at it this way. People like Brawn, Whitmarsh know Button is a very, very good driver. He was only slightly beaten by Hamilton over three years (according to me, you could argue they were equal). In qualifying speed Button is considered slightly behind, AFAIK, Hamilton and Vettel and Alonso. In race-craft is just as good as anyone in F1 right now, and better than most (better than Webber, better than Hamilton, better than Massa, only Vettel I judge a little bit better).

 

Sooooh... if you find a young driver who equals or even beats Button.. you have a star of the future, right? Because then you got someone who is as good as Hamilton, Vettel in qualifying, and as good in races as bloody Jenson Button.

 

If that was the standard Checo Perez was measured to, we can say McLaren took the right decision to try a new driver. 


Edited by Nemo1965, 22 November 2013 - 19:07.


#111 Ricardo F1

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 20:04

Button has a contract to drive for McLaren next year right? During the lead up to this being made public Button said that he would be driving for McLaren next year however it was the length of the contract which was in question, or words to that effect. Does anyone know who wanted the 1 year contract Button or McLaren? 

I'd be pretty damn sure it would be McLaren given their position for 2015.  



#112 ThadGreen

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 20:44

There two positions in this thread towards Button that are not as far apart as people think.

 

Look at it this way. People like Brawn, Whitmarsh know Button is a very, very good driver. He was only slightly beaten by Hamilton over three years (according to me, you could argue they were equal). In qualifying speed Button is considered slightly behind, AFAIK, Hamilton and Vettel and Alonso. In race-craft is just as good as anyone in F1 right now, and better than most (better than Webber, better than Hamilton, better than Massa, only Vettel I judge a little bit better).

 

Sooooh... if you find a young driver who equals or even beats Button.. you have a star of the future, right? Because then you got someone who is as good as Hamilton, Vettel in qualifying, and as good in races as bloody Jenson Button.

 

If that was the standard Checo Perez was measured to, we can say McLaren took the right decision to try a new driver. 

 

Really?



#113 ThadGreen

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 20:53

I'd be pretty damn sure it would be McLaren given their position for 2015.  

 

Maybe, these were the only links I could find which really don't say definitely eitherr way.

 

 

http://www.mirror.co...ren-one-2366272

 

http://www1.skysport.../24180/8929692/

 

http://www.telegraph...season-too.html



#114 Ricardo F1

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 21:58

Logic would suggest that beyond anything else with a new engine partner coming in for 2015 McLaren have to keep their options open.  You'd have to think Button would be the one pushing for at least a second year on the deal as he probably knows as well as anyone that McLaren next year are likely to be transitioning.  



#115 enrm6

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 22:01

Maybe, these were the only links I could find which really don't say definitely eitherr way.
 
 
http://www.mirror.co...ren-one-2366272
 
http://www1.skysport.../24180/8929692/
 
http://www.telegraph...season-too.html


For some time it has appeared Button has been anti long term contracts, he likes to keep his options open as I think he knows his opportunities are decreasing and he doesn't want to be stuck with a team going nowhere. In addition we have had from McLaren employees statements about how Button could have a job for life etc.

I would therefore suggest that it's Button that wants to keep his options open, see how it goes with McLaren and be free to explore options with RedBull or Ferrari if is doesn't go well. I also believe Jenson's stock is very high. I think that after the primary, #1 drivers if you like, the next most sought after are those that can work with the the #1s without causing a fall out and can be nearly as fast and consistent point collectors. These are few and far between. I think this is why RedBull hung onto Webber, and Ferrari Massa, and why Button would, be a good catch if the Ferrari pairing doesn't work out or if Ricciardo isn't up to it.

#116 Lights

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 22:04

Logic would suggest that beyond anything else with a new engine partner coming in for 2015 McLaren have to keep their options open.  You'd have to think Button would be the one pushing for at least a second year on the deal as he probably knows as well as anyone that McLaren next year are likely to be transitioning.  

 

Reality suggests differently: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/107574

 

Neale told Jenson he has a job for life. Jenson pushed to keep some freedom, that's why it took some time to finalize the deal.



#117 Ricardo F1

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 22:43

Reality suggests differently: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/107574

 

Neale told Jenson he has a job for life. Jenson pushed to keep some freedom, that's why it took some time to finalize the deal.

There's nothing in that article that suggests that at all ; purely from a commercial standpoint McLaren would be nuts to tie down 2015.  I do think Neale/McLaren want Button as an ambassador just as Coulthard is for Red Bull - but let's not forget Jenson will also be 35 in 2015.  If the McLaren Honda thing goes well then both will want a big name in the prime seat for 2015, on current form that would suggest they'd approach Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton, with Magnussen as the Champion in waiting behind them.

 

Also if you look at the articles in the lead up to Jenson being signed it was pretty clear it was McLaren taking their sweet time about it.


Edited by Ricardo F1, 22 November 2013 - 22:45.


#118 Lights

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 23:09

There's nothing in that article that suggests that at all ; purely from a commercial standpoint McLaren would be nuts to tie down 2015.  I do think Neale/McLaren want Button as an ambassador just as Coulthard is for Red Bull - but let's not forget Jenson will also be 35 in 2015.  If the McLaren Honda thing goes well then both will want a big name in the prime seat for 2015, on current form that would suggest they'd approach Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton, with Magnussen as the Champion in waiting behind them.

 

Also if you look at the articles in the lead up to Jenson being signed it was pretty clear it was McLaren taking their sweet time about it.

 

"if the Mclaren Honda thing goes well', and Vettel, Alonso or Hamilton are eager to blindly jump into that risk? McLaren and Honda are big names, but that does not guarantee a top car.

 

The article suggests more than you realize. Merely an example anyway, which I at least give when making claims. 

 

Btw, Jenson 'signing' for 2014 was just a contract option. I'm sure Jenson was highly affected emotionally by McLaren 'taking their sweet time about it' while they were trying to stay in the shadows because of Sergio's situation.



#119 Buttoneer

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 01:33

They both come from the same writer, so its accept the favourable one, reject the one against Button?


Sure, if that's what you want to do, why not?

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#120 BillBald

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 01:34

It really comes down to who has the power.

 

McLaren reduced their power to attract top drivers by producing a poor car, and then by continuing to mess up when operating it in races.

 

Jenson will reduce his power to attract offers from top teams if he doesn't stop messing up on the first lap.

 

If Jenson does the best job he can next year, he will actually make McLaren more attractive to Alonso or others, but he will also make himself more attractive to McLaren, so in that case they won't be thinking of replacing him.


Edited by BillBald, 23 November 2013 - 01:38.


#121 coppilcus

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 15:31

... and hopefully for the team, they won't be talking rubbish about magnussen or button at the third race do 2014 if the car can't finish a bluddy race; or like it is happening right now, when ew are talking about the team that didn't want magnussen (of course that misterious team couldn't have all the simulator data...) and stepped backed from a deal signed by the shaking of hands, and do not talk about the worst car McLaren has produced in history.

...

Oh my, let's hope they're keeping the rubber for the race.... It doesn't look good at all!

#122 trogggy

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 15:42


I find it funny that you're willing to accept that McLaren are looking for a "better driver than JB" but my suggestion that JB is not a good benchmark to judge performance against gets the fangs and claws out.

Looks like I got in just before Martin Whitmarsh:

His (SP's) mission was to come here and compete and beat Jenson. Jenson is a tremendous benchmark - not an easy one to beat...

 

Uncannily similar to what I wrote yesterday, eh?  Of course that must mean I'm wrong 'cos Whitmarsh, unlike you, knows very little about the goings-on within Mclaren.

http://www.formula1....3/11/15292.html



#123 Slartibartfast

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 16:38

Maybe the internet should be regulated to only allow criticism of McLaren for screw-ups that only affect JB to be permitted.

What would the Internet do with all the suddenly spare bandwidth?

I don't understand why this is only a requirement in a Button thread and also seems to only Apply to the button half of the thread?
And facts only seem to apply when favouring Button.
Differing opinions go on in the other drivers threads, many of it misplaced, but only in here are you required to justify it, plus as why the special terms for Button

I don't understand why you appear to have a problem with the concept of justifying a claim. It seems to me that if what you say is true, then it is the other driver threads that should change. But then you haven't supported your claim with evidence, so maybe I shouldn't believe you?

#124 Lazy

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 16:41

horrible middle sector



#125 Lazy

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 16:45

maybe some fp running might have helped :/



#126 selespeed

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 16:47

whitmarsh hoping for rain during fp3...guess it didn't help the shitbox.



#127 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 16:47

Perez just showed why qualifying scores don't matter. He'll probably need a gearbox change now and start at the back, all because he tried too hard.



#128 selespeed

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 16:55

Perez just showed why qualifying scores don't matter. He'll probably need a gearbox change now and start at the back, all because he tried too hard.

 

he was faster before the crash...and button had changed to new inters for last laps...



#129 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 16:58

he was faster before the crash...and button had changed to new inters for last laps...

 

New inters mean jack if there's too much water.



#130 Lazy

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 16:58

How can they be 1.5 secs off the pace in one sector?



#131 Dalton007

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 17:02

Jenson just said that, in hindsight, running in fp3 would have helped them for quail. Terrible performance, though. 



#132 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 17:03

Jenson just said that, in hindsight, running in fp3 would have helped them for quail. Terrible performance, though. 

 

Yeah slipping back in q2 seems like they didn't get the pressures right for the changing conditions, something that running in FP3 could've helped with.



#133 Lights

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 17:43

Or Jenson would've done great in FP3 to now say: "I don't know what happened, this morning the car felt great". We'll never know.



#134 ElDictatore

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 17:45

Or Jenson would've done great in FP3 to now say: "I don't know what happened, this morning the car felt great". We'll never know.

 

Just really, this freaking season. However conditions change and however what they try, it's always for the worse. Glad it's over tommorow!



#135 sennafan24

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:19

So, I am a right in thinking that Perez won the qualifying battle this year, 10-9. 



#136 charly0418

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:22

So, I am a right in thinking that Perez won the qualifying battle this year, 10-9. 

 

yeah, and he gave some compliments to Jenson as well http://www1.skysport...ng-qualy-battle



#137 sennafan24

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:30

yeah, and he gave some compliments to Jenson as well http://www1.skysport...ng-qualy-battle

Thanks

 

I would agree with Sergio.

 

Despite a bad run lately, I think Jenson's 2013 has been pretty good in terms of relative performance. 



#138 Juggles

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:07

I just read the Mark Hughes article posted by SmokeScreen and picked up on this:

 

There is a feeling within the team that Button's performances were at a higher level when he was being pushed by comparison with Hamilton

 

http://www1.skysport...me-back-to-bite

 

I saw the interview with Button after qualifying yesterday and he just looked so sick and tired of this year. Do you think the lack of a barometer teammate has affected his performance this year or is it more down to the realisation that he has no chance of winning a race in such a mediocre car? Or do you think Button has performed exactly as he would have done had either the car been quick or Hamilton been in the sister McLaren?



#139 Boxerevo

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:16

I just read the Mark Hughes article posted by SmokeScreen and picked up on this:

 

There is a feeling within the team that Button's performances were at a higher level when he was being pushed by comparison with Hamilton

 

http://www1.skysport...me-back-to-bite

 

I saw the interview with Button after qualifying yesterday and he just looked so sick and tired of this year. Do you think the lack of a barometer teammate has affected his performance this year or is it more down to the realisation that he has no chance of winning a race in such a mediocre car? Or do you think Button has performed exactly as he would have done had either the car been quick or Hamilton been in the sister McLaren?

Being a Wdc racing in F1 without a chance to get a podium... :|


Edited by Boxerevo, 24 November 2013 - 04:20.


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#140 charly0418

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:23

I just read the Mark Hughes article posted by SmokeScreen and picked up on this:

 

There is a feeling within the team that Button's performances were at a higher level when he was being pushed by comparison with Hamilton

 

http://www1.skysport...me-back-to-bite

 

I saw the interview with Button after qualifying yesterday and he just looked so sick and tired of this year. Do you think the lack of a barometer teammate has affected his performance this year or is it more down to the realisation that he has no chance of winning a race in such a mediocre car? Or do you think Button has performed exactly as he would have done had either the car been quick or Hamilton been in the sister McLaren?

 

You're looking too deep in the situation, the car is shit, that's it



#141 Juggles

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:55

You're looking too deep in the situation, the car is shit, that's it

 

It isn't me, it's Mark Hughes making public a "feeling within" McLaren.



#142 charly0418

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:59

It isn't me, it's Mark Hughes making public a "feeling within" McLaren.

 

then McLaren and Hughes are dumb.

 

Let's say they had Alonso or Hamilton this year, that driver would get 20-30 more points than Perez. They still would be without a podium, way behind the top 3 and left with a very, very crappy season.

 

I'm wondering why there arent any F1 reporters speculating about McLaren cutting management heads.



#143 pingu666

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 06:05

they wanted a exceptional driver, someone who could pull something out of the hat sometimes... And that hasn't happened so far

tbh button has felt demotivated to me, and perez the one with fight in him



#144 ATM

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:06

Well, as a fan, I can only agree with Button on this one. Let the season end, let the current McLaren car find its place as one of the worst McLarens yet, and let's start with a clean sheet of paper, and new hopes. Even if the new car will not be a rocket, Button will have his motivation back... and besides, the new regs, with so many judgement calls (fuel, ERS, smooth driving due to higher torque) would seem to suit him better than other, more hot-headed rivals. Well, at least in theory anyway. 

 

As for Perez bringing him compliments, I can only say that complimenting Button he indirectly compliments himself too. After all, the general paddock consensus is that Button beat him overall so....

Also, not to forget that Whitmarsh is trying, to some extent, to use his influence into convincing other teams to accept Sergio as their future driver. It would be, therefore, politically correct for Perez not to thrash the team gun-blazing, but keep a cordial approach  - until he signs the new contract anyway. 


Edited by ATM, 24 November 2013 - 07:06.


#145 Lazy

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:30

I just read the Mark Hughes article posted by SmokeScreen and picked up on this:

 

There is a feeling within the team that Button's performances were at a higher level when he was being pushed by comparison with Hamilton

 

http://www1.skysport...me-back-to-bite

 

I saw the interview with Button after qualifying yesterday and he just looked so sick and tired of this year. Do you think the lack of a barometer teammate has affected his performance this year or is it more down to the realisation that he has no chance of winning a race in such a mediocre car? Or do you think Button has performed exactly as he would have done had either the car been quick or Hamilton been in the sister McLaren?

Can you imagine Lewis' state of mind if he had turned down Merc only to see the 2 Nico's battling it out at the front whilst he was stuck in the 28?

 

In some ways they were lucky to have Checo, otherwise you would have 2 seriously disgruntled WDC's and a PR disaster.

 

I would generally expect JB to perform better under pressure from Lewis but I don't think it would have worked that way this year.

 

Instead I think they would have given each other confidence to speak out more about their frustrations. Would have been messy.



#146 Lights

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 09:26

I think there was more potential in the MP4-28 this season. Jenson was doing great in the first three fly-away races, and in the Nurb-Hung-Spa combo, but for the rest he has been average to poor. Especially the last 3 races have been a joke and have made me view his season quite differently. It could be partially down to frustration but it's part of his job to manage that. I do think that some other drivers would have been able to get more out of it, scoring something like 90 points by now. Maybe a podium was possible in India.

 

I don't think it's because he feels less pushed. That's ridiculous. Someone who lost the qualifying battle isn't going to feel untested. The car and developments have just been frustrating and I'm sure they tried whatever they could to be different and make it work but it didn't, leading to more frustration. I don't think it would have mattered a lot for Jenson if someone else was in the seat next to him.



#147 ATM

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:01

...but Jenson has had in the past some appalling seasons with Honda, much more disappointing than this 2013 year, and yet he always tried (and managed) to beat his team-mate to the last race. I mean, I really fail to remember the last time I've seen him so downbeat as yesterday. Such a shame too, as he seemed so motivated until 3 races ago to finish this disappointing year with dignity. 

Oh well, I guess all's for the better. I mean, next year cannot possibly go worst than this one. 

 

(or can it???/horror slasher music on)


Edited by ATM, 24 November 2013 - 10:02.


#148 Disgrace

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:47

Rubens was better in 2008.



#149 Force Ten

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 12:08

Rubens was better in 2008.

I'm sure that will be something to be immensely proud of. Maybe he will have it written on his tombstone? "I was better than Jenson in 2008".



#150 Lights

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 13:07

Once again, congrats to Sergio for winning the qualifying battle.

 

Not surprisingly @SChecoPerez has taken a new gearbox after his Q2 crash, so he drops to 19th on the grid