57 replies to this topic

[Lazy]

On the face of it the all out racers ( Lewis, Pastor etc) may be frustrated by the extra strategic necessities imposed on them and the more long view, calculated approach (Jenson, Kimi etc) should be an advantage.

 

But maybe the reduced df and extra torque will be an advantage to the racers who are generally happier with a loose rear end.

 

Will Seb lose his corner exit advantage without the EBD?

 

Or could it be that drivers more in the middle of that spectrum (eg Fred) will have a better balance?

 

Reliablilty is going to be a huge factor, so the more mechanically sympathetic drivers may have an edge.

 

Drivers who use less fuel should reap the benefits from the 100kg limit, a heavy right foot could be disastrous.

[Shiroo]

I predict Vettel domination once again.

[Oho]

Seriously off topic and if I should be scalded by the moderators for it so be it, but, while not doubting the original posters purest of intentions, I am afraid this thread will descend into yet another variant of  'Name your mostest favorite driver'.

 

He makes note of Räikkönen on the opening line, that's a sure fire way to get the job done.

 

On topic, while not knowing whom they might be, the drivers that can handle peakier power delivery should benefit.

Edited by Oho, 22 November 2013 - 08:55.

[Lazy]

Seriously off topic and if I should be scalded by the moderators for it so be it, but, while not doubting the original posters purest of intentions, I am afraid this thread will descend into yet another variant of  'Name your mostest favorite driver'.

 

He makes note of Räikkönen on the opening line, that's a sure fire way to get the job done.

 

On topic, while not knowing whom they might be, the drivers that can handle peakier power delivery should benefit.

Really? I would have thought the opposite tbh.

[rasul]

 

But maybe the reduced df and extra torque will be an advantage to the racers who are generally happier with a loose rear end.

 

Will Seb lose his corner exit advantage without the EBD?

 

Vettel should be fine.

Sebastien Bourdais's recent interview on Vettel:

 

 

"His main strength is he is naturally gifted and has awesome car control and that allows him to drive a car on the limit with oversteer (when the front of the car has more grip than the rear) all the time - and that tends to be the quickest way in Formula 1."

He did very well in STR. Now he's far more experienced, so I don't really see why he would struggle more than other drivers.

[Kalmake]

On topic, while not knowing whom they might be, the drivers that can handle peakier power delivery should benefit.

Power curves have never been as flat as they will be next year.

[Rinehart]

The best ones will benefit and the worst ones will suffer...

[Lazy]

Vettel should be fine.

Sebastien Bourdais's recent interview on Vettel:

He did very well in STR. Now he's far more experienced, so I don't really see why he would struggle more than other drivers.

H will be fine as he's a quality driver but by all accounts he has been utilising the EBD to get on the power miles earlier than the rest, that part of his skillset should be negated next year I would have thought.

[Lazy]

The best ones will benefit and the worst ones will suffer...

Yes but best at what?

[EthanM]

they will all spend a gazillion hours over the winter in their simulators and by the time end of January rolls by they will be fine with the new formula. Beyond that the most adaptable ones will do better. But it's far to early to talk about driving styles when a huge factor is still unknown: tyres. If Pirelli produce bricks then less finesse will be required, if Pirelli produce tyres that disintegrate when you exceed specific slip angles then more finesse will be required

[Ellios]

Vettel is a very adaptable driver, he's shown an ability to master nuances within the car and make the very best of it, if (as many suspect) Red Bull produce a powerful racing car next year I have no doubts Vettel will be quick to adapt his style and technique to make the most of what he is given, he's still very young and can learn quickly

 

I suspect the driver who will struggle are the ones who have car issues to contend with as well as new regulations... plus whatever tyre issues appear next year (I'm thinking Pirelli will play it safer...)

[Lazy]

Vettel is a very adaptable driver, he's shown an ability to master nuances within the car and make the very best of it, if (as many suspect) Red Bull produce a powerful racing car next year I have no doubts Vettel will be quick to adapt his style and technique to make the most of what he is given, he's still very young and can learn quickly

 

I suspect the driver who will struggle are the ones who have car issues to contend with as well as new regulations... plus whatever tyre issues appear next year (I'm thinking Pirelli will play it safer...)

I'm hoping Pirelli will provide tyres that are less temp sensitive, tyre wear I think the drivers can handle. It's temp sensitivity that introduces the random factor .

[Oho]

Well perhaps not power but force at the driven wheels. One of the most frequently noted concerns is marginality of rear tires given increased torque figures.

Edited by Oho, 22 November 2013 - 10:00.

[EthanM]

I'm hoping Pirelli will provide tyres that are less temp sensitive, tyre wear I think the drivers can handle. It's temp sensitivity that introduces the random factor .

 

except it's not. 2013 Pirellis problem was corner loads, exceed those whole tread moved, big chunks of it flew off, tyres were gone. Apply something similar to 2014 where there will be a lot more torque lower down the engine speedband and you have an almost impossible situation

[maverick69]

On the face of it the all out racers ( Lewis, Pastor etc) may be frustrated by the extra strategic necessities imposed on them and the more long view, calculated approach (Jenson, Kimi etc) should be an advantage.

 

 

For starters, I think your first sentence is flawed. I mean - How does someone being frustrated at a specific set conditions have a disadvantage to those who are perhaps not?

 

Take the last race for example....... using the very person you cite. Hamilton was vocally annoyed at having to play the long game - but he did it perfectly well and maximised the result for his team. Where as Jenson........

[Anderis]

I think Rosberg may benefit from it. I've read that he is very good at managing his engine, fuel consumption etc.

[RedRocksF1]

Actually we don´t know how it´s going on next year.

 

But I can adventure that the most intelligent drivers in managing races (for me 1ºAlonso, 2ºKimi) will take advantage. Vettel now for me is an ?

[FenderJaguar]

I think the usual suspects will be out there getting the podiums and Vettel will probably be one of the best out there anyway. Vettel, Alonso, Kimi...and then it depends on what Mercedes do. I expect Lotus Renault to drift downwards towards the midfield and hope one of those teams get closer to the topteams. Would be nice if Red Bull wasn't a second a lap faster than the rest...

[Lazy]

For starters, I think your first sentence is flawed. I mean - How does someone being frustrated at a specific set conditions have a disadvantage to those who are perhaps not?

 

Take the last race for example....... using the very person you cite. Hamilton was vocally annoyed at having to play the long game - but he did it perfectly well and maximised the result for his team. Where as Jenson........

I meant frustrated as in not being able to go flat out the whole race which is his main strength something most of his fans would agree with I think.

 

Lets not make this a JB v LH thread

[Shiroo]

I actually expect Kimi to suffer at start a little because:

 

1) He doesn't work in simulator AFAIK

2) Tyres are supposed to be even harder, so his problems with the tyres might be bigger than now they were

3) Car being a dog / engine being a dog or totally unfit for his style, yet good for Alonso

[Spillage]

The answer, I think, will be like every time there's a major rule change; the good drivers will do well, the not-so-good ones less so.

Edited by Spillage, 22 November 2013 - 11:25.

[Gorma]

I actually expect Kimi to suffer at start a little because:

 

1) He doesn't work in simulator AFAIK

2) Tyres are supposed to be even harder, so his problems with the tyres might be bigger than now they were

3) Car being a dog / engine being a dog or totally unfit for his style, yet good for Alonso

Simulator is more of a development tool than setup tool. Fine tuning the setup is still done on the track. 

Kimi does not have problems with tyre hardness. It's a problem of getting the tyres up to temperature for the qualifying run and that more a setup issue.

If the car is a dog then there are no winners... only losers. If the car does not fit Kimi then he is still pretty fast as seen with Lotus and Ferrari. in the past. 

[Gorma]

The answer, I think, will be like every time there's a major rule change; the good drivers will do well, the not-so-good ones less so.

That's right. The rules, teams and tyres have changed multiple times since 2001 and still we have the same guys on top.

[HP]

Last time we had such a discussion (it was tire related) I was completely wrong, This time I don't have even a clue until they drive the new cars.

[Lazy]

That's right. The rules, teams and tyres have changed multiple times since 2001 and still we have the same guys on top.

Really? Last time there was a rule change a team came out of nowhere with an unfancied driver and won both championships, then a new team with a new driver came along and dominated for 4 seasons. I'm not sure your theory holds.

 

edit: Schumacher isn't doing as well as he was then either

Edited by Lazy, 22 November 2013 - 11:56.

[maverick69]

I meant frustrated as in not being able to go flat out the whole race which is his main strength something most of his fans would agree with I think.

 

Lets not make this a JB v LH thread

 

Not making it a JB v LH - just quoting the names you mentioned.

 

And sure, LH is a "flat out" driver. But like I said, it doesn't meant that those of his ilk cannot do the long game - as shown last weekend...... and as per last year for that matter where he should have been WDC hadn't it been for the weird and wonderful ways that McLaren managed to throw the title.

 

So. As per usual it will come down to the characteristics of the cars - but even more so than in recent years......because you could be the most sensitive, cerebral driver out there...... but if your car lunches its tyers by its very nature then there will simply be nothing that you can do.

Edited by maverick69, 22 November 2013 - 11:54.

[noikeee]

This is the sort of topic that is really interesting, but very "invisible" in racing. Even the most informed technical guys around here seem to have no idea.

 

Let me explain - in a sport like football who I also follow, for example, the strengths and weaknesses of every athlete are very obvious. A player whose strength is merely pace, thrives in games where there is space behind the defence; a player whose strenght is agility and close control of the ball is at a premium when there is little space as he's the one who can unlock the game. This is all very visible and logical watching a game.

 

In racing it's very difficult to see even in onboard cameras who is quick and who isn't under certain conditions; there is an awful lot of misinformation - who is good and who isn't with understeer, oversteer, throttle control, late braking, tyre management, seems to change from pundit to pundit, fanboy to fanboy. Moreover these technical nuances of the differences from car to car, from track conditions, from different regulations, also seem to be interpreted differently by different people. I was under the impression that throttle application was going to be more sensitive next year because of the turbos. But people are saying the opposite here in this thread, that the torque curves are going to be flatter hence less abrupt and sensitive? It's all very confusing. The reasons why certain driver and cars are quicker than others are very unclear, it all seems a bit voodoo. They pluck their speed out of magical hats. There's a reason why car tricks are secretive yes, but I still think these things should be clearer to the average tech-interested fan.

 

To make it even worse, the people that do understand driving styles and are capable of analysing these things, then go on hyping drivers' skills beyond all reason, to the point it no longer feels like analysis but rather like magazine-selling hype and/or fanboyism. I'm looking at you Peter Windsor.

[Lazy]

Not making it a JB v LH - just quoting the names you mentioned.

 

And sure, LH is a "flat out" driver. But like I said, it doesn't meant that those of his ilk cannot do the long game - as shown last weekend...... and as per last year for that matter where he should have been WDC hadn't it been for the weird and wonderful ways that McLaren managed to throw the title.

 

So. As per usual it will come down to the characteristics of the cars - but even more so in recent years......because you could be the most sensitive, cerebral driver out there...... but if your car lunches its tyers by its very nature then there will simply be nothing that you can do.

Sure but I think his chances would improve if we had granite tyres and refuelling.

 

As for the tyres I'm hoping Pirelli will go conservative next year and they will be a non issue, we will have to find something else to whinge about, I'm sure we'll manage

[Spillage]

Really? Last time there was a rule change a team came out of nowhere with an unfancied driver and won both championships, then a new team with a new driver came along and dominated for 4 seasons. I'm not sure your theory holds.

edit: Schumacher isn't doing as well as he was then either

True, but this is a discussion about drivers, not teams. All five world champions on the grid in 2014 were race winners before 2009 and continued to perform strongly after the rule changes. The cream just has a tendency to rise to the top in F1

[maverick69]

Sure but I think his chances would improve if we had granite tyres and refuelling.

 

As for the tyres I'm hoping Pirelli will go conservative next year and they will be a non issue, we will have to find something else to whinge about, I'm sure we'll manage

 

I don't think his chances would improve - but he'd defo be a lot, lot happier. His real strength will come out if he gets the brakes as he likes them next year (assuming Merc have a decent package).

 

Funnily enough, Ant Davidson was just talking about the issue you raised during FP1 - and he reckons that the new regs will suit Lewis perfectly! Lol.

 

I guess we all see it differently........

[Lazy]

I don't think his chances would improve - but he'd defo be a lot, lot happier. His real strength will come out if he gets the brakes as he likes them next year (assuming Merc have a decent package).

 

Funnily enough, Ant Davidson was just talking about the issue you raised during FP1 - and he reckons that the new regs will suit Lewis perfectly! Lol.

 

I guess we all see it differently........

Did he say why?

[fabr68]

Drivers driving the Red Bull car will benefit,  drivers not driving the Red Bull car will suffer.

[maverick69]

Did he say why?

Did he say why?

The cars will be very tail happy, even with smooth throttle control, because of the torque (talked about his diesel Lemans car) - and the tyres are likely to be very robust because of this. He will get to "express himself" etc.

[Suntrek]

Drivers who can adapt will benefit. Drivers who can't will not. As always.

 

That said, even  a driver who can adapt until he gets blue in the face will be nowhere unless his car is up for it.  As always.

[Lazy]

On the face of it the all out racers ( Lewis, Pastor etc) may be frustrated by the extra strategic necessities imposed on them and the more long view, calculated approach (Jenson, Kimi etc) should be an advantage.

 

But maybe the reduced df and extra torque will be an advantage to the racers who are generally happier with a loose rear end.

 

Will Seb lose his corner exit advantage without the EBD?

 

Or could it be that drivers more in the middle of that spectrum (eg Fred) will have a better balance?

 

Reliablilty is going to be a huge factor, so the more mechanically sympathetic drivers may have an edge.

 

Drivers who use less fuel should reap the benefits from the 100kg limit, a heavy right foot could be disastrous.

 

 

The cars will be very tail happy, even with smooth throttle control, because of the torque (talked about his diesel Lemans car) - and the tyres are likely to be very robust because of this. He will get to "express himself" etc.

He's read my post obviously

 

As a Jenson fan I hope he's right about the tyres,  more robust tyres should be less temp sensitive.

[sennafan24]

I do not like Anthony Davidson, he lacks the likability of Herbert, and the good looks of Pinkham. But I really hope he is right.

 

Alain Prost without naming drivers names said what Lazy wrote about the regulations favoring more calculated drivers, Prost usually has a good read on those sort of things. 

[P123]

The driver that will benefit most will be the one with the best car and most fuel efficient engine.

[Miggeex]

Vettel may be scarily adaptable to the changes no matter how much I don't want it  The driver he's become in past 2 years is just crazy. 

 

The experienced drivers benefits since they can give very accurate feedback. They've driven so many different good or bad cars and they'll feel if something is not right in the first tests already.

 

And vice versa. 

[discover23]

No one has a clue.. every time we have these changes, people make the same predictions and they always end up being wrong.. lol - I recall when they banned traction control.. . those who people through would adapt faster where the ones who started spinning more often..

[Rinehart]

Yes but best at what?

Er, the complete race driving thang! 

 

In all seriousness, I am not a subscriber to the notion that different regulations (yet still fundamentally a balance of speed and strategy) will really have an effect over a season. The best drivers these days are the ones who can combine speed and strategy and that will still be the case next year.

[senna da silva]

This topic is flawed in the OP. Lewis proved in 2012 he was better than Button at managing his tyres.

 

However, until the cars hit the track in anger we'll not know the nature of the beasts and whom they'll suit.

[TomNokoe]

This "clever" "calculating" stuff is so over played. The drivers in the fastest cars will battle it out. The Merc and RB drivers will still be mighty in quali, Alonso will still retain his genius during hectic race starts, Button will still be dumbfoundingly correct in mixed conditions.

[Atreiu]

Button will definitely benefit.

[Lazy]

This topic is flawed in the OP. Lewis proved in 2012 he was better than Button at managing his tyres.

 

However, until the cars hit the track in anger we'll not know the nature of the beasts and whom they'll suit.

There is no mention of tyres in the OP.

[Lazy]

This "clever" "calculating" stuff is so over played. The drivers in the fastest cars will battle it out. The Merc and RB drivers will still be mighty in quali, Alonso will still retain his genius during hectic race starts, Button will still be dumbfoundingly correct in mixed conditions.

Yeah well, you would say that ;)

[Sanman59]

According to Filipe Massa it is like driving in the rain!

Smooth drivers like Button should do well.

http://grandprix247....icult-to-drive/

[maverick69]

According to Filipe Massa it is like driving in the rain!Smooth drivers like Button should do well.http://grandprix247....icult-to-drive/

Will they? What about the hairy arsed drivers? Good old Gilles could peddle a car in the wet you know.......

[sopa]

The best ones will benefit and the worst ones will suffer...

 

Sums it up.

 

Does anyone expect Chilton, van der Garde, Gutierrez, et al, to suddenly become best drivers just because rules changed and it could "suit their strengths"?

 

Hardly, we will still see the same drivers performing well as we usually do. And even if there is a slight performance shift by someone, it can easily be explained away with something else. For example Hamilton's 2011 isn't explained by the switch to Pirelli, but by him losing his mind a bit. And a year later in 2012 he was very good on the same Pirellis anyway.

[sopa]

Drivers driving the Red Bull car will benefit,  drivers not driving the Red Bull car will suffer.

 

That's another way of putting it. Though with the added variable in engines, maybe drivers with Mercedes engines will benefit, if the engine is as good as rumoured.

[DrF]

Drivers with recent experience of driving with low displacement turbo engines should have a bit of an edge.