93 replies to this topic

[Murl]

The point I am trying to make is that excluding facts from your dialogue is misleading -- especially if you don't believe Maldonado is worthy of an F1 career.

 

With or without PDVSA money, Maldonado is convinced he has a ride.  I personally don't admire drivers that roll over.  I want them to kick and scratch and bite and fight all the way into the retirement paddock.

 

What makes you think that I believe he is not worthy of a drive?

 

The guy is a race winner.

[charly0418]

What makes you think that I believe he is not worthy of a drive?

 

The guy is a race winner.

 

he has raw talent thats for sure, however I was very dissapointed to read what he said about Williams. Just when you think he has matured....

[Romulan]

What do you think the business case is for supporting Maldonado, other than bread and circuses?

 

 

What makes you think that I believe he is not worthy of a drive?

 

 

Your own words?
 

[Disgrace]

I'm going to tweet that Ferrari will pull out of F1 after 2015, do I get my own thread now?

[Pothead4Philosopher]

I'm going to tweet that Ferrari will pull out of F1 after 2015, do I get my own thread now?

 

Aw -w, just use your handle as the thread topic mate. It'll be a hot one....

 

;-))

[V3TT3L]

With or without PDVSA money, Maldonado is convinced he has a ride. 

Maldonna is convinced he is doing a good job at Williams, therefore is convinced he has a seat guaranteed in F1.

 

That's sheer logic!

[Murl]

Your own words?
 

 

Being worthy of a drive and having a viable business case for sponsorship are two different things.

PDVSA is spending millions because...because Maldonado is a great driver?

No.

If he was a great driver, he'd have drives regardless of backing.

So why do they do it?

 

I think Maldonado is a bit of a joke in action, sure. He's got something though, he's the most unheralded race winner of the last how many years, decades maybe?

 

If the gravy train he's been on came to a halt he might have to rely on the fact that he's got what it takes, rather than his connections. It could be the making of him.

I'd love to see him come good. Nothing like seeing someone confound their critics.
 

[OvDrone]

PDVSA, who?

[sheogorath]

Being worthy of a drive and having a viable business case for sponsorship are two different things.

PDVSA is spending millions because...because Maldonado is a great driver?

No.

If he was a great driver, he'd have drives regardless of backing.

So why do they do it?

 

 

 

 

National pride and as part of a project to boost venezuelans at every sports level. Like I said, Maldo isn't the only one, just the most visible one due to the nature of Formula 1.

 

You have EJ Viso, Cecotto Jr., Rodolfo Gonzalez, Milka Duno, Samin Gomez, Roberto La Rocca, Alex Popow, Enzo Potollichio, Jorge Goncalvez, Bruno Palli and probably a few others I can't remember right now.

 

And is not just motorsport, but also other sports, like fencing where Ruben Limardo ranks N°1 in epee.

[coppilcus]

National pride and as part of a project to boost venezuelans at every sports level. Like I said, Maldo isn't the only one, just the most visible one due to the nature of Formula 1.

You have EJ Viso, Cecotto Jr., Rodolfo Gonzalez, Milka Duno, Samin Gomez, Roberto La Rocca, Alex Popow, Enzo Potollichio, Jorge Goncalvez, Bruno Palli and probably a few others I can't remember right now.

And is not just motorsport, but also other sports, like fencing where Ruben Limardo ranks N°1 in epee.

... and at every series and level, they're everywhere in the Mexican and latinamerican series; it's more common to se a pdvs branded cat than a Telmex one.

Let's hope that Chavez reincarnated in the already famous bird told Maduro to continue with motor sports endorsement.

Edited by coppilcus, 22 November 2013 - 03:38.

[MortenF1]

If this is just a tactical game being played by Maldonado and PDVSA, I don't understand it, and certainly not Sawards take, that money will change hands without there being any branding on the Lotus, but it'll still be on the Williams....!

[Murl]

National pride and as part of a project to boost venezuelans at every sports level. Like I said, Maldo isn't the only one, just the most visible one due to the nature of Formula 1.

 

You have EJ Viso, Cecotto Jr., Rodolfo Gonzalez, Milka Duno, Samin Gomez, Roberto La Rocca, Alex Popow, Enzo Potollichio, Jorge Goncalvez, Bruno Palli and probably a few others I can't remember right now.

 

And is not just motorsport, but also other sports, like fencing where Ruben Limardo ranks N°1 in epee.

 

 

Do you think it is money well spent?

[charly0418]

Do you think it is money well spent?

 

I'd be pissed if my goverment spent money like that, but then again its none of my bussines as its their country and they vote for that stuff.

Edited by charly0418, 22 November 2013 - 04:31.

[sheogorath]

Do you think it is money well spent?

 

Yes. Maybe we can move on from "Miss Universe Masters" to something with a bit more of adrenaline 

 

I'd be pissed if my goverment spent money like that, but then again its none of my bussines as its their country and they vote for that stuff.

 

 It's all relative. Western governments just spent a few hundred billion dollars saving the asses of a bunch of rich fat ****s who couldn't control themselves and their banks and most people over there seem to be ok with the idea of "privatizating gains and socializing losses".

 

Then you have governments throwing money at projects that should have been dead long ago like the F-35 fighter.

 

Or the MASSIVE surveillance state(NSA, GCHQ, etc.) with secret courts some of the people in this board are funding with their money and don't seem to mind.

[Murl]

Yes. Maybe we can move on from "Miss Universe Masters" to something with a bit more of adrenaline 

 

 

 It's all relative. Western governments just spent a few hundred billion dollars saving the asses of a bunch of rich fat ****s who couldn't control themselves and their banks and most people over there seem to be ok with the idea of "privatizating gains and socializing losses".

 

Then you have governments throwing money at projects that should have been dead long ago like the F-35 fighter.

 

Or the MASSIVE surveillance state(NSA, GCHQ, etc.) with secret courts some of the people in this board are funding with their money and don't seem to mind.

 

 

For sure, it is all relative.

 

We are racing fans. Let's face it, someone has to pay ridiculous amounts of coin to burn all that rubber, petrol, and shatter carbon.

I find it amusing to see people cheering the Venezuelans on as they burn through millions so that we can enjoy a decent budget for Williams. But then, who does have a better reason, no one I guess?

[Romulan]

Being worthy of a drive and having a viable business case for sponsorship are two different things.

PDVSA is spending millions because...because Maldonado is a great driver?

No.

If he was a great driver, he'd have drives regardless of backing.

So why do they do it?

 

I think Maldonado is a bit of a joke in action, sure. He's got something though, he's the most unheralded race winner of the last how many years, decades maybe?

 

If the gravy train he's been on came to a halt he might have to rely on the fact that he's got what it takes, rather than his connections. It could be the making of him.

I'd love to see him come good. Nothing like seeing someone confound their critics.
 

 

To be honest, I don't have the skill-set(s) to differentiate between the motives of large sponsors.  I just assume they're all trying to sell something.  In my opinion, it would be poor judgment to sponsor a driver who spoils your brand.  On the other hand, and as well as we already know, big money does not guarantee competence.

[Hans V]

You don't become the world's richest man by hating potential business partners, to be honest.

 

I think hate, envy and self-loathing are crucuial traits for becoming incredibly rich.... ;-)

[Kelateboy]

Do you think it is money well spent?

 

PDVSA is not the only oil giants sponsoring F1 teams. Shell, Petronas, Mobil 1, Total, Elf, etc are in formula 1 too, so there must be some benefits for paying obscene amount of money for global exposure.

[Shiroo]

PDVSA is not the only oil giants sponsoring F1 teams. Shell, Petronas, Mobil 1, Total, Elf, etc are in formula 1 too, so there must be some benefits for paying obscene amount of money for global exposure.

 

spending these 20-30mln for them is really nothing.

[Murl]

PDVSA is not the only oil giants sponsoring F1 teams. Shell, Petronas, Mobil 1, Total, Elf, etc are in formula 1 too, so there must be some benefits for paying obscene amount of money for global exposure.

I'm not in the Americas, so don't have much appreciation of PDVSA as a brand. I have seen CITGO when I was in the States.

 

I do know that I can buy Shell, Mobil, Elf oils locally. I've never seen anything of Petronas, or PDVSA. Are they household names in their own markets, like Shell, Elf etc?

[JRizzle86]

I'm pretty sure Slim hates McLaren right now

I'm pretty sure he is indifferent

[EthanM]

I'm not in the Americas, so don't have much appreciation of PDVSA as a brand. I have seen CITGO when I was in the States.

 

I do know that I can buy Shell, Mobil, Elf oils locally. I've never seen anything of Petronas, or PDVSA. Are they household names in their own markets, like Shell, Elf etc?

 

yes they are. Petronas has something like 1000 filling stations around malaysia alone and afaik PDVSA's main retail brand is PDV which is all you see in Venezuela

[Amphicar]

yes they are. Petronas has something like 1000 filling stations around malaysia alone and afaik PDVSA's main retail brand is PDV which is all you see in Venezuela

and about 14,000 CITGO (a wholly-owned PDVSA subsidiary) gas stations in the USA

[Kristian]

I've just realised that more than half of Maldonado's career points were in the Spanish GP last year! 

 

If Maldonado is out of F1, how many other drivers only lasted 3 seasons but got a win in that time? (since the early 90s, say)

[Buttoneer]

Please try and avoid this thread turning into a wider discussion about the world economy and politics in general.  It is about PDVSA withdrawing from F1 and while that naturally widens out a little to cover other sponsors or potential sponsors, this is a motorsport forum and the direction of discussion should reflect that please.

[DampMongoose]

I've just realised that more than half of Maldonado's career points were in the Spanish GP last year! 

 

If Maldonado is out of F1, how many other drivers only lasted 3 seasons but got a win in that time? (since the early 90s, say)

 

Since 1990 or so, only a couple come close... Kubica 1 win in 4 and a bit seasons, Panis 1 win in 6 seasons (first F1 stint), Nannini 1 win in 4 seasons.  If you go back further there are a few more, but mostly out of F1 for more tragic circumstances...such as Gunnar Nillson 1 win in 2 seasons and Cevert 1 in almost 3.

[mariner]

This may have been covered already but there is, apparently, an ongoing scandal/investigation in Venezuela about sports sponsorship being used to exploit the real vs ofiicial FX rates in Venezuela.

 

Its the usual sports story - overstate the sponsorship value, move all the money but divert some of it to dodgy dealings.

 

In this case the gov't releases USD at the "official " rate and then X% of the USD is used to buy back local Venezuelean currency at the black market rate, which is about 6-7 times worse. Do that with a chunk of sponsorship money and you are local millionaire quick.

 

I dont think tehre is any suggestion whatever that PDVSA or Maldanado did that but all external sponsorship funding is being checked very hard. The penalties for that sort of thing are very, very severe due to the huge official vs real FX rate spread.

[Kristian]

Since 1990 or so, only a couple come close... Kubica 1 win in 4 and a bit seasons, Panis 1 win in 6 seasons (first F1 stint), Nannini 1 win in 4 seasons.  If you go back further there are a few more, but mostly out of F1 for more tragic circumstances...such as Gunnar Nillson 1 win in 2 seasons and Cevert 1 in almost 3.

 

Ah interesting, I'll have a deeper think over the weekend. Yep I imagine it was quite common in the 60s/70s when death/injury would shorten careers, but in the modern day it might be a bit of a record. 

[GhostR]

Maybe yes. Santander still sponsors McLaren 6 years after Alonso left the team.

 

They had darn good business reasons to. They were in the middle of re-branding Abbey into Santander and having two British drivers and a British team to help them ease that into place was a windfall they couldn't refuse. (They're still milking Button for all they can get even now).

[kraduk]

Being worthy of a drive and having a viable business case for sponsorship are two different things.

PDVSA is spending millions because...because Maldonado is a great driver?

No.

If he was a great driver, he'd have drives regardless of backing.

So why do they do it?

 

I think Maldonado is a bit of a joke in action, sure. He's got something though, he's the most unheralded race winner of the last how many years, decades maybe?

 

If the gravy train he's been on came to a halt he might have to rely on the fact that he's got what it takes, rather than his connections. It could be the making of him.

I'd love to see him come good. Nothing like seeing someone confound their critics.
 

 

no there are a few very good drivers with no money that dont seem to be able to get a good drive at the moment. I suspect it will be 3-4 more years before a good driver with no money and isnt part of a development plan can get a top seat, and that will depend on when button, alonso, hamilton, seb, and kimi retiring.

[kraduk]

Since 1990 or so, only a couple come close... Kubica 1 win in 4 and a bit seasons, Panis 1 win in 6 seasons (first F1 stint), Nannini 1 win in 4 seasons.  If you go back further there are a few more, but mostly out of F1 for more tragic circumstances...such as Gunnar Nillson 1 win in 2 seasons and Cevert 1 in almost 3.

from what i remember Nannini was cut short in a helicopter crash, an arm like Kubica from memory

[DampMongoose]

from what i remember Nannini was cut short in a helicopter crash, an arm like Kubica from memory

 

Unfortunate pun hopefully not intended... yes Nannini had his arm severed and only regained partial use of his hand afterwards.  Although he did go on to drive in the ITC and then the CLK GTR in the the first year of the FIA GT's, interestingly winning his only race at Suzuka just as he did in his only F1 win.

[Hyak]

PDVSA is not the only oil giants sponsoring F1 teams. Shell, Petronas, Mobil 1, Total, Elf, etc are in formula 1 too, so there must be some benefits for paying obscene amount of money for global exposure.

 

Exactly. Very good point made. Many so called neo-liberals just like to hate on everything that Venezuela stands for because they are not aligned with the petrodollar.

[Shambolic]

I think he won an election recently.

 

His governance style seems to be from the same playbook as Chavez, if that means anything.

Would be interesting to know just what family connections Maldanado has, or if he is just a flag waver for the populists?

 

They will surely lose the next election, so we have a sunset on Maldanado and the rest of the Venezuelans.

 

There's little chance of a change of government in  Venezuela - The current "elected dictator" is doing some fairly major, and superficiailly "good" things with an election in about 2 weeks time.

 

Not to mention the integrity of the voting system is a tad questionable there.

 

PDVSA money will flow or not flow depending on if the president sees it as popular or unpopular to throw money at F1. Looking at the things he's been up to recently, it's hard to say. It comes down to national pride vs defiance against profiteers, and which one gets more flags waving on the next parade..

[Donka]

There's little chance of a change of government in  Venezuela - The current "elected dictator" is doing some fairly major, and superficiailly "good" things with an election in about 2 weeks time.

 

Not to mention the integrity of the voting system is a tad questionable there.

 

PDVSA money will flow or not flow depending on if the president sees it as popular or unpopular to throw money at F1. Looking at the things he's been up to recently, it's hard to say. It comes down to national pride vs defiance against profiteers, and which one gets more flags waving on the next parade..

http://news.yahoo.co...-071959194.html

[Coral]

Are you serious? Why would anyone want Maldonado in F1?? He's a liability, terribly clumsy and brings nothing to the sport. Ahhh well there is plenty of stupid people in the world as we all know.

I'm not stupid and it is as jonpollak said, I meant hopefully it's goodbye to Maldonado. I don't know why anyone would think I would be a fan of Maldonado after his "confrontations" with Lewis Hamilton at Valencia last year and at Spa (?) in 2011. I think he is a horrible guy.

[pingu666]

imo Venezuela is super polorised, you either hate or love the government. but in general the poor people loved chavez. and there where/are alot of poor people there

[Kelateboy]

There's little chance of a change of government in  Venezuela - The current "elected dictator" is doing some fairly major, and superficiailly "good" things with an election in about 2 weeks time.

 

Not to mention the integrity of the voting system is a tad questionable there.

 

 

 

Oh wait, Is Florida a state in Venezuela? They seemed to have the same issue back in 2000. 

[motorhead]

PDVSA is not the only oil giants sponsoring F1 teams. Shell, Petronas, Mobil 1, Total, Elf, etc are in formula 1 too, so there must be some benefits for paying obscene amount of money for global exposure.

 

Do you go to fill up your car at PDVSA gas station, do you by PDVSA oils to your car? Excactly what marketing benefit PDVSA gets?

 

In 2006, Rafael Ramírez, the energy minister, gave PDVSA workers a choice: Support President Hugo Chávez, or lose their jobs. The minister also said: "PDVSA is red [the color identified with Chávez's political party], red from top to bottom". Chávez defended Ramírez, saying that public workers should back the "revolution". He added that "PDVSA's workers are with this revolution, and those who aren't should go somewhere else. Go to Miami"

Edited by motorhead, 23 November 2013 - 09:44.

[ExFlagMan]

imo Venezuela is super polorised, you either hate or love the government. but in general the poor people loved chavez. and there where/are alot of poor people there

If the inflation rate is 54% then the government are probably doing a good job of increasing the no of poor!

[SpartanChas]

PDVSA just have their logo on the car though don't they? It's not a technical partnership like Shell-Ferrari, Petronas-Mercedes.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I dunno, what fuel does Williams use? They're most likely using Elf lubricants for the Renault engine.

[Kelateboy]

Do you go to fill up your car at PDVSA gas station, do you by PDVSA oils to your car? Excactly what marketing benefit PDVSA gets?

 

I do not buy gas at PDVSA gas stations because they are not available in my home country. But I do patronize Petronas, Shell and ESSO petrol stations and they are all sponsors of F1 teams either directly or indirectly through their subsidiaries.

[Bleu]

I dunno, what fuel does Williams use? They're most likely using Elf lubricants for the Renault engine.

 

Not certain, but Elf merged with Total about decade ago.