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Button v Perez 2013 (part II)


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#201 Lights

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:07

And that will help redrini's memory how?

I'm replying to you saying "It's been that bad. The MP4-10 is the next worst from the MP4 era"

 

But maybe I read too much into it.


Edited by Lights, 25 November 2013 - 11:08.


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#202 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:14

I'm replying to you saying "It's been that bad. The MP4-10 is the next worst from the MP4 era"

 

But maybe I read too much into it.

 

Consider it changed to, "The situation has been that bad. The MP-10 is the next worst from the MP4 era in terms of the number of times one of it's drivers stood on the podium".



#203 Dalton007

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 13:26

Strange that Whitmarsh is bigging up Perez. It seems that he wanted him to stay.



#204 Burtros

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 14:01

Its over at last! Hoooray!

 

Great race from both drivers, JB showed his class yesterday and SP showed he too has a place on the grid, even if its not in a McLaren. Shame the team messed up practice, the impact that had on qualy.

 

I'll call the qualy battle a draw. You cant give it to Perez since he did it going over the limit and the result was he started behind after the gearbox damage. I dont think Button can take it because end of the day, his lap was slower than Sergio's in Q2.4

 

Im now off to forget F1 2013 ever happened.



#205 coppilcus

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 15:11

Strange that Whitmarsh is bigging up Perez. It seems that he wanted him to stay.


It's what Eddie Jordan hints in an interview with Whitmarsh... all the signs are there: magnussen's deal with FI, dropped Perez at the last race with a contract already signed, all the manlove for Jenson in his statements on the second half of the season.

#206 HammyHamiltonFan

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 15:20

stunning final race of the season from Jenson, his best race this year I think, he did a good job with a bad car once more this year, reminded me of his Honda/BAR days.



#207 Lights

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 20:24

So here's my year review. Perhaps not as interesting as the one I did a year ago for the 3 year partnership of Button and Hamilton, but I might as well put it here anyway.

 

Button versus Perez points:

jbspp.png

MyGutFeelingTM performance scores:

jbsps.png

MyGutFeelingTM performance scores cumulative:

jbspsc.png

 

Jenson year average: 3,26

Sergio year average: 2,53

 

In perspective:

Driver	Year	Score
LH	2012	4,1
LH	2010	4,0
JB	2011	3,9
LH	2011	3,4
JB	2013	3,3
JB	2012	3,3
JB	2010	3,2
SP	2013	2,5


#208 Slartibartfast

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 21:33

I googled "Jenson Button injury" and it returned "Jenson annoyed by Vettel's finger"! :D


That isn't an injury, it's a pandemic.

#209 DanardiF1

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:43

Strange that Whitmarsh is bigging up Perez. It seems that he wanted him to stay.

 

I also think he genuinely believes Magnussen is too good an opportunity to miss up, so when Force India wouldn't take him to give him a chance in a smaller team, he had to move Perez on to get Kevin in F1 at any cost. It's no surprise that Perez will seemingly end up at Force India given he's coming from McLaren ala Magnussen but is experienced in F1 which is what FI want, as well as bringing money to the team.


Edited by DanardiF1, 26 November 2013 - 06:44.


#210 Rinehart

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:29

Interesting qualifying statistic to put things into perspective:

 

Button was outqualified by Perez 10 times. Hamilton was outqualified by Nico Rosberg for an eighth time, the most he has ever been outpaced by a team-mate in qualifying in a single season. Seven defeats by Alonso in 2007 and Button in 2011 are his previous lows. 

 

Suggests its not that Button is a poor qualifier, but that Perez is in the mix with the top drivers but Hamilton in on another level. 



#211 Lights

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 15:06

Interesting qualifying statistic to put things into perspective:

 

Button was outqualified by Perez 10 times. Hamilton was outqualified by Nico Rosberg for an eighth time, the most he has ever been outpaced by a team-mate in qualifying in a single season. Seven defeats by Alonso in 2007 and Button in 2011 are his previous lows. 

 

Suggests its not that Button is a poor qualifier, but that Perez is in the mix with the top drivers but Hamilton in on another level. 

Or that Button is still poor at qualifying and always has been.

 

He lost out to Rubens in qualifying over 4 years together. Even in the so-called great 2004 season, Jenson often found himself behind Sato on the grid IIRC.

 

I wouldn't say 'just' beating Jenson in qualifying over a year (occurrences btw, not time difference, as there Jenson won) puts you in the qualifying mix with the elite, there's not much proof for that.



#212 Lights

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 15:10

MyGutFeelingTM performance scores:

jbsps.png

 

Btw I just realized how after Sergio signed for McLaren last year, his performances dropped off at Sauber. Ironically this year, between Suzuka and India McLaren (probably) decided to replace him for Magnussen, and afterwards he actually started putting in good performances. 

 

If you see the trend line it's also not a surprise while when McLaren were evaluation whether or not to keep him during/after the summer, he wasn't held in a very high regard.


Edited by Lights, 26 November 2013 - 15:12.


#213 Rinehart

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 15:17

Or that Button is still poor at qualifying and always has been.

 

He lost out to Rubens in qualifying over 4 years together. Even in the so-called great 2004 season, Jenson often found himself behind Sato on the grid IIRC.

 

I wouldn't say 'just' beating Jenson in qualifying over a year (occurrences btw, not time difference, as there Jenson won) puts you in the qualifying mix with the elite, there's not much proof for that.

Rosberg, Alonso and Button all have a similar Q record v Hamilton, when you consider he was a rookie against Alonso and a new guy against Rosberg.

If Perez has matched Button, that looks to be reasonable to me.

Look at it how you want.

Better to be a stronger racer, than qualifier at the end of the day.



#214 redreni

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 15:27

Rosberg, Alonso and Button all have a similar Q record v Hamilton, when you consider he was a rookie against Alonso and a new guy against Rosberg.

If Perez has matched Button, that looks to be reasonable to me.

Look at it how you want.

Better to be a stronger racer, than qualifier at the end of the day.

 

Amen to that!



#215 Burtros

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 16:30

Qualy is without any doubt the biggest chink in Jensons armor.

 

A score of 10-9 (if you want to call it that) doesnt give Perez anything to shout about IMHO.



#216 BillBald

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 19:50

I don't know if anyone's still interested, but I think I now understand why McLaren were so unimpressed by Checo's performance in Abu Dhabi.

 

Having just re-watched the race (sad, I know) I see that before his 2nd stop Checo failed to take advantage of a clear track which opened up when Bottas pitted and got out of his way on lap 24.

 

If Checo had put in a real sprint at that point, before he pitted on lap 27, he would not have come out behind Maldonado. That would have allowed him to stay ahead of Sutil, who was very slow in the laps before he pitted on lap 28.

 

So Checo was mainly to blame for not having free air in the 2nd half of the race. That's assuming that the pitwall kept him properly informed of the situation, of course. Which they might have failed to do.



#217 DanardiF1

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 21:35

Btw I just realized how after Sergio signed for McLaren last year, his performances dropped off at Sauber. Ironically this year, between Suzuka and India McLaren (probably) decided to replace him for Magnussen, and afterwards he actually started putting in good performances. 

 

If you see the trend line it's also not a surprise while when McLaren were evaluation whether or not to keep him during/after the summer, he wasn't held in a very high regard.

 

So basically, for the time he had a secure contract, he was rubbish, and when his seat was under threat he woke up.

 

Reminds of me mercenary footballers like Emmanuel Adebayor. A player who only gives a crap and scores any goals when he is looking either for a new contract or to move teams.



#218 ElDictatore

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 21:58

So basically, for the time he had a secure contract, he was rubbish, and when his seat was under threat he woke up.

 

Reminds of me mercenary footballers like Emmanuel Adebayor. A player who only gives a crap and scores any goals when he is looking either for a new contract or to move teams.

 

Or he just cracked under pressure. Or it's subconscious. Or just a coincidence.



#219 inca_roads

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 00:05

Rosberg, Alonso and Button all have a similar Q record v Hamilton, when you consider he was a rookie against Alonso and a new guy against Rosberg.

 

They do if you're only counting 2011 for Button, yes. Hardly seems fair though, as it's only picking one year, which was his best of the three in qualifying also.

 

I think Hamilton was pretty much 3-1 ratio (42-14 or something fairly close to that figure) against Button in qualifying overall, so I fail to see how that's similar with the Rosberg 11-8 score, even accounting for Lewis being in a new team.



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#220 sennafan24

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 12:33

Qualy is without any doubt the biggest chink in Jensons armor.

 

A score of 10-9 (if you want to call it that) doesnt give Perez anything to shout about IMHO.

Perez was not the best qualifier in 2012, it was obvious then that his one lap pace was lacking.

 

It is worrying that Button lost 10-9, still the Brazil race shows Button can still pull his finger out, and produce stellar drives.



#221 Lights

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 13:09

Or he just cracked under pressure. Or it's subconscious. Or just a coincidence.

Actually logic would then say he did well under pressure. Of course it could be a coincidence, this is very little data, but still.



#222 Dalton007

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 13:02

Button fans will enjoy this:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...merset-25167148



#223 Lazy

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 13:16

:)

 

I used to live just up the hill from that Christmas tree.



#224 Burtros

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 13:20

Button fans will enjoy this:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...merset-25167148

 

This one didnt!!! They didnt announce it at all from what I could tell. I found out about it 10mins before it started.

 

The significance of that is I'm in Somerset, about 30 mins from Frome. He was making our local news bulletins long before Williams and F1 came along towards the end of 99, I would have been there with bells on loving every minute of it.

 

I understand why they didnt announce it, but gutted in every way to have missed it!! Looked ace, and I know Frome well so seeing an F1 car driving rounds the streets in the videos is a little surreal.


Edited by Burtros, 02 December 2013 - 13:21.


#225 Dalton007

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 15:14

It could have been a great place to meet fellow Button fans. Us fans need to meet up next year - his second championship winning year. ;)



#226 coppilcus

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 20:52

Btw I just realized how after Sergio signed for McLaren last year, his performances dropped off at Sauber. Ironically this year, between Suzuka and India McLaren (probably) decided to replace him for Magnussen, and afterwards he actually started putting in good performances. 
 
If you see the trend line it's also not a surprise while when McLaren were evaluation whether or not to keep him during/after the summer, he wasn't held in a very high regard.


We don't know when FI dropped the deal with lightning fast magnussen, so, we can also assume that Perez improved his knowledge on the 28 and the relationship with his engineer only got better because of that... It would be naive to think that he only improved because he needed to 'shine' as to secure a seat in other team...

... as naive as calling Jenson an overpaid moron driver just because he screwed his and other drivers races on the last four GP of the season.

#227 coppilcus

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 20:55

Or he just cracked under pressure. Or it's subconscious. Or just a coincidence.


... or he just was on his first three or four races with the glorious McLaren team, which would have its worst season so far, who could have known.

#228 DanardiF1

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 06:52

We don't know when FI dropped the deal with lightning fast magnussen, so, we can also assume that Perez improved his knowledge on the 28 and the relationship with his engineer only got better because of that... It would be naive to think that he only improved because he needed to 'shine' as to secure a seat in other team...

... as naive as calling Jenson an overpaid moron driver just because he screwed his and other drivers races on the last four GP of the season.

 

It would be naive to think that is solely the reason for Sergio's underwhelming performance for the bulk of the year, but for many sportsmen it's exactly that case...



#229 coppilcus

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:57

It would be naive to think that is solely the reason for Sergio's underwhelming performance for the bulk of the year, but for many sportsmen it's exactly that case...


Exactly, for many sportsmen lightning fast magnussen cant get dropped by any team... all that simulator data is overwhelmingly factual, oh, wait!

Reality always out qualifies fiction...

#230 ermo

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 20:00

Any news of where Sergio will end up? Sauber? FI?



#231 Dalton007

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 08:58

Since the Alonso rumour [for 2015] won't go away, I do wonder if 2014 will be Button's last year at the team.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/25400798


Edited by Dalton007, 17 December 2013 - 08:59.


#232 Lazy

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 11:14

Since the Alonso rumour [for 2015] won't go away, I do wonder if 2014 will be Button's last year at the team.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/25400798

Next year will be a big year for him one way or the other.



#233 BillBald

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 11:31

Given how the relationship ended last time, I can only see an element of desperation in MW's attempts to sign Alonso.

 

If they produce a good car for next year, that desperation will go away, so we could even have the situation where Alonso decides to go with McLaren, but they no longer want him.

 

As far as Jenson's future is concerned, he needs to perform at his best, no question of that. Another WDC would definitely help.



#234 ermo

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 14:32

Since Autosport's 2013 F1 season driver ratings are out (AS+ subscription required), I figured I'd try to put the numbers into a spreadsheet and see what stood out, particularly with respect to Jenson and Sergio:
 
ZMBLJTH.png

(link to image if the imgur-hosted one above expires)
 
The rows were sorted first on AS season rating in descending order (highest to lowest) and then in ascending points order (lowest to highest).
 
Although the ratings do tend to take into consideration the machinery, there's a clear trend that drivers in a good car who underperform get lower ratings.  This approach thus emphasizes the driver rating relative to the car.
 
The stand-out performers in non-top 4 cars were Nico Hülkenberg, Jules Bianchi and Valtteri Bottas.  Felipe Massa underperformed badly in the Ferrari.
 
Sergio was outrated by 5 drivers who finished behind him in the WDC standings.  All in all, he will need to stand out at Force India if he hopes to get a 2nd shot at a big team in the future.
 
In comparison, only stand-out performer Nico Hülkenberg in the Sauber was rated higher than Button in a car that was marginally slower over the season (except at the very end, where the Sauber was the faster car). Jenson's rating more or less coincides with his WDC position, which makes his performance a merely adequate one given his experience.
____
 
 
Looking only at the sum of the ratings for the driver pairings, the top 5 looks like this:
 
1. 15.7 (8.6 + 7.1) Red Bull
2. 14.9 (7.6 + 7.3) Lotus
3. 14.7 (7.5 + 7.2) Mercedes
4. 14.4 (8.1 + 6.3) Ferrari
5.1. 13.7 (7.1 + 6.6) McLaren (9th and 11th in the WDC, 5th in the WCC with 122 points)
5.2. 13.7 (7.0 + 6.7) Force India (12th and 13th in the WDC, 6th in the WCC with 77 points)
 
On the basis of this season's performances, Hülkenberg represents a stiff challenge for Sergio to go up against at Force India next season.  It'll be exciting how that pans out.
 
The overall closest driver pairing seems to be Lewis and Nico at Mercedes, if we look at both their points total and their ratings.
 
Kimi showed his class in the Lotus while driving for free for much of the season (the guy clearly isn't missing any motivation!), while Romain picked up the pace in the 2nd half of the season.

Next season, Ferrari will likely have the strongest driver paring (closely followed by the Mercedes pairing), assuming of course that the Kimi+Alonso combination doesn't sponteanously self-combust. Exciting times ahead! :smoking:


Edited by ermo, 23 December 2013 - 14:57.


#235 tkulla

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 15:09

I think Sergio I has a golden opportunity next year. Hulk's reputation is at an all-time high so there is little in the way of expectations for Perez. Merely matching Nico will boost his reputation significantly, and I for one wouldn't be surprised if he manages it.

#236 Lazy

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 18:09

http://t.co/sWChy0WQad

 

BcPgNmJIAAA0ggJ.jpg

Jenson and McLaren, 2nd only to Vettel and Red Bull :)

 

But not a top tier driver  :rolleyes:


Edited by Lazy, 25 December 2013 - 18:24.


#237 sennafan24

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 22:30

I think the stat that stood out to me this year was that in races finished ahead, Jenson beat Perez 13-6. I really rate that statistics as a accurate measurement of teammate comparison, whilst not fool proof, it does show who came out on top when races were completed (I think Perez was classified without finishing for Monaco and Germany and Jenson for Sepang, but even if not 11-5 is still impressive for Jenson)

 

Jenson in 2013, was a good league better than 2012 in my opinion, despite him going to sleep a bit towards the end of the year. He raised his stock for me.



#238 f1RacingForever

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 06:20

I'm not exactly sure what Mclaren expected of Perez but imo he was good enough that he should still be in the team. Deserving of 1 year at least. I think it's fairly obvious he will never be a top tier driver but he might turn out to be a very solid all rounder. Rarely do young driver put everything together early in their caerrer. Most need a few seasons to learn and improve themselves. As someone else pointed out, Kimi looked anything but great in his first season. What would have happened to him and Mclaren had they gotten rid of him? Now Perez is bound to hop around from one midfield team to another for the rest of his career, probably never realizing his potential? What other top team will take a chance on him now?



#239 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 09:05

http://t.co/sWChy0WQad

 

BcPgNmJIAAA0ggJ.jpg

Jenson and McLaren, 2nd only to Vettel and Red Bull :)

 

But not a top tier driver  :rolleyes:

jenson and vettel are the only lead drivers that have ever benefited a huge car advantage. (2009 until now0


Edited by MikeTekRacing, 26 December 2013 - 09:05.


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#240 Lazy

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 09:28

jenson and vettel are the only lead drivers that have ever benefited a huge car advantage. (2009 until now0

Maybe Vettel, but Jenson only had a car advantage for 5 or 6 races in one of those 5 years.



#241 scheivlak

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 10:05

As someone else pointed out, Kimi looked anything but great in his first season. 

OT - that person was wrong.

 

An example from april 2001, still early in the season:  http://atlasf1.autos...w/collings.html

"Four races into the season, Kimi-mania is very much alive, and veterans of the press center are talking about the young Finn with enthusiasm rarely seen."

"In short, as Frank Williams has recently admitted, he is the newcomer to have made the biggest impression so far in the 2001 season."



#242 study

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 12:20

http://t.co/sWChy0WQad

 

BcPgNmJIAAA0ggJ.jpg

Jenson and McLaren, 2nd only to Vettel and Red Bull :)

 

But not a top tier driver  :rolleyes:

 

Why start at 2009, not 2008 or 2007, 2006?

 

Very strange table.



#243 Disgrace

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 12:24

2009-13 is the latest period of aero regulations.



#244 scheivlak

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 12:24

Why start at 2009, not 2008 or 2007, 2006?

 

 

It's a page of a magazine review of the years 2009-2013 specifically.



#245 BillBald

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 14:46

Why start at 2009, not 2008 or 2007, 2006?

 

Very strange table.

 

Yes, why didn't they include 2007 and 2008?

 

That would make it much fairer. :drunk:



#246 f1RacingForever

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 00:11

OT - that person was wrong.

 

An example from april 2001, still early in the season:  http://atlasf1.autos...w/collings.html

"Four races into the season, Kimi-mania is very much alive, and veterans of the press center are talking about the young Finn with enthusiasm rarely seen."

"In short, as Frank Williams has recently admitted, he is the newcomer to have made the biggest impression so far in the 2001 season."

Yeah some people thought he was great. Point noted. I just don't see it though. Considering who his teammate was you'd think he have done a better job. I don't see how holding his your against coultard is impressive. Perez performed similarly against Jenson, a strong opponent. Not impressive but to me neither was Kimi.



#247 ElDictatore

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 02:30

Yeah some people thought he was great. Point noted. I just don't see it though. Considering who his teammate was you'd think he have done a better job. I don't see how holding his your against coultard is impressive. Perez performed similarly against Jenson, a strong opponent. Not impressive but to me neither was Kimi.

 

I think it was agreed that Perez' performance wasn't really the only key to that but more that Kevin was pushing for that seat.

I was always very critical of Checo and the signing of his but I kind of feel bad for him because he has shown the speed on occasion and probably will get better with time.

He definately deserves a second chance in F1 and I'm glad he found the seat at Force India. And Hulk will be a good reference point next year onwards.



#248 jjcale

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 05:03

I think the stat that stood out to me this year was that in races finished ahead, Jenson beat Perez 13-6. I really rate that statistics as a accurate measurement of teammate comparison, whilst not fool proof, it does show who came out on top when races were completed (I think Perez was classified without finishing for Monaco and Germany and Jenson for Sepang, but even if not 11-5 is still impressive for Jenson)

 

Jenson in 2013, was a good league better than 2012 in my opinion, despite him going to sleep a bit towards the end of the year. He raised his stock for me.

 

I agree... I thought JB was very good last year.... and SP was quite good as well. 

 

Despite my initial perception that Macca had a decent car, it was clearly one of their poorer designs... I am disappointed that SP was let go, I almost feel that Macca had an obligation too keep him - if only to give him at least one year in a "proper" Macca car.



#249 Peter Perfect

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 07:10

I agree... I thought JB was very good last year.... and SP was quite good as well. 

 

Despite my initial perception that Macca had a decent car, it was clearly one of their poorer designs... I am disappointed that SP was let go, I almost feel that Macca had an obligation too keep him - if only to give him at least one year in a "proper" Macca car.

From the reports at the time and since my impression is that MW's original plan was to farm KM out to Force India and keep Checo. However he made it clear that although he thought he had an agreement in place the other party reneged on the deal and alternative arrangements had to be made. I can only guess that McLaren still intend to have the option of bringing Checo back to the team at some point in the future given MW's efforts to find him a seat (although Checo hasn't mentioned MW since his seat was confirmed).



#250 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 11:12

Yeah some people thought he was great. Point noted. I just don't see it though. Considering who his teammate was you'd think he have done a better job. I don't see how holding his your against coultard is impressive. Perez performed similarly against Jenson, a strong opponent. Not impressive but to me neither was Kimi.

Kimi only finished six out of seventeen races in his first McLaren year, so a bit unfair to say he wasn't impressive. By the way, all those finishes were in the top four, not bad if you ask me. And we all know he destroyed DC in 2003 and 2004 (on pace).