360 replies to this topic

[DrF]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/25035783


"Time will tell us," he says. "There are many years [to go in his career].

"He is 26 years old, so when he will have a car like the others, if he wins, he will have a great recognition and be one of the legends in F1. When one day he has a car like the others and he is fourth, fifth, seventh, these four titles will be bad news for him because people will take these four titles even in a worse manner than they are doing now.

"So there are interesting times for Sebastian coming."



So Alonso's back to back titles had nothing to do with Michelin or Mercedes unreliability or the Mass Damper or simply having one of the best cars in a very well-run team?

The fact that Alonso has failed to win WDC's when he has "a car like the others" doesn't diminish his titles, so why should it be the case for Seb?

Mods:If this article is already being discussed elswhere, feel free to merge.

[JensonWDC]

FAIRnando

[maverick69]

Well. He wasn't gonna run around the track and win the WDCs was he?

[TomNokoe]

He has a point. Seb is a legend "in waiting" to a degree. We know he's good but we don't know how good.

[Miggeex]

Who doesn't owe their titles to their cars?  Either for the car being just faster than others or more reliable than the car of opponents 

Edited by Miggeex, 23 November 2013 - 11:27.

[IamFasterthanU]

Well, I totally agree with what Fernando is saying here. I think 2006 WDC proves the point he is making, it wasn't the car (Both MS and he had equal cars..nearly the same amount of misfortune) that made him the champion. Right from 2010 it has been the car for Red Bull. Good enough at all the tracks and unbeatable at multiple tracks.

 

People say F1 drivers are robots but when they speak their mind they are criticized.

[Seanspeed]

Sounds like he's talking about Vettel's recognition by people in general.  I don't think he's saying that's his personal opinion. 

Edited by Seanspeed, 23 November 2013 - 11:31.

[swerved]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/25035783


"Time will tell us," he says. "There are many years [to go in his career].

"He is 26 years old, so when he will have a car like the others, if he wins, he will have a great recognition and be one of the legends in F1. When one day he has a car like the others and he is fourth, fifth, seventh, these four titles will be bad news for him because people will take these four titles even in a worse manner than they are doing now.

"So there are interesting times for Sebastian coming."



So Alonso's back to back titles had nothing to do with Michelin or Mercedes unreliability or the Mass Damper or simply having one of the best cars in a very well-run team?

The fact that Alonso has failed to win WDC's when he has "a car like the others" doesn't diminish his titles, so why should it be the case for Seb?

Mods:If this article is already being discussed elswhere, feel free to merge.

 

 

I had thought he was done with all this kind of **** but it seems like its still hurting.

 

What an objectionable and obnoxious piece of work he is.

[Sin]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/25035783


"Time will tell us," he says. "There are many years [to go in his career].

"He is 26 years old, so when he will have a car like the others, if he wins, he will have a great recognition and be one of the legends in F1. When one day he has a car like the others and he is fourth, fifth, seventh, these four titles will be bad news for him because people will take these four titles even in a worse manner than they are doing now.

"So there are interesting times for Sebastian coming."



So Alonso's back to back titles had nothing to do with Michelin or Mercedes unreliability or the Mass Damper or simply having one of the best cars in a very well-run team?

The fact that Alonso has failed to win WDC's when he has "a car like the others" doesn't diminish his titles, so why should it be the case for Seb?

Mods:If this article is already being discussed elswhere, feel free to merge.

 

and he is back to it again... I think Alonso got multiple personality disorder... one day he says Seb is the best at the moment not because of his car (to a german magazine) then he says this..... again...

 

meeeh and some people wonder why people think he is playing psycho games

[DutchQuicksilver]

A bit of a sore loser. As much as I don't like Sebastian, he's wiped the floor with Webber who's in the same car. Take away Vettel and you don't see Webber having the last four titles. Yes, it's down to the car, but Vettel also has the extra speed to cope with it, unlike his teammate in the same car.

[Borko]

Every driver who wins the title owes it to the car.

[kimister]

Why did he has to make such comments? If there is a question from reporter about it, he can simply congratulate Vettel for what he has achieved so far and should let it go just as it is and not be involved in such arguments or in critisim of others. I am aware that he is just expressing his opinion on Vettel honestly, but this kind of statements can damage himself in the future. In addition , I certainly do not agree with him since every champion should have a very good car to be able to win his tropies in the end.

Edited by kimister, 23 November 2013 - 11:39.

[Kelateboy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/25035783


"Time will tell us," he says. "There are many years [to go in his career].

"He is 26 years old, so when he will have a car like the others, if he wins, he will have a great recognition and be one of the legends in F1. When one day he has a car like the others and he is fourth, fifth, seventh, these four titles will be bad news for him because people will take these four titles even in a worse manner than they are doing now.

"So there are interesting times for Sebastian coming."

 

Nothing controversial about what was said by Alonso. Vettel will also be judged on his future performance, and not just from his 4 straight WDCs.

 

That is why he needs to make a very screwd decision later on in his career. If RBR turn out to be a hit in the turbo era, then there is no reason whatsoever for him to ply his trade elsewhere. Otherwise, he can look for better opportunity in 2016 possibly with Ferrari or Mercedes GP.

[OO7]

Nothing controversial about what was said by Alonso. Vettel will also be judged on his future performance, and not just from his 4 straight WDCs.

 

That is why he needs to make a very screwd decision later on in his career. If RBR turn out to be a hit in the turbo era, then there is no reason whatsoever for him to ply his trade elsewhere. Otherwise, he can look for better opportunity in 2016 possibly with Ferrari or Mercedes GP.

And we don't even have a transcript of the question that was posed to him.  The title of the thread is leading.

[Group B]

A bit of a sore loser. As much as I don't like Sebastian, he's wiped the floor with Webber who's in the same car. Take away Vettel and you don't see Webber having the last four titles. Yes, it's down to the car, but Vettel also has the extra speed to cope with it, unlike his teammate in the same car.

 

Quite. I probably rate Fred as just about the best driver, even if his qualifying has been a bit weak lately, but off-track it really is difficult to like the guy when he continues to play laments for himself on that repetitive violin.

[LuckyStrike1]

Fernando Alonso. 

 

Sour grapes

 

Bitter 

 

Crashgate

 

Spygate 

 

Brings six tenths to the team 

[TIFOlonSO]

Sure I would like to see Vettel with same or worse machinery as others and watch the results.

This 4 titles are due to the superior car he has and he did a pretty slow job in 2010 and 2012 nearly losing those titles.

 

A bit like Mansell, champion in a 1992 boring season, but did a excellent job in 86/87 (and actually losing those 2 years).

[RedOne]

He was asked does he consider Vettel a great and he gave an answer, that I see no problem with. It's what people like Martin Brundle have been saying. Until they see him line up with super strong team-mate or have a car that's not the fastest it's hard to say how great he will become that's why Alonso says time will tell.

This title the OP has put into Alonso's mouth is what's really bringing out the negative reaction on people bashing him for it here. What Vettel has achieved is remarkable, but it's hard to know how good he is until he is tested. Ricciardo will be interesting to watch to see if he can match him eventually which I'm sure he will be trying to, even beat him at some point.

Edited by RedOne, 23 November 2013 - 11:50.

[amppatel]

Alonso Cracking

[jstrains]

Every driver who wins the title owes it to the car.

 Even Fernando does (correct me if I am frong)

[RedOne]

Nothing controversial about what was said by Alonso. Vettel will also be judged on his future performance, and not just from his 4 straight WDCs.

That is why he needs to make a very screwd decision later on in his career. If RBR turn out to be a hit in the turbo era, then there is no reason whatsoever for him to ply his trade elsewhere. Otherwise, he can look for better opportunity in 2016 possibly with Ferrari or Mercedes GP.

Exactly. Nice to see people actually read his words without there cat claws out ready to pounce at anything he says.

[RedOne]

Every driver who wins the title owes it to the car.

To a T

[jedioriginal]

Basic Alonso stuff. Everyone else is crap, except himself.

[F.M.]

Difference is, Seb has taken the opportunities he had to take the titles in the last 4 years. Alonso could and should have done so in Abu Dhabi, but failed miserably. Also last year, Seb with a badly damaged car did everything exactly right to seal the championship. He won that one because of his cool and focused head. Alonso and his team in the sort-like situation in Abu Dhabi panicked badly and lost the championship themselves.

 

Seb had to fight hard for at least 2 of his WDCs (he fought hard as well for the others, just that others couldn't really follow him), while Alonso has basically been gifted all of his WDCs

Edited by F.M., 23 November 2013 - 12:02.

[boldhakka]

Teams really need to publish their average downforce figures at the end of every year. 

 

Otherwise, depending on various subjective effects, such as their looks, physique, and bearing, the drivers performance will be judged in various ways. 

 

If a driver wins a WDC, there are only four scenarios that are possible:

 

1. He wins it by dramatically outscoring everyone, including his team-mate. In this scenario, people will say the car is dominant, the team-mate is poor or over the hill, and/or that he receives number #1 treatment. (Vettel 2011 and 2013)

 

2. He wins it by significantly outscoring his team-mate, but his opposition are close until the end. The team-mate's reputation is downgraded and the opposition's reputation upgraded. He gets some credit, with possible accusations of #1 treatment. (Alonso, Schumacher)

 

3. He wins by significantly outscoring his rivals, but his team-mate competes well and fights for the WDC all the way until the end. Obviously, the car was dominant. (Button 2009)

 

4. He wins, but only after a close fight between him, his team-mate, and his rivals in other cars. He gets accused of not winning convincingly enough, irrespective of the reputation of the rivals or the cars they are driving. (Kimi 2007, Vettel 2010). 

 

I think only if a driver repeats #2 a few times does his reputation become solid enough. Otherwise it's up for debate. Unfortunately, a number of parameters in the above scenarios are out of the drivers' hands and these conditions occur pretty rarely enough that we can't rely on them to judge drivers. 

[Shiroo]

I was saying the same back then, when I was in the primary school.

 

"Mom, mom, he got the better grade cause teacher likes him more!"

 

So ********, Christ.

[DanardiF1]

What I think Fernando may be insinuating is that it hasn't taken a superhuman effort driving-wise to win these titles, something that arguably he performed himself last year to drag the title battle out so long. If he thinks his driving is still to that level, then he would have a good reason to think he's driving better than Vettel (I'm not saying he is or has), but is held back by the cars he's been given by Ferrari.

[Zava]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/25035783


"Time will tell us," he says. "There are many years [to go in his career].

"He is 26 years old, so when he will have a car like the others, if he wins, he will have a great recognition and be one of the legends in F1. When one day he has a car like the others and he is fourth, fifth, seventh, these four titles will be bad news for him because people will take these four titles even in a worse manner than they are doing now.

"So there are interesting times for Sebastian coming."

hmmm...

Alonso had the best cars in 2005-6 when he won his WDCs (he confirmed), check.

he was 26 years old after those WDC years, check.

he had cars like others, check.

he didn't win (as in winning WDCs) in them, check.

he was 4th in 2011, 5th in 2008, manyth in 2009 (OK, looked it up, 9th), in "cars like the others", check.

 

bad news for him, check?   is Alonso sending us the message that he himself is not an all time great?

Edited by Zava, 23 November 2013 - 12:05.

[Molo19]

I'm not a particularly big fan of Alonso, but that doesn't make him wrong. Seb is an excellent driver these days, but frankly I believe that's down to Red Bull making him one. Vettel's success has been a virtuous circle as Gary Anderson put it. Every year he has less to prove and he can take things in a more and more relaxed mindset, while time is running out for the rest of the top guys.

 

If he were not a Red Bull driver, I don't believe he would have won a single championship title, let alone several. If Lewis or Fernando had been driving the RB5 derivatives, not only would I expect them to have been even more dominant, but having had a fair chance of beating Jenson to title in 2009. Vettel recently suggested that RB5 was good enough to do that.

 

Vettel's a wonderful driver, but I can't picture anyone considering him all-time great nevermind the greatest had he been anything besides a Red Bull man. Someone else would have got that recognition instead.

[prty]

Well he didn't say anything new or outrageous did he? That's the simple truth.

[rockdude101]

I totally agree with Alonso here - cannot see/understand the fuss over his comments really. It is what everybody thinks - how good is Vettel without Red Bull?

[fabr68]

Some people should take some reading comprehension classes and read the article 3,4, or 5 times again. He is answering the question if Vettel can be considered as good as Fangio, Prost and MS.

I agree that I do not see Vettel at that level yet. Fangio won 5 titles in four different teams in his 40s. Prost won four titles after teamming up with every single world champion superstar of his generation. M. Schumacher took five years to turn around 20 years of failure at Ferrari.

So landing in a Newey car and collecting four tittles is a great achievement. But you cant compare it to the drivers above....yet.

Edited by fabr68, 23 November 2013 - 12:11.

[Juggles]

Oh dear, the Vettel apologists are in full defence mode already. Read Alonso's actual words for a change:

 

"He is 26 years old, so when he will have a car like the others, if he wins, he will have a great recognition and be one of the legends in F1. When one day he has a car like the others and he is fourth, fifth, seventh, these four titles will be bad news for him because people will take these four titles even in a worse manner than they are doing now."

 

Alonso is exactly right. He is just saying that we don't have enough information on Vettel yet to annoint him an F1 legend. As Alonso says, it's perfectly possible that when Vettel doesn't have a car advantage he will still be at the front. Of course, it's also possible that a scenario like the first half of 2012 could happen; reduced rear downforce and suddenly Vettel doesn't look exceptional at all. So much of our perception of drivers is governed by the regulations they drive to. There's every chance those perceptions will have changed again by the end of 2014.

[Gilles4Ever]

Sadly it looks like most have read only the opening post and responded to that rather than reading the actual article linked. 

[Juggles]

I'm not a particularly big fan of Alonso, but that doesn't make him wrong. Seb is an excellent driver these days, but frankly I believe that's down to Red Bull making him one. Vettel's success has been a virtuous circle as Gary Anderson put it. Every year he has less to prove and he can take things in a more and more relaxed mindset, while time is running out for the rest of the top guys.

 

If he were not a Red Bull driver, I don't believe he would have won a single championship title, let alone several. If Lewis or Fernando had been driving the RB5 derivatives, not only would I expect them to have been even more dominant, but having had a fair chance of beating Jenson to title in 2009. Vettel recently suggested that RB5 was good enough to do that.

 

Vettel's a wonderful driver, but I can't picture anyone considering him all-time great nevermind the greatest had he been anything besides a Red Bull man. Someone else would have got that recognition instead.

 

I disagree, I can absolutely picture myself considering him an all-time great, but not yet. That is all Alonso is saying. Unless anyone is contending Alonso's assumption that Red Bull has had a car better than the others for the last four seasons (and before you say McLaren 2012 I said best, not fastest).

 

Edit - I do completely agree that Vettel would be a 0 times WDC had he not been driving a Red Bull the last four years. Also, I think Hamilton and Alonso would have won the 2010 and 2012 championships more resoundingly than Vettel if they had been paired with Webber at Red Bull but I don't think any driver would have won either the 2011 or 2013 championships as resoundingly as Vettel did (particularly 2013, really excellent).

Edited by Juggles, 23 November 2013 - 12:20.

[prty]

Teams really need to publish their average downforce figures at the end of every year. 

 

That is a great idea actually, but teams don't need to publish it. Equally as they are thermal cameras, they can fit some pressure sensors in the tarmac, in high speed points of the circuit. That way everyone can put in perspective the result.

 

If it's good for what F1 wants to sell us, and Bernie's proclaimed successor, that's an entirely different question

 

[sergeym]

So what if it is down to the car? Alonso has not won anything in lesser machinery than Renault in 05-06.

 

It's not like you can bring HRT level car to the podium just because you are better driver. It's pretty much impossible to be on top without the best car (and by best i mean both fast and reliable), unless your competitors make mistakes. And Vettel makes less and less mistakes in recent years.  

[Sin]

I disagree, I can absolutely picture myself considering him an all-time great, but not yet. That is all Alonso is saying. Unless anyone is contending Alonso's assumption that Red Bull has had a car better than the others for the last four seasons (and before you say McLaren 2012 I said best, not fastest).

 

that's exactly what I'm questioning not in regard to this season or 2011 but to 2012, I didnt watch 2010 so can't say anything about that... but 2012 the Red Bull did definitly NOT seem like the best car to me

[apoka]

My impression is that Vettel knows very well what he owes to a car - and that helps him to become one of the most successful drivers.

 

[st99]

He showed how good he was in the Toro Rosso but back then nobody cared and now they don't remember it.

Fernando himself said in 2008 that he believed that Vettel was better than Hamilton because he had started in poor cars and learned the hard way, but now he says the contrary...

Edited by st99, 23 November 2013 - 12:22.

[swerved]

Sadly it looks like most have read only the opening post and responded to that rather than reading the actual article linked. 

 

I read the entire article, and then posted my opinion, I've just re-read it and see nothing to warrant me changing that opinion.

[Baddoer]

Fair enough. Better still - he owes his titles to Newey.

[HP]

 

About this discussion

Edited by HP, 23 November 2013 - 12:33.

[Kelateboy]

Teams really need to publish their average downforce figures at the end of every year. 

 

And the horsepower figure of each engine too....

[rockdude101]

So what if it is down to the car? Alonso has not won anything in lesser machinery than Renault in 05-06.

 

It's not like you can bring HRT level car to the podium just because you are better driver. It's pretty much impossible to be on top without the best car (and by best i mean both fast and reliable), unless your competitors make mistakes. And Vettel makes less and less mistakes in recent years.  

 

Other drivers have.

[apoka]

Of course, it's also possible that a scenario like the first half of 2012 could happen; reduced rear downforce and suddenly Vettel doesn't look exceptional at all.

 

A small remark to add to your post: I followed Vettel closely in 2012. He had issues to be sufficiently confident with the car to squeeze out the best qualy laps (they were still good laps though) and the initial developments didn't help him. However, his race pace was exceptional throughout the year. 

[seahawk]

Imho what he said is perfectly reasonable. He does not say Vettel needs to win a title with an inferior car, he says he needs to be in the WDC hunt, even if his car is just equal or a little worse than the cars of his rivals. I think this is correct. Senna, Schumacher and also Alonso showed that they are force in the WDC even when the cars are not the best in the field. And while I do see no indication that Vettel is not on that level, there were and are other drivers with similar skills who often fumble if the car is bad.

[SpaMaster]

First of all, it was a stupid question to ask Alonso. It was clearly a needle-question and not a honest one.  to BBC Sport. Their motorsport section is clearly not up to the level of their general standards.

 

Next, Alonso is quite a humble man, isn't he? Even if he thinks Vettel's titles are more to do with his car, I can't believe he says things that puts him in bad light. Or, may be he is feeling insecure and trying to gather public opinion and support.  The honest answer to that question would have been, "It's not for me to answer". Clearly, as a fellow competitor and an equally worthy one, that question should have never been asked, and, Alonso should have been smart enough to realize the same and answer the same.

 

Also, it is not about working harder. I am sure the people at Ferrari, McLaren, Sauber, Lotus, etc. are working as hard as Red Bull. Not exactly chilling their whatever in pool like Vettel says. It is about working smarter. We will see.

[fabr68]

I had thought he was done with all this kind of **** but it seems like its still hurting.

What an objectionable and obnoxious piece of work he is.

Really, so Vettel = Fangio?

Now that must be some good "****"

[Kelateboy]

Other drivers have.

 

Mark Webber, in his debut in F1, took 5th place in Australia 2002 in a Minardi. Not exactly a podium position but mighty close.

 

Alonso was also in a Minardi.