12 replies to this topic

[Magoo]

This one is a special treat. This wonderful old film short gives us a rare look inside a classic British engine, the 1971 Jaguar V12, and better yet, it features two of Britain's greatest engine men: Walter Hassan and Harry Mundy... a big deal for me, and a big deal for many of you, I bet. It's neat to watch and listen as these two talk engines. 

 

Video: Inside the Jaguar V12 | Mac's Motor City Garage.com 

 

 

 

[Magoo]

I really like this video because it's the closest thing we will have to meeting Hassan and Mundy in the flesh. Imagine what that would be like. 

[mariner]

I haven't met either gentlemen in the flesh but I have met Mike Costin who is still very switched on at 85 years old.

 

He does admit to being a bit " mutt and jeff", cockney slang for deaf but after all those dyno runs I'm not surprised.

 

He was trained as an engineer apprentice at the De Haviland aircraft company so he does have formal enginering training but one remark he made will always stick in my mind.

 

" We weren't clever enough to go to University" - wonderful from one of the giants of race enginering!

[desmo]

He probably would never even be given the chance today without the necessary paper "credential". 

[indigoid]

More impeccably dressed gentlemen talking about cars. Love it! Not sure which I like more - labcoats or suits

[Lee Nicolle]

Gee talk about the interviewer leading the interviewees!
And some porky pies. An iron block is 122lb heavier, and 9-1 compression needs 102 octane fuel. Yeah right!
In hindsight, though even in the day the 12 cylinder pussycat engine was a complex, thirsty, hard to service device. And being a Jag leaked oil.Twice as much as the 6?
Maybe they should have looked at the US V8s they were competing with. Far simpler, more economical and often more powerfull too. That is why so many Jags have Chevs especially, though Fords, Mopars and even Leyland P76s have been fitted by multiples. In the past a brief glance underneath normally ascertained what was in it. Oil everywhere meant the Jag!!
The carby version was complex, the efi version was worse.
The much vaunted electronic ignition too was very often a problem. Though what they say about no timing changes etc is true,,, if they used a Bosch system!
As for the 10 foot long timing chain,,that was successful,, not. A chain per bank would have been simpler and more reliable. Even better ofcourse a belt. Though with a Jags oil leaks maybe not.
Ofcouse if the engine had all its problems fixed they may be a gutsy lump to push around big pommy lumps. But few have achieved that!
I have driven quite a few XJ12s and XJS.70s and early 80s. With the 12s. [before it was replaced with a Chev]I would much sooner drive an XJ6! And I NEVER wanted to own one, though they always drove ok, looked smart and for the day were quite comfortable. Though most had the Lucas curse with so many things not working,,apart from the engine,, windows, lights, A/C etc. Probably only one make worse with electrics. Fiat!
The biggest problem with the lighter Chev conversion has always been the conversion quality. And some engines fitted were pretty average too. Though a $500 Chev is still a lot better asset than a $5000 oil leak! I have driven a few with decent Chevs, using GM trannys and they were magic. Though many Jags have fairly short diff ratios. Really meaning an overdrive trans is required.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 27 November 2013 - 09:37.

[Magoo]

More impeccably dressed gentlemen talking about cars. Love it! Not sure which I like more - labcoats or suits

 

It has been suggested that some quantities of cigars and port were consumed after the filming. 

[Lee Nicolle]

It has been suggested that some quantities of cigars and port were consumed after the filming.

Possibly during!

[mariner]

One other thing is that Harry Mundy was not only a top engine designer but was Technical Editor of Autocar. Charles Bulmer was a racer and another technical editor who once covered three pages of Motor magazine with a mathmatical analysis of CV joints and torque steer. In a similar vein John Miles was a GP driver who became an assistant technical editor and road tester for Motor then went back to Lotus to do the design of the Elan M100, described as "one of the best handling front wheel drive cars ever".

 

Its sad but nowhere today do I see that level of utter technical competence and experience in modern magazine writers ( Magoo excepted of course!).

 

I guess the reduced sales volume of the mags explains most of it - today they couldn't afford the salaries paid by OEM's.

[Magoo]

Gee talk about the interviewer leading the interviewees!
And some porky pies. An iron block is 122lb heavier, and 9-1 compression needs 102 octane fuel. Yeah right!
In hindsight, though even in the day the 12 cylinder pussycat engine was a complex, thirsty, hard to service device. And being a Jag leaked oil.Twice as much as the 6?
Maybe they should have looked at the US V8s they were competing with. Far simpler, more economical and often more powerfull too. That is why so many Jags have Chevs especially, though Fords, Mopars and even Leyland P76s have been fitted by multiples. In the past a brief glance underneath normally ascertained what was in it. Oil everywhere meant the Jag!!
The carby version was complex, the efi version was worse.
The much vaunted electronic ignition too was very often a problem. Though what they say about no timing changes etc is true,,, if they used a Bosch system!
As for the 10 foot long timing chain,,that was successful,, not. A chain per bank would have been simpler and more reliable. Even better ofcourse a belt. Though with a Jags oil leaks maybe not.
Ofcouse if the engine had all its problems fixed they may be a gutsy lump to push around big pommy lumps. But few have achieved that!
I have driven quite a few XJ12s and XJS.70s and early 80s. With the 12s. [before it was replaced with a Chev]I would much sooner drive an XJ6! And I NEVER wanted to own one, though they always drove ok, looked smart and for the day were quite comfortable. Though most had the Lucas curse with so many things not working,,apart from the engine,, windows, lights, A/C etc. Probably only one make worse with electrics. Fiat!
The biggest problem with the lighter Chev conversion has always been the conversion quality. And some engines fitted were pretty average too. Though a $500 Chev is still a lot better asset than a $5000 oil leak! I have driven a few with decent Chevs, using GM trannys and they were magic. Though many Jags have fairly short diff ratios. Really meaning an overdrive trans is required.

 

 

All true, more or less, but it doesn't make this film one bit less fascinating. All the more so, really. 

[gruntguru]

And some porky pies. An iron block is 122lb heavier, and 9-1 compression needs 102 octane fuel. Yeah right!

He would know better on the octane claim than any of us.

 

Don't forget that octane ratings vary a lot between MON, RON and (M+R)/2. Also don't forget that advances in combustion chamber design and engine management systems have changed maximum usable CR dramatically over the years.

[Magoo]

He would know better on the octane claim than any of us.

 

Don't forget that octane ratings vary a lot between MON, RON and (M+R)/2. Also don't forget that advances in combustion chamber design and engine management systems have changed maximum usable CR dramatically over the years.

 

Yes, I had sort of assumed they were talking research octane.  

[Lee Nicolle]

He would know better on the octane claim than any of us.
 
Don't forget that octane ratings vary a lot between MON, RON and (M+R)/2. Also don't forget that advances in combustion chamber design and engine management systems have changed maximum usable CR dramatically over the years.

This is the 70s, not the 30s. And I am sure Jaguar raced some serious L6 engines with really high compression. The bowl in piston works ok, it just limits mods. And limits valve size too normally. But time has proven that a combustion chamber in the head works far better. Honestly I don't think they could cast the heads with a chamber and OHC.And typical Euro the tappet adjustment is a real drama. I have seen it done. No I will not volounteer.