36 replies to this topic

[SonnyViceR]

There are quite a few series around that have the (healthy?) dilemma of actually having a headliner event that is even more famous and appreciated than the series itself, but I thought that these three especially are prime examples of that. So what do you think?

 

Relevant discussion regarding the topic in general is also welcome.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 22 November 2013 - 17:34.

[jcbc3]

Voted winning the big race on all three.. I was most unsure about the Bathurst/Supercar questi0on. But the other two I'm definite about.

[SonnyViceR]

Yeah I think Bathurst is indeed the most difficult out of these to pick, while Le Mans is obviously the easiest no matter what would be running against it - there is nothing grander than winning the world's greatest motor race. With Indy it could be tougher if the championship was still back in the glory days of American open wheelers - then it might be a tie - but with the current state it's without a doubt the 500.

 

Generally speaking, marquee events are the bigger attraction for me than series.

[mnmracer]

Always the championship, too much can happen in a single race to judge drivers on that.

That's like saying never winning the Monaco Grand Prix reflects badly on Jim Clark.

Or that twice Indy 500 winner Arie Luyendyk is a better driver than Indycar champions like Nigel Mansell or Tony Stewart.

 

It's nice for the headlines, it's a nice moment in the spotlight, but the championship is what matters.

[August]

I really don't know much about Aussie racing so I don't say anything about Bathurst.

 

In general, I think the series championship tells more about who's really the best driver. Good luck can give you a single win in a prestigious race, bad luck can cost a win. Le Mans is probably the greatest single race in the world and much more prestigious than the WEC. Winning the WEC but not Le Mans is like a tennis player reaching #1 ranking without ever winning a Grand Slam tournament.

 

In IndyCar's case, I wouldn't rate the marque race so high. Probably the 500 is the greatest win for any driver in IndyCar. But as a team boss hiring a driver, I'd look at the championship results, the title winner is the one who can have good races on a constant basis.

[Disgrace]

I'd be surprised if any participant within any of those series would value a single race over a championship, unless a majority of their sponsorship came from the additional exposure of the main event. Would Ferrari rather win the Monaco Grand Prix than the championship?

[SonnyViceR]

I'd be surprised if any participant within any of those series would value a single race over a championship, unless a majority of their sponsorship came from the additional exposure of the main event. Would Ferrari rather win the Monaco Grand Prix than the championship?

 

That's one thing, but with Le Mans it's pretty much the other way round, the series (and most of the participants) wouldn't exist without the 24 hours. Most of the fans don't even know there's some championship around it, even in the old WSC days. Big manufacturers center 99 % of their efforts for that one race and the rest comes second in importance

 

From my experience, pretty much nobody - including media - cares or remembers if you win the LMP2 of your championship (whether it's WEC/ILMC/whatever or one of the regional series), but if you won the same thing at Le Mans it's massive deal. And even as a fan I have hard time remembering who won what category in these series last year but LM winners from years and years ago immediately drop to mind, because they matter...

 

I mean, we can give excuses for the associated series being new and whatnot but it was the same with the old World Sportscar Championship - which was more high calibre by the way - people cared more about Le Mans throughout it's existence, as did the manufacturers and teams and drivers

Edited by SonnyViceR, 22 November 2013 - 20:31.

[Nonesuch]

Important is hard to quantify.

 

The unrest in the American open wheel series makes the Indianapolis 500 the winner in the first poll for me. This might chance as/if the new IndyCar championship becomes stronger, more established, and builds a history of its own.

 

The Le Mans 24 Hours is the big one, there's no question about it. The FIA WEC is obviously very new, and I'm quite happy with how it's taking shape, but at the moment the Le Mans win has to be the more important victory.

 

I don't know enough about the last poll. I voted for the Bathurst 1000 because I have, on occasion, seen parts of it. It's hardly a compelling argument, though.

Edited by Nonesuch, 22 November 2013 - 20:31.

[Disgrace]

That's one thing, but with Le Mans it's pretty much the other way round, the series (and most of the participants) wouldn't exist without the 24 hours. Most of the fans don't even know there's some championship around it, even in the old WSC days. Big manufacturers center 99 % of their efforts for that one race and the rest comes second in importance

 

From my experience, pretty much nobody - including media - cares or remembers if you win the LMP2 of your championship (whether it's WEC/ILMC/whatever or one of the regional series), but if you won the same thing at Le Mans it's massive deal. And even as a fan I have hard time remembering who won what category in these series last year but LM winners from years and years ago immediately drop to mind, because they matter...

 

I understand this, partly thanks to myself only taking a real interest in sports cars during Le Mans season, but genuine question, what about from the perspective of the teams/drivers? Are drivers and sponsors more likely to be signed by winning Le Mans over the title?

Edited by Disgrace, 22 November 2013 - 20:35.

[SonnyViceR]

I understand this, partly thanks to myself only taking a real interest in sports cars during Le Mans season, but genuine question, what about from the perspective of the teams/drivers? Are drivers and sponsors more likely to be signed by winning Le Mans over the title?

 

If you asked whether Total was more happy to see Peugeot just winning Le Mans in 2009, or winning and beating Audi in every single regular round except at LM in some ILMC-championship-thingie in both 2010 & 2011*, I don't think they'd hesitated with that answer. Le Mans is the goldmine for gaining sponsorship

 

As for drivers: it's more about cars, teams and manufacturers for me so I don't really follow them really (honestly) so I'm not the person most qualified to answer that question. The driver market in sportscar racing also depends on many things like pro/am aspects and the driver ratings system that follow it, brand associations, being available at the time etc

 

You can see how much the likes of GM and Chrysler/Dodge/SRT care about the associated championship as they just skip it altogether (opting to run in the regional series), bringing the factory Corvettes and Vipers only for the big one. European / worldwide market is important for them, but just Le Mans gives them enough value

 

* Same with Porsche & Mercedes in 1998 LM & FIA GT.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 22 November 2013 - 21:12.

[wonk123]

It's the big one on all 3! For me the Bathurst 1000 was the easiest one. Apart from where someone wins a number of championships in a row, (like Red bull/888 at the moment) no one really remembers who won the championship. Not only to they remember who won Bathurst, but who didn't. This aspect to me shows it's importance. Fan can tell you things like Glenn Seton never won, and got so close, or when Dick hit the rock while leading, or crashed in Qualifying. 

[LoudHoward]

As a Webber fan, winning Monaco > everything else in the history of everything ever.

 

[MaxCrazyEddieCayer]

The big ones for me as well.

[charly0418]

D) Which is more important

 

- Winning the Korean GP

- Winning the F1 title

 

 

 

nah just kidding

[Afterburner]

Wasn't as sure about Bathurst but I would say that, at least in terms of exposure, the Indy 500 and the 24 Hours of Le Mans are certainly more famous than the championships that contain them. I'll put it to you this way: do you see sponsors advertising more often with IndyCar champions or Indy 500 winners?

[Henri Greuter]

Don't know enough about Aussie racing so I won't speak out on that.

 

The other two however: The big ones. Enough cases to support that for Indy. CART eventually went belly up after all once Ganassi Racing went for (and did win) Indy in 2000 and showed the importance Indy still had despite it was share of a nothing special championship to its CART rivals.

How many drivers who did not became Indycar champion stated their season was already a success after winning Indy?

Who won Indy in 1971 and 1972 and who was the Indycar champion that year?  (I had to look up one of the answers ands was shocked to find the results because I wasn't aware of a certain achievement.

How many great drivers within the championship with results to boost are hardly remembered while we do know who won Indy that year?

Eddie Cheever a better driver than Michael Andretti?

Enter Roger Penske: His 1983 type PC11 finished second in the 1983 "500" but was replaced by updated 1982 cars shortly after Indy for the remainer of the season since the PC11 refused to work properly. His 1995 type PC24 made one of his drivers finish second in the championship, this despite this driver failing to qualify for Indy! None of the PC24s made the field that year. Which car do you think leaves the worst taste in the mouth with Roger?

 

I know ther must be more people out here who can bring up similar cases for sportcars and Le Mans, better then I can.

But one thing I do remember: One year both Nissan and/or Mazda entered the full championship with their cars because that was needed to gain automatic entries to Le Mans.

 

As much as I like both these big events which both are part of what once was my "Grand slam" in racing, I regret that they overpower thei series they are part of so heavily as they do.

(NB: the other two events of my Grand slam were  the Monaco GP and the old style Rally de Monte Carlo, when they still had the concentration routes through Europe. By now I don't care for any of the Monte Carlo events anymore)

 

 

Henri

[DanardiF1]

I went for Championships other than Le Mans, because I don't think that should even be a scoring round of the WEC and thus is it's own 'championship' within the main series.

 

Indycar - The championship is what they are racing for, you get a lot of one-off entries for the 500 but they are either ringers going for that one win or drivers just wanting to compete in the race. If they were good enough they'd run the entire series because it's a prestigious title no matter how the series is doing overall.

 

Le Mans - shouldn't be a points-scoring round (never mind DOUBLE points which it is currently for WEC), but as it's IMO the biggest race in the world it is inherently more important than the WEC title. There's a reason the LMP cars are designed with one track in mind, and are compromised everywhere else they race.

 

V8 Supercars - Just like Indycar it's a more presitgious title than one race affords. It's the national touring car championship that happens to have one of the world's top races as part of it's calendar. If it were more important than the title then the top teams would pair their top drivers together instead of getting them a partner each, because the race win would be more important than the title.

[DanardiF1]

As a Webber fan, winning Monaco > everything else in the history of everything ever.

 

 

So Olivier Panis is one of the all-time greats too then? And World Champion Damon Hill is a nobody because he couldn't even get one Monaco win to his father's 5?

 

I love Monaco, but it's not really an arbiter of the entire championship. Flukey things can and will happen there.

[Wander]

Championships for all except Le Mans.

[wonk123]

I went for Championships other than Le Mans, because I don't think that should even be a scoring round of the WEC and thus is it's own 'championship' within the main series

 

V8 Supercars - Just like Indycar it's a more presitgious title than one race affords. It's the national touring car championship that happens to have one of the world's top races as part of it's calendar. If it were more important than the title then the top teams would pair their top drivers together instead of getting them a partner each, because the race win would be more important than the title.

 

I think the vast majority of V8 supercar fans, and all the drivers would rank Bathurst above the championship. Many even agree with your idea of LeMans, that Bathurst should be a stand alone event.

 

The main drivers did always drive together until the rules were changed to make them drive their own car, with a co-driver.

 

Ask any V8SC driver whether they would rather 1 Bathurst win, or 3 Championships, I bet few if any would pick the championships

[DanardiF1]

That's an interesting opinion, thanks.

 

Perhaps it's because I've not really grown up with Bathurst being a major event to me (only as I've reached my adult years has it got more important personally), but I've watched Le Mans since 1997 and Indycar since Mansell joined in 93.

 

Actually your proposition of making Bathurst a standalone event would be good IMO. It might encourage a wider group of drivers to come over to race it as teams would be more inclined to run extra cars seeing as it's then a non-championship event (it would mean any events in the race, one-off drivers winning etc would have no bearing on the title).

[Collombin]

Indycar - The championship is what they are racing for, you get a lot of one-off entries for the 500 but they are either ringers going for that one win or drivers just wanting to compete in the race. If they were good enough they'd run the entire series because it's a prestigious title no matter how the series is doing overall.

 

I'm not sufficiently interested in it these days to dispute this, but historically I would say things used to be very different in that case. The Indy 500 meant far more than the championship, with several top drivers just competing at Indy because it was all that mattered rather than because they weren't good enough.

 

The points system used to be in proportion to the length of the race, so Indy would be worth 5 times as many points as the standard 100 mile events that made up the bulk of the championship trail. Hence the Indy winner would automatically be in a great position to go on and win the championship (especially in seasons with just a handful of championship events), yet it wasn't uncommon for the Indy winner to not even compete in the rest of the trail. Indy had the prestige, the public awareness, the attention of advertisers and the $$$$$$$$$$$.

 

How many 500s did Foyt win? How many national championships did he win? I bet far more people know the answer to the first question than the second.

[SonnyViceR]

I cannot imagine the 500 or 1000 as not part of the championship but Le Mans should definitely be a stand-alone race, not only for practical reasons (mainly issues with auto entry granting) but for the fact that it -rightly so- overshadows the championship.

[wonk123]

http://www.motoring....e-destiny-39363

 

Craig Lowndes on Bathurst Vs Championship

[Nemo1965]

My take:

 

Le Mans more important than the championship

 

Indy 500 more important that the championship

 

F1 Monaco victory more important than any other GP in the championship (but not the championship itself)

 

Bathrust more important than the championship

[jcbc3]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/111609

 

Allan McNish disagree very much with me (and most of us for that matter).

Edited by jcbc3, 25 November 2013 - 14:41.

[Wander]

I would agree with him if I was a driver in the series. It's just as a motor sport fan that I don't give a **** about who wins the WEC.

Edited by Wander, 25 November 2013 - 14:44.

[SonnyViceR]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/111609

 

Allan McNish disagree very much with me (and most of us for that matter).

 

I actually find that comment shocking.

 

While it is a FIA WORLD championship, it's not exactly as glorious and prestigious as it sounds. Hell, even that ill fated SRO series managed to hand few of those trophies around and nobody cared. Which drivers won the 2011 FIA GT1 World Championship? Some Nissan guys? I have no clue, and I even followed most of that season. Championship wins are always very low key in sportscar racing, you don't get any headlines from that, unlike with headliner events. Not many are going to remember who won what championship in ten years time.

 

But I guess he's well entitled to his opinion

Edited by SonnyViceR, 25 November 2013 - 16:10.

[Andrew Hope]

My take:

 

Le Mans more important than the championship

 

Indy 500 more important that the championship

 

F1 Monaco victory more important than any other GP in the championship (but not the championship itself)

 

Bathrust more important than the championship

 

This sounds about right to me.

[SonnyViceR]

I doubt Daytona 500 would get as many votes as Indy in series hierarchy.

[ArnageWRC]

I'm surprised at his views, I thought most people valued winning Le Mans above all else.

However, I can never make up my mind over this issue: yes, we all know Le Mans is great, and the BIG race for Sportscars, however, I can see it's also a 'problem'. One race, no matter how iconic, should be bigger than the sport, or define the sport. And I know I'm in a minority, but as big as the race is, it mainstream coverage, like most other non-F1 Motorsport isn't exactly huge. Maybe it's time to really throw the kitchen sink at promoting the WEC, and not just Le Mans?? Part of me is glad he's said it - as I feel if the sport is to grow, it has to have a proper successful World Championship, not just the BIG one in June.

[pingu666]

the daytona 24hours is kinda a big deal

[SonnyViceR]

the daytona 24hours is kinda a big deal

 

Well it was bigger than the championship it is (or was) part of so it sort of qualifies on this list, but you can hardly call it big when not only it's old competitor Sebring but also newborn Petit Le Mans had managed to slip by in importance by the beginning of the last decade.

 

Doesn't look particularly great for next year, for any of those three events now running under NASCAR flag

[tifosi]

I'd be surprised if any participant within any of those series would value a single race over a championship, unless a majority of their sponsorship came from the additional exposure of the main event. Would Ferrari rather win the Monaco Grand Prix than the championship?

 

  The big difference for me was that in F1, Monte Carlo is just one of many races.  Indy and Lemans are very unique events that had series grow around them.  They both draw entries that aren't even a part of the series.  In these two cases (I know nothing about Super V8), the two named events, are IMHO totally seperated and in most ways superior to the series itself.

[tifosi]

So Olivier Panis is one of the all-time greats too then? And World Champion Damon Hill is a nobody because he couldn't even get one Monaco win to his father's 5?

 

I love Monaco, but it's not really an arbiter of the entire championship. Flukey things can and will happen there.

 

  I think you totally missed the (not implied, but actual)

[jonpollak]

With Nemo 1965 on this also.

Jp

[wonk123]

I forgot to mention, If you ask anyone in Australia who won "The Great Race" they will tell you who won Bathurst!