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2013 - F1's Worst Season Ever?


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Poll: 2013 - F1's worst season? (443 member(s) have cast votes)

2013 - F1's worst season?

  1. Yes (179 votes [39.60%])

    Percentage of vote: 39.60%

  2. No (273 votes [60.40%])

    Percentage of vote: 60.40%

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#201 Miggeex

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:22

Not even close to worst. Boring? Yes, in the last half of the season.

 

No one can blame RB though, or play down their achievements. I'm looking at other teams who really need to up their game... With at least the same resources I'd expect a bit more.

 

I didn't enjoy at all seeing Vettel escape in every race but I can't turn such words as "good job" to a negative thing. I can hear a negative tone in words "worse job".



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#202 tifosiMac

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:27

Not even close to worst. Boring? Yes, in the last half of the season.

 

No one can blame RB though, or play down their achievements. I'm looking at other teams who really need to up their game... With at least the same resources I'd expect a bit more.

 

I didn't enjoy at all seeing Vettel escape in every race but I can't turn such words as "good job" to a negative thing. I can hear a negative tone in words "worse job".

Similar the way I feel, although if I get bored of something, I associate that with being amongst the worst. Red Bull just did an amazing job in every area and unfortunately its made it boring. Good for them though and the Red Bull fans, but its easy for their achievements to get lost on reflection. I think many of us are just so sick of seeing Vettel win every week, we forget he's driven an amazing car brilliantly. I just hope it doesn't go this way next season or I'll be finding other things to do on a Sunday. :)



#203 Baddoer

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 10:09

Pretty bad



#204 Henri Greuter

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 10:15

 

It isn't about Vettel and his dominance. It is about Webber closing on Alonso for 2nd in Brazil and you have no feeling whatsoever. You just think. He is on the main straight, pushes a button and his MarioKart mushroom allows him to speed past Alonso without fuss. No bouncing BBC-pundit can make me like that move. It had absolutely no tension. Compare it to the overtakes Schumacher did on the same track in 2006. No DRS, no Pirelli misery, but genuine overtaking.
 
The first half had Monaco as dire landmark. Rosberg going at shopping speed around Monaco to save his tires.

 
Personally I think most of the negative sentiments about this season is because of the second half when Red Bull and Vettel were the ones who overcame the troubles you complain about the best of all. If the field was more even spread, no team much strunger than everyone else and everyoe suffering from the same difficultie in a same manner, I doubt if the negative feelings were so bad as they seem to be now.


Maybe the discussion takss off into a different direction but if you bring up the kind of racing being boring due to tires and DRS...
The tires is something I can live with. Everyone gets the same and that is equal to everyone. But DRS effectively makes two categories of race cars at the same time in which one gets an advantage to wjhich the other is near defenceless just because of being in that position.
Fact remains that this kind of racing by this kind of cars is enhanced by the current state of engine power and aerodynamics.

But being on this forum long enough, remembering the howls of anger about the loss of V10's, the loss of 19000 rpm screamers of engines, loss of power, the suggestion to slow the cars down....
If the powers in force would dare to create a generation of cars that are quite a bit slower then the current cars (up to 5 or 7 seconds if you like) because of a massive power reduction, massive aero restriction, I think this forum will explode!
But if it would enable races without worries on tire problems, no need for DRS to enable overtaking? Bring it on for me.
I'm old enough to have seen racing wit F1 cars of barely 500 hp and nowhere near the grip levels of the current cars.
And believe me,, the racing of that time was so much better that it more than makes up for the lack of speed compared with today for me.

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 26 November 2013 - 10:17.


#205 jimbox01

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:50

On a personal level, yes it was the worst season since I was able to start following F1, back in '89. As to whether on not it was the worst season ever for anyone else, there's no definitive answer because it all comes down to individual perceptions and personal enjoyment.

 

Part of the reason it was the worst for me, was purely down to losing access to SkyGo and not having any other way of watching - our slowbad was bad enough with Sky (peering at a tiny little box on the screen that froze every few minutes), so any other source wasn't an option.

Avoiding looking up the results before the replay wasn't too bad in the first half of the season, but after the tyre change I got into the habit of checking to make sure Vettel won, and then not bothering to watch most of the Sky only races.  So my season consisted of a few very unpredictable races in the first half of the season, with constant moaning about tyres, and then the occasional race in the second half, the results of which were entirely predictable.

 

I also found the huge gaps in the calendar, combined with only getting BBC races live, meant the season never really got going for me - it turned me into a casual viewer.

Having stuck with it through the Schumacher/Ferrari era, I know Red Bull's dominance isn't the issue, so the only thing I can put my finger on for the loss of passion (not interest), is not having the races live.

 

 

Maybe if I was a 'true' F1 fan I'd pay £500 or what ever to get Sky, but then if I was really a 'true' F1 fan I'd sell my house and spend my whole life following F1 round the world.  Fact is, it's unlikely I'd ever get planning permission for a satellite dish, and although we do have an illegal(possibly) one for freesat, I don't want to tempt fate by signing up for an annual contract - plus I resent having to pay for a whole load of stuff I don't want, just to get access to F1.

We've just recently been able to get half decent broadband through a rural scheme, so if 2014 turns out to be a cracker I might reassess the options.  Finding the most cost effective means of watching MotoGP is my main priority at the moment though.



#206 sock22

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 12:01

I've just done some analysis of the rate of retirements in 2013 and found that it had the lowest retirement rate in history. I know that Vettel's domination was probably the biggest factor in making this season boring but could this have contributed as well?



#207 ReeVe

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 12:13

Good season where excellence was demonstrated. For me boring were the seasons where nobody shone, no racing happened and someone won the title cause someone had to. 2007 and 2008. I didn't find 2009 boring even if half of it was double diffuser brawn running away with it. I find 2008 boring cause the whole season had almost as many overtakes as the 2011 Turkish Grand Prix. No I don't mind DRS, I 'd rather have DRS than 20 laps of Schumacher being stuck behind Trulli unable to overtake till Trulli pits not cause Trulli was driving exceptionally,  because aero didn't really let Schumacher stay anywhere under a second behind Trulli



#208 SenorSjon

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 13:18

I've just done some analysis of the rate of retirements in 2013 and found that it had the lowest retirement rate in history. I know that Vettel's domination was probably the biggest factor in making this season boring but could this have contributed as well?

That is an effect of driving around at 70% in addition to the rules on reliability. Bar DiResta you saw almost no personal errors during the race. Perphaps tire failures were the most common retirement. :lol:

Grosjean was the only real engine failure? Webber had accident damage.



#209 sock22

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 14:12

That is an effect of driving around at 70% in addition to the rules on reliability. Bar DiResta you saw almost no personal errors during the race. Perphaps tire failures were the most common retirement. :lol:

Grosjean was the only real engine failure? Webber had accident damage.

Indeed, maybe the lack of retirements is not a cause but another symptom of the same underlying factors.



#210 BobbyRicky

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 14:19

The 1960-season was worse.



#211 Cesc

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 19:12

The tire issue was a disaster for the season, quite an awful thing to happen and somehow gave the impression of a fake season.



#212 Eff One 2002

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 21:09

It doesn't matter which team/driver wins the WDC. When it is done as dominantly as it has been done this season, with the drivers unable to race hard due to fragile tyres and being unable to push as hard as they can, with no sense of speed as has been said on a calendar that is, for the most part full of unchallenging carpark-style circuits with drivers wrapped up in cotton wool with officials not letting them race in the rain anymore due to a detrimental over-obsession with safety, it's simply not entertaining. F1 is in serious trouble as I have been saying for some time now and this season has been a case in point.  

 

Drivers aren't on the limit anymore, cruising around at 70% nursing those pathetic Pirelli tyres. Yes, I know this was the type of tyre Pirelli was asked to design, but that was a terrible mistake that has been very detrimental to the sport. This means hardly any mistakes from drivers. This means for the most part you have cars cruising around, looking like they're on rails. As has been said, this makes it contrived and un-interesting. I've followed F1 since the 1985 season so as a long-time fan it makes me sad to see this sport I love become what it has. 

 

I wouldn't say it's the worst season ever, but it certainly hasn't been a good one.


Edited by Eff One 2002, 27 November 2013 - 19:40.


#213 travbrad

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 21:18

Mercedes wasn't so behind after Hungary... Heck, it looked like Mercedes was the fastest package that weekend and was scary as Hungary is not easy on tyres which was Mercedes's biggest weakness. What hurt them is stopping development on this year's car at that point. RBR kept developing their car till a certain point when there was no competition, and presto... Vettel, steamrolled all in front of him.

 

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear.  I meant Mercedes was too far behind in the championship by that point (especially in the drivers championship), not necessarily behind in pace.  Alonso and Raikkonen were Vettel's closest rivals and those two teams were hurt by changing in tyres.  RBR definitely had better development on their car in the 2nd half of the season though.  The tyre change just sealed the deal.  If I remember correctly even Paul Hembery said going back to the old tyres would hand RBR the championship.

 

As for Hungary, I actually think RBR was just as fast in Hungary as Mercedes, if not faster.  They just got stuck behind slower cars twice, whereas Hamilton passed them quickly.  That was really what ultimately won the race for Hamilton.


Edited by travbrad, 30 November 2013 - 06:58.


#214 dau

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 22:32

I think it was the worst thing that ever happened in the history of ever. 



#215 paulrobs

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 22:41

Not sure if it's been the worst season for me but it is the year that I've fallen out of love with F1. Been a big part of my life for a long long time and it's the first year where I eventually stopped watching the races live and found myself watching recorded highlights and fast forwading through the boring drive-to-a-laptime-to-look-after-the-tyres phases with constant coaching from the race engineers. Too many gimmicks now and not the pinnacle of motorsport. Nothing more than a motorsport-based entertainment show and certainly not a race. The last few race weekends have been bliss in fact and I didn't miss it. Been a fan for 30 years ish, spent a lot of money visiting GPs and doing other motorsport things to get my live fix, and always always always F1 cars made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Then this year I went to the Goodwood Festival of Speed and began to feel disappointed at how slow the modren F1 cars got off the line and accelerated and they just looked slow and sounded tinny rather than powerful - a bit like the old two stoke 50cc bikes we all used to ride 35 years ago. TBH I thought I'd begun to see this over the last couple of years but wasn't sure. Maybe I was already losing my enthusiasm, who knows, but they certainly didn't stick their hands down my trousers and give me a damn good squeeze.

 

Then we have ridiculously easy DRS passes, RBR/Vettel domination, Pirelli Cheddar Zeros, a (still) over-reliance on aero to the almost exclusion of everything else, and circuits where the cars look so small and insignificant amongst the 100m run-off areas with hardly any driver sticking to the track limits. Then Grosjean gets a penalty for one of the ballsiest moves I've ever seen around the outside of someone in a very high speed corner just because he went slightly off the track. If he hadn't hung it out he'd have visited the scene of the accident very very quickly so what'she supposed to do, stay behind and wait for the pitstops maybe? Or wait for a DRS pass? Or wait for the tyres to degrade? I guess any of these but certainly not give me something to jump out of my chair for. We've now got stewards watching every move of every driver and drivers constantly asking their teams if they can race the car in front/behind and engineers telling the drvers how to race at every point of the GP and then the race strategies based on a strict programme of Friday and Saturday running to measure tyre degredation so that vastly expensive computers and software can predict the fastest race strategy that drivers then have to go out and execute.

 

I just want to see the fastest drivers in the world driving the fastest cars in the world as fast as they possibly can for the whole length of a GP. I abhor the green issues creeping in too. I mean how can a race series that flies thousands of tonnes of equipment and people all over the world 20 odd times a year, ever be green? It's not green so ditch the pretence and give me back a real series that attempts to fnd the fastest car/driver package rather than the optimal car/driver package that is easy on the tyres, is easy on fuel and gets closest to the pre-race computed strategy.

 

I'm disappointed, I really am. I thought I'd be a fan for my whole life. I may get the bug again over the winter as anticipation mounts ahead of the 2014 season but I'm afraid the contrived nature of current F1 has forced me away.

 

Finally, we just don't see the differences between the fastest drivers and the slower drivers we used to because the tyres have turned it nto a race to a laptime series. Next year could also be very dodgy because Pirelli will again be trying to deliver degredation resulting in 2-3 pitstops per race and yet they won't be able to test the tyres with a 2014 engine/powerplant until it's too late so next year's cars may well rip the tyres to shreds given their vastly higher torque figures and Pirelli's inability to err on the side of caution. I mean, they got it completely wrong this year with V8 engines that couldn't pull the skin of a rice pudding so how will they fare next year.

 

Here's hoping that F1 gets back to where it belongs but I fear that this won't happen until CVC get out and F1 has a rethink to get back to being the premier motorsport series.



#216 black magic

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 23:18

the fact that we are even debating this should be of concern.

 

little optimism is being expressed for 2014.

 

and we are the diehards. if we are struggling then the sport is struggling.

 

while the money people continue to bleed the sport dry for their own(private equity ) ends this sport will continue to whither

 

we understand the desire for the manufacturers to add turbos - but 1.5 litre engines?. my outboard motor is the same size. tyres designed to be SLOW rather than FAST. I leaves me cold.

 

the star of the show (in fact the cars) have been emasculated along withy the sport and until private equity is gone nothing will be done to address the major issues that exist.

 

most boring season ever ... maybe there were worse but it has been another very dull season along with some pretty other recent dull seasons, with more and more dull tracks being added not subtracted, dull tyres.

 

who would bother paying 500 - 1000 dollars to actually travel to watch one of these races live.

 

at least in schumachers days the cars were designed to go as fast as they could and were driven the same. to an era when a 40 yr old driver complains that he is only driving at 60 -70%??



#217 LoudHoward

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 00:12

2013 stinks because of the tire scandal. Red Bull build a crap car that couldn't look after its tires, but instead of fixing their car they just bitched and moaned until the tyres were changed to suit their car.

 

Is this even reality though?

 

I'll admit I wasn't deeply following the tyre politics earlier in the year, but I thought it went more like:

 

- RBR and maybe one or two more teams want the tyres changed.

- Pirelli resists.

- Bickering in the media to apply pressure between multiple parties, as per every issue ever.

- Pirelli agrees to changes.

- FIA says no since the teams aren't unanimous, end of issue? RBR still leading both championships.

- Later and seperately, tyres explode randomly at Silverstone, Pirelli makes the changes needed, all teams are onboard with this.

 

Happy to be corrected if this wasn't what happened, but hardly seems like RBR did anything a) wrong, or b) to actually end up having the tyres changed.


Edited by LoudHoward, 27 November 2013 - 00:15.


#218 scheivlak

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 00:18

 

 

we understand the desire for the manufacturers to add turbos - but 1.5 litre engines?. my outboard motor is the same size. 

Possibly the most stupid thing ever written down here?

 

It's 1.6 litre, and that's slightly more than the engine size in the -rightly- hallowed 1.5 litre turbo era.


Edited by scheivlak, 27 November 2013 - 00:21.


#219 Eff One 2002

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 02:36

Not sure if it's been the worst season for me but it is the year that I've fallen out of love with F1. Been a big part of my life for a long long time and it's the first year where I eventually stopped watching the races live and found myself watching recorded highlights and fast forwading through the boring drive-to-a-laptime-to-look-after-the-tyres phases with constant coaching from the race engineers. Too many gimmicks now and not the pinnacle of motorsport. Nothing more than a motorsport-based entertainment show and certainly not a race. The last few race weekends have been bliss in fact and I didn't miss it. Been a fan for 30 years ish, spent a lot of money visiting GPs and doing other motorsport things to get my live fix, and always always always F1 cars made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Then this year I went to the Goodwood Festival of Speed and began to feel disappointed at how slow the modren F1 cars got off the line and accelerated and they just looked slow and sounded tinny rather than powerful - a bit like the old two stoke 50cc bikes we all used to ride 35 years ago. TBH I thought I'd begun to see this over the last couple of years but wasn't sure. Maybe I was already losing my enthusiasm, who knows, but they certainly didn't stick their hands down my trousers and give me a damn good squeeze.

 

Then we have ridiculously easy DRS passes, RBR/Vettel domination, Pirelli Cheddar Zeros, a (still) over-reliance on aero to the almost exclusion of everything else, and circuits where the cars look so small and insignificant amongst the 100m run-off areas with hardly any driver sticking to the track limits. Then Grosjean gets a penalty for one of the ballsiest moves I've ever seen around the outside of someone in a very high speed corner just because he went slightly off the track. If he hadn't hung it out he'd have visited the scene of the accident very very quickly so what'she supposed to do, stay behind and wait for the pitstops maybe? Or wait for a DRS pass? Or wait for the tyres to degrade? I guess any of these but certainly not give me something to jump out of my chair for. We've now got stewards watching every move of every driver and drivers constantly asking their teams if they can race the car in front/behind and engineers telling the drvers how to race at every point of the GP and then the race strategies based on a strict programme of Friday and Saturday running to measure tyre degredation so that vastly expensive computers and software can predict the fastest race strategy that drivers then have to go out and execute.

 

I just want to see the fastest drivers in the world driving the fastest cars in the world as fast as they possibly can for the whole length of a GP. I abhor the green issues creeping in too. I mean how can a race series that flies thousands of tonnes of equipment and people all over the world 20 odd times a year, ever be green? It's not green so ditch the pretence and give me back a real series that attempts to fnd the fastest car/driver package rather than the optimal car/driver package that is easy on the tyres, is easy on fuel and gets closest to the pre-race computed strategy.

 

I'm disappointed, I really am. I thought I'd be a fan for my whole life. I may get the bug again over the winter as anticipation mounts ahead of the 2014 season but I'm afraid the contrived nature of current F1 has forced me away.

 

Finally, we just don't see the differences between the fastest drivers and the slower drivers we used to because the tyres have turned it nto a race to a laptime series. Next year could also be very dodgy because Pirelli will again be trying to deliver degredation resulting in 2-3 pitstops per race and yet they won't be able to test the tyres with a 2014 engine/powerplant until it's too late so next year's cars may well rip the tyres to shreds given their vastly higher torque figures and Pirelli's inability to err on the side of caution. I mean, they got it completely wrong this year with V8 engines that couldn't pull the skin of a rice pudding so how will they fare next year.

 

Here's hoping that F1 gets back to where it belongs but I fear that this won't happen until CVC get out and F1 has a rethink to get back to being the premier motorsport series.

Well said. I couldn't agree more.



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#220 Eff One 2002

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 02:41

Possibly the most stupid thing ever written down here?

 

It's 1.6 litre, and that's slightly more than the engine size in the -rightly- hallowed 1.5 litre turbo era.

You're being pedantic. It was probably a typo and besides they are right. 1.6 litre is a RIDICULOUSLY small capacity.



#221 black magic

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 04:00

car to name a sports car with a 1.6 litre engine smarty pants. and I'll give you my factual error and short changing you by 100cc.



#222 Henri Greuter

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:17

 

You're being pedantic. It was probably a typo and besides they are right. 1.6 litre is a RIDICULOUSLY small capacity.


Why too small? The thing has turbo's to provide power when it it really needed and KERS also providing power when needed (at least for some time) And isn't it all about the power of the cars?
if you talk about rediculous engine sizes: have a look at NASCAR and even worse: GT reacing where engines of about 6 liter and more (8 liter Vipers.....) are strangled with restrictors to avoid they produce too much power..... They race with engines that, in racing trim produce less power per cc capacity then some of the hottest sportscars you can buy (as long as you have the money) That is what I call rediculous.

Smaller engines at least enable the kind of RPM levels that many out here insist that a F1 car must have to produse the kind of noise they think F1 cars need to have.


Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 27 November 2013 - 07:20.


#223 speedman13

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:44

I have been attending Grand Prix since 1957 and this is without a doubt the worst season I have ever seen.



#224 tifosiMac

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:56

The tire issue was a disaster for the season, quite an awful thing to happen and somehow gave the impression of a fake season.

Indeed. It was clear teams like Lotus and Mercedes had enough one lap pace to match Red Bull, but the tyres dictated far too much I feel. Red Bull mastered exhaust blowing better than any other team and were less demanding of their tyres and this has played into their strengths beautifully. Nobody wants to see the best drivers in the world going slower than they need to just to make their tyres last 15 laps. Had the tyres been more durable, I think we would have had a genuine challenge for the title this year and not the walk in the park we witnessed.



#225 SenorSjon

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:16

 

Why too small? The thing has turbo's to provide power when it it really needed and KERS also providing power when needed (at least for some time) And isn't it all about the power of the cars?
if you talk about rediculous engine sizes: have a look at NASCAR and even worse: GT reacing where engines of about 6 liter and more (8 liter Vipers.....) are strangled with restrictors to avoid they produce too much power..... They race with engines that, in racing trim produce less power per cc capacity then some of the hottest sportscars you can buy (as long as you have the money) That is what I call rediculous.

Smaller engines at least enable the kind of RPM levels that many out here insist that a F1 car must have to produse the kind of noise they think F1 cars need to have.


Henri

Good point. Current day supercars you can buy are more powerfull than F1 cars and the choice in more powerfull supercars is growing rapidly. That was unheard of in the past. For a few years now, F1's remaining strength has been braking power that is still sublime to any other class. Nice for Brembo et al, but not very exciting.



#226 Velocifer

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:21

Possibly the most stupid thing ever written down here?

 

It's 1.6 litre, and that's slightly more than the engine size in the -rightly- hallowed 1.5 litre turbo era.

There's so much in this thread to take from, but just grabbing a few on this page alone is enough:

 

I've just done some analysis of the rate of retirements in 2013 and found that it had the lowest retirement rate in history. I know that Vettel's domination was probably the biggest factor in making this season boring but could this have contributed as well?

Yeah right, cars not breaking down and having them running is horrible!

 

On a personal level, yes it was the worst season since I was able to start following F1, back in '89. As to whether on not it was the worst season ever for anyone else, there's no definitive answer because it all comes down to individual perceptions and personal enjoyment.

 

Part of the reason it was the worst for me, was purely down to losing access to SkyGo and not having any other way of watching - our slowbad was bad enough with Sky (peering at a tiny little box on the screen that froze every few minutes), so any other source wasn't an option.

Avoiding looking up the results before the replay wasn't too bad in the first half of the season, but after the tyre change I got into the habit of checking to make sure Vettel won, and then not bothering to watch most of the Sky only races.  So my season consisted of a few very unpredictable races in the first half of the season, with constant moaning about tyres, and then the occasional race in the second half, the results of which were entirely predictable.

 

I also found the huge gaps in the calendar, combined with only getting BBC races live, meant the season never really got going for me - it turned me into a casual viewer.

Having stuck with it through the Schumacher/Ferrari era, I know Red Bull's dominance isn't the issue, so the only thing I can put my finger on for the loss of passion (not interest), is not having the races live.

 

 

Maybe if I was a 'true' F1 fan I'd pay £500 or what ever to get Sky, but then if I was really a 'true' F1 fan I'd sell my house and spend my whole life following F1 round the world.  Fact is, it's unlikely I'd ever get planning permission for a satellite dish, and although we do have an illegal(possibly) one for freesat, I don't want to tempt fate by signing up for an annual contract - plus I resent having to pay for a whole load of stuff I don't want, just to get access to F1.

We've just recently been able to get half decent broadband through a rural scheme, so if 2014 turns out to be a cracker I might reassess the options.  Finding the most cost effective means of watching MotoGP is my main priority at the moment though.

It's the worst season in F1 history because something happened to your TV setup? :mad:

 

It really beggers belief the things that's come out in this thread. To me it's obvious from the poll results, the 'reasoning' and also from other threads that it's simply the worst season fan wise. For some reason F1 is now followed by a lot of booers, whiners and moaners who will constantly slam the sport and people involved to the ground if it doesn't give them instant fix and their hero driver doesn't come out on top. At this point I'm praying for another season like this one so we can lose this generation of 'fans'..



#227 tifosiMac

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:30

It really beggers belief the things that's come out in this thread. To me it's obvious from the poll results, the 'reasoning' and also from other threads that it's simply the worst season fan wise. For some reason F1 is now followed by a lot of booers, whiners and moaners who will constantly slam the sport and people involved to the ground if it doesn't give them instant fix and their hero driver doesn't come out on top. At this point I'm praying for another season like this one so we can lose this generation of 'fans'..

I think from reading the opinions on this thread and the general collective of threads, there is more depth to it than what you are saying here. It was mostly boring for me because I will admit I don't want to see the same driver winning nearly every week and so easily. However I have thoroughly enjoyed seasons where my favourite driver has not won, so your analysis doesn't work in relation to me. As I said, I think enjoyment is subjective and there is more depth to a collective of opinions.

 

I hate to tell you though but a boring season is not the only thing getting rid of a generation of fans. Viewership worldwide is on the decline anyway and its started before this season even began :)



#228 SenorSjon

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:49

There's so much in this thread to take from, but just grabbing a few on this page alone is enough:

 

Yeah right, cars not breaking down and having them running is horrible!

 

It's the worst season in F1 history because something happened to your TV setup? :mad:

 

It really beggers belief the things that's come out in this thread. To me it's obvious from the poll results, the 'reasoning' and also from other threads that it's simply the worst season fan wise. For some reason F1 is now followed by a lot of booers, whiners and moaners who will constantly slam the sport and people involved to the ground if it doesn't give them instant fix and their hero driver doesn't come out on top. At this point I'm praying for another season like this one so we can lose this generation of 'fans'..

Perhaps you should read the thread. Most reasons are not related to RB winning everything. People even like 02 en 04 more, because back then, at least you have got nice cars, V10 and drivers at 100%. Watch the drivers come out of the car very tired in some of those podium ceremonies. Fast Forward to 2013 and you see drivers getting out of the car way to fit for the job. Let me put it this way. In the past you looked with awe at the performance of the drivers and the fitness needed for it. Now you see people getting out of the car with less sweat than driving Route66 without A/C. It looks like you could have easily done it yourself instead of a superatlete.



#229 sock22

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:04

There's so much in this thread to take from, but just grabbing a few on this page alone is enough:

 

Yeah right, cars not breaking down and having them running is horrible!

 

It's the worst season in F1 history because something happened to your TV setup? :mad:

 

It really beggers belief the things that's come out in this thread. To me it's obvious from the poll results, the 'reasoning' and also from other threads that it's simply the worst season fan wise. For some reason F1 is now followed by a lot of booers, whiners and moaners who will constantly slam the sport and people involved to the ground if it doesn't give them instant fix and their hero driver doesn't come out on top. At this point I'm praying for another season like this one so we can lose this generation of 'fans'..

My reasoning was that having practically no chance of retirements served to increase the predictability.



#230 Velocifer

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:29

Perhaps you should read the thread. Most reasons are not related to RB winning everything. People even like 02 en 04 more, because back then, at least you have got nice cars, V10 and drivers at 100%. Watch the drivers come out of the car very tired in some of those podium ceremonies. Fast Forward to 2013 and you see drivers getting out of the car way to fit for the job. Let me put it this way. In the past you looked with awe at the performance of the drivers and the fitness needed for it. Now you see people getting out of the car with less sweat than driving Route66 without A/C. It looks like you could have easily done it yourself instead of a superatlete.

Since it's not about which seasons people liked more but about this being the worst season in history you have missed the point completely (and also about me not having read the thread so that's 2 for 2).

 

My reasoning was that having practically no chance of retirements served to increase the predictability.

Ah yes, the sad predictability that cars running will have vastly increased chances of racing other cars ... in a motor race..



#231 sock22

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:41

Since it's not about which seasons people liked more but about this being the worst season in history you have missed the point completely (and also about me not having read the thread so that's 2 for 2).

 

Ah yes, the sad predictability that cars running will have vastly increased chances of racing other cars ... in a motor race..

No need for the sarcastic tone; in doing so you have obviously twisted what I said. Of course I meant predictability of the results not of cars running. I have clearly said in all of my posts in this topic that the lack of retirements could have been one of many contributing factors to the boring season. The point is that we have seen very little action at the sharp end and the races have been very predictable. A higher chance of retirement would at least have injected some level of uncertainty. It's not the ideal way to create excitement but I am saying that we didn't even have this as a backup.



#232 tifosiMac

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:53

No need for the sarcastic tone; in doing so you have obviously twisted what I said. Of course I meant predictability of the results not of cars running. I have clearly said in all of my posts in this topic that the lack of retirements could have been one of many contributing factors to the boring season. The point is that we have seen very little action at the sharp end and the races have been very predictable. A higher chance of retirement would at least have injected some level of uncertainty. It's not the ideal way to create excitement but I am saying that we didn't even have this as a backup.

That is a great point. Retirements are frustrating especially when its a driver you like, but they often opened things up and injected uncertainty into the season. I think with the new engines we'll see unreliability return to some degree as the engines bed in and the weaknesses are realised. Hamilton might disagree with the level of increased reliability because he suffered badly in 2012 due to failures. we might have had a tighter fight had his car been more reliable so it works both ways :)



#233 Jimisgod

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:54

Oh, you did see better racing in 1992? Go check your eyes then. Interesting how fast people tend to forget the first half of this season. Where was the RB dominance then???


I remember that. And I remember the great whine from RBR - "cheese tyres" that eventually saw the tyres changed and RBR handed the crown.

Never had a season been so completely manipulated and ruined by a biased regulations change in the very middle.

#234 SenorSjon

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:45

Since it's not about which seasons people liked more but about this being the worst season in history you have missed the point completely (and also about me not having read the thread so that's 2 for 2).

 

Ah yes, the sad predictability that cars running will have vastly increased chances of racing other cars ... in a motor race..

Calm down. Your clearly state fans are whining because of their hero not winning and not getting their instant fix, see the bolded part below. What instant fix anyway? A DRS overtake? Most people posting are giving an explanation and very few cry about the Vettel dominance this season. So my conclusion was you didn't read the topic properly. For your second point. Racing other cars... for that you need racing tires, not scorched marshmellows.

 

...

 

It really beggers belief the things that's come out in this thread. To me it's obvious from the poll results, the 'reasoning' and also from other threads that it's simply the worst season fan wise. For some reason F1 is now followed by a lot of booers, whiners and moaners who will constantly slam the sport and people involved to the ground if it doesn't give them instant fix and their hero driver doesn't come out on top. At this point I'm praying for another season like this one so we can lose this generation of 'fans'..

 

 



#235 sopa

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:58

It isn't about Vettel and his dominance. It is about Webber closing on Alonso for 2nd in Brazil and you have no feeling whatsoever. You just think. He is on the main straight, pushes a button and his MarioKart mushroom allows him to speed past Alonso without fuss. No bouncing BBC-pundit can make me like that move. It had absolutely no tension. Compare it to the overtakes Schumacher did on the same track in 2006. No DRS, no Pirelli misery, but genuine overtaking.

 

I think you have a point. We see lots of battles on the track it has to be said. But very few of those I actually care about. In the past although overtaking was difficult and rare and there were complaints that we have trains and lack of action, any kind of battle excited much more.

 

When Webber was closing on Alonso, you knew for sure he was going to finish the race second. Alonso had no chance. In battles there is tension only if the outcome is unclear - who might come out on top. There was certainly tension at the end of 2005 Imola. Alonso held the lead, but Schumacher was much faster and could have passed.


Edited by sopa, 27 November 2013 - 13:03.


#236 johnmhinds

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 13:08

DRS removing all defensive driving from the sport is the main reason it feels so boring to me these days.

 

In the past a slower driver had at least some chance to keep a faster driver behind them by braking later into a corner and driving defensively, but these days everyone just waits to press a button to slip past half way down the main straight.

 

None of the passes happen anywhere near the braking zones, and no DRS pass ever posed any risk to either driver.

 

DRS has given us more passing, but not better passing.


Edited by johnmhinds, 27 November 2013 - 13:10.


#237 Velocifer

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 13:46

No need for the sarcastic tone; in doing so you have obviously twisted what I said. Of course I meant predictability of the results not of cars running. I have clearly said in all of my posts in this topic that the lack of retirements could have been one of many contributing factors to the boring season. The point is that we have seen very little action at the sharp end and the races have been very predictable. A higher chance of retirement would at least have injected some level of uncertainty. It's not the ideal way to create excitement but I am saying that we didn't even have this as a backup.

I didn't twist anything. You made the argument the season was worse for the lack of cars breaking down, which you confirm now by saying it hurt the excitement of it.

 

My argument is very clear: Fewer cars running, fewer cars are racing, but then racing cars seems to be secondary to the newer fan who wants the desired result of their driver even if it means at the hand of non-sporting events rather than fair racing as proven in the very next post: Cars breaking down is good if it's someone else, but bad it's their favorite driver.

 

Anyone arguing in a big F1 forum that it hurt the season because not more random and unlucky things didn't befall people are not real fans of F1 in my opinion and the argument doesn't even make sense on its own.



#238 Velocifer

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 14:12

Calm down.

You calm down. No need to get worked up just because your arguments were shot down.

 

Your clearly state fans are whining because of their hero not winning and not getting their instant fix, see the bolded part below. What instant fix anyway? A DRS overtake? Most people posting are giving an explanation and very few cry about the Vettel dominance this season. So my conclusion was you didn't read the topic properly. For your second point. Racing other cars... for that you need racing tires, not scorched marshmellows.

No they are not. Most people are just whining about it with little argument as they do in other threads too. Maybe you didn't read the thread?

Scorched marshmellows, bless.. No exaggerated bashing here then! So I take it your argument now is that you and other people's slaughtering of this season is that there was no racing this season compared to the other 62? And that it had nothing at all to do with yet another German running away with it and people not getting much joy waving their little flags every other weekend, right?

 

I can without struggling think of several really first class, top drawer racing moves this season which had nothing to do with 'scorched marshmellows' or DRS at all. Just last race we were treated to a complete stunner outside move by Mark Webber plus lots of other nice moves as well throughout the race, and in the very same race we saw cars stuck behind another for laps and laps and it was obviously not just to press an overtake button to get past as some are trying to make out here. And similar has been throughout the season. Lots of brilliant moves, lots of racing, lots of people struggling to get past despite DRS. And it happens all down the field because cars are much closer in lap times than the old days, and most cars are still running without breaking down and therefore able to race, something not so common before.

 

People are exaggerating, bashing and even outright lying in this thread to put this season down and it doesn't take much to guess as to the reasons why. It's anyway the same pattern for most threads here and it even spilled out on to the track where people have had the gall to actually to boo one of the finest racing drivers that ever was in F1 for the same petty non-existent reasons.



#239 SenorSjon

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 14:31

Yes you do, he talks about retirements, not necessarily breakdowns. When drivers no longer push, less strain is put on the materials and less chance of failing to finish due to a personal error. A retirement could also happen when two fighting cars end up in the gravel trap... errr tarmac runoff... anyhow.

 

Stunner move by Webber? When he drove around without helmet? Or do you mean passing Alonso with the DRS on in the first corner? Good for you if you find that a racing move, most opinions here differ from that. We've seen multple occassions this season that drivers were letting others by. Almost waving them past to prevent going off the line on the marbles and thus destroying the tires. Any fight for position costs you 2-3 laps of performance on a 15 lap stint. Most overtakes are with different strategies or DRS. And of course tarmac runoffs, haphazardous stewarding. More than once drivers are coached through every corner and are asked by their engineer to keep at least 2 seconds distance or the fragile tires get overheated.

 

 

I see no argumentation from you that invalidates the distractors. You only complain about fans not liking this kind of 'racing', many of those fans watch F1 for 20-30 years mind you and are now losing interest. We are racing to a delta time the tires maybe can handle. Not the time the driver or the car can handle. The small disparity between lap times isn't especially due to the competition, but the tires can't go faster. Everyone is nearing the same limit (mind you, engine performance is also near the same with the engine freeze). Watch the Q2 times from Valencia last year (http://en.wikipedia....pean_Grand_Prix) as a prime example. You can't tell me 10+ drivers are within a tenth of a second on a 98 second lap. That is 1% difference.

 

This year we heard multple drivers complain that the tires couldn't even last a Q lap. Hamilton couldn't go any slower. After a few races all drivers received a slap on the wrist, because suddenly the complains stopped.

 

 

I started to dislike F1 when the T-car was banned and parc ferme put into place. Everything since then only made it worse. Were those things annoying rules, slowly they get stacked and make many fans turn away from the sport.



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#240 Velocifer

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 14:53

Stunner move by Webber? When he drove around without helmet? Or do you mean passing Alonso with the DRS on in the first corner? Good for you if you find that a racing move, most opinions here differ from that.

No, none of those, maybe you didn't watch the race?

I see no argumentation from you that invalidates the distractors. You only complain about fans not liking this kind of 'racing'

So when I say I've seen lots of brilliant moves and lots of hard racing, and proof that DRS still means you can't overtake someone, and that cars are closer and more reliable than ever before, that is no argumentation against those who say this is the worst season in F1's 63 year history? Eh? I'm just the one complaining?  :D Ok I think I'm done here now..

Hamilton

I rest my case..



#241 Lazy

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 15:11

:rolleyes:

 

The tyres were changed for safety reasons after numerous high profile delaminations. RB (and others) may have been whining about wear but they would not have been changed were they not extremely dangerous and unfit for purpose.

 

Nonsense, that was purely down to the teams playing silly buggers with pressures and camber, as Risil said.

Not if you set your car up according to what the tyre manufacturer deemed to be within safe limits.

 

Actually was looking like a really good season until the unbelievable amount of whining from the fans forced Pirelli to change the tyres then RB dominated just as Pirelli predicted.

 

100% fan fail.



#242 HoldenRT

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 15:30

I didn't enjoy 2007 or 2008 too much.  You had Ferrari and McLaren taking turns for wins, with BMW sniffing around racing all by themselves and a big gap behind to the rest.  At least this season there was Ferrari, Lotus, and Mercedes having close fights.  And in those seasons there were very little overtakings and lots of trains.  But at least those had close championship fights until the end.  And at least the drivers would be pushing and not conserving all the time.  There were many good races this season, it was just the championship that was dull.



#243 buzard

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 15:41

I thought this was a good season. The first half was wide open. And if you remove Vettel from the picture we had some of the closest fights for 2- 6 for both driver and constructor in history. There was also a lot of important racing in the 5-10 places in almost all of the races. If you only look at first place, yes boring, look at the rest of the field, it was quite good. :cool:

 

And of course it is still continuing even after the last race. Interesing stuff off the track as well!!!



#244 SenorSjon

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 15:41

Come on. Have you missed Monaco? Spain? Only the shopping trolleys were missing, they were going at a snails pace. I watch every race in the hope this time it will be better. ;)

 

No, none of those, maybe you didn't watch the race?

So when I say I've seen lots of brilliant moves and lots of hard racing, and proof that DRS still means you can't overtake someone, and that cars are closer and more reliable than ever before, that is no argumentation against those who say this is the worst season in F1's 63 year history? Eh? I'm just the one complaining?  :D Ok I think I'm done here now..

I rest my case..

I must admit some parts are misty eyed. I just say, it is your opinion that you consider this racing. I don't think it is. It is to me very contrived and the only reason they are close is that everything is so limited. Tires limited, engine limited, development limited. When I see an overtake now I just think: 1) it is DRS, push of a button. or 2) that move just cost him 3 laps of tire life. I then think of the days teams used to test to gain performance instead of skipping half the season for a rule change. All my griefs are accumulated in 2013. So yes, I think F1 is in a bad state. I expect things to crumble very fast when the Emperor Bernie is convicted and no-one wants to be associated with F1. You already see Sauber and Lotus struggling for survival. Where some other teams get their money from is beyond me.

 

And for the record I'm not a Hamilton fan (quite the opposite). You can rest your case what you want.



#245 sock22

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 16:23

I didn't twist anything. You made the argument the season was worse for the lack of cars breaking down, which you confirm now by saying it hurt the excitement of it.

 

My argument is very clear: Fewer cars running, fewer cars are racing, but then racing cars seems to be secondary to the newer fan who wants the desired result of their driver even if it means at the hand of non-sporting events rather than fair racing as proven in the very next post: Cars breaking down is good if it's someone else, but bad it's their favorite driver.

 

Anyone arguing in a big F1 forum that it hurt the season because not more random and unlucky things didn't befall people are not real fans of F1 in my opinion and the argument doesn't even make sense on its own.

If your entire enjoyment of F1 is derived from the on-track battles, that's fine, but to suggest that anyone who cares a jot about the result is not a 'real' fan is just arrogant and naive. For me it's about 50/50. Of course the wheel-to-wheel action needs to be good, but the results matter too because they give context to the battles you are watching. A battle for the win is more exciting than a battle for 15th because it means more. If one driver dominates a series of races, it gets boring regardless of who it is. That's not partisanship, it's just wanting to see closer competition. If said driver retires from a race it can make the race more exciting despite there being one fewer car in the race.

 

Let me illustrate my point with an example. The last few laps of this year's British GP were exciting because we had Webber and Rosberg battling for the win right to the last lap (among other things). This was facilitated by mechanical issues for Hamilton and then Vettel.  In my opinion, if this battle had been for second or third place it would not have been as exciting. Fast forward to the US GP. Grosjean and Webber were in a battle for second place for a significant portion of the race. If Vettel had retired, this would have been a battle for the win and it would have gone down as a classic (similar to the 2012 race). As it happened, he didn't and the race was quite forgettable.

 

I'm not wishing retirements on any driver because, as you point out, it is unfair. But I do stand by the point that retirements can make races (and seasons) more exciting in some circumstances and the fact we had the lowest rate of retirements in history means that this didn't happen. I mooted the point that this could be a contributory factor to 40% of people voting 2013 the worst season ever in the poll. For what it's worth I don't think it was the worst season ever.



#246 KingTiger

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 19:07

Absolutely the worst, without a doubt. At least we had proper racing and tracks in 2002/2004. No real racing anymore, garbage tracks, garbage tires, garbage cars. 



#247 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 19:14

As F1 falls, the WEC rises. Go Webber!

#248 andyF1

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 19:36

Sadly no matter who your favourite driver or sportsperson is, domination is not healthy for any sport. Take a look a Scottish football. Widely lampooned because nobody other than Celtic or Rangers has won the title since the 80's. Fans have also got bored with tennis and golf and one player's domination and subsequently derided the sport for its predictablilty.

 

What happened to Formula 1 in 1992, 2002, 2004 and 2013 was not healthy for the sport. I know many casual Formula 1 fans and I've seen and heard their comments about this season. None of them have been positive, many have been along the lines of 'Oh Vettel wins again, I'd never have predicted that!' I seem to remember similar comments being made in the era of Schumacher domination.

 

The domination of one driver  however is just one of the factors that has made Formula 1 seem a little tedious and at times infuriating. A lack of wet races, no real classic race this season and uninspiring modern circuits with half empty grandstands and over zealous stewards have all contributed to belief that this was a very poor season


Edited by andyF1, 27 November 2013 - 19:37.


#249 Muppetmad

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 20:25

It really beggers belief the things that's come out in this thread. To me it's obvious from the poll results, the 'reasoning' and also from other threads that it's simply the worst season fan wise. For some reason F1 is now followed by a lot of booers, whiners and moaners who will constantly slam the sport and people involved to the ground if it doesn't give them instant fix and their hero driver doesn't come out on top. At this point I'm praying for another season like this one so we can lose this generation of 'fans'..

So I take it your argument now is that you and other people's slaughtering of this season is that there was no racing this season compared to the other 62? And that it had nothing at all to do with yet another German running away with it and people not getting much joy waving their little flags every other weekend, right? [...] It's anyway the same pattern for most threads here and it even spilled out on to the track where people have had the gall to actually to boo one of the finest racing drivers that ever was in F1 for the same petty non-existent reasons.

 

Reductionism at its finest. Tell me: Vettel won the title in 2010 and this year; I loved 2010 and hated 2013. How does that fit into your simplistic model?

 

No matter how much you might like it to be, not everything is about Vettel. If you can't see that the sport has changed dramatically since even three years ago - a change that I see has been for the worse - then I don't know what to say.


Edited by Muppetmad, 27 November 2013 - 20:28.


#250 FBJim

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 20:53

Also, saying that the lack of retirements means "more racing" because there are more cars on the track is simplistic. Racing is a sport of variables, and reliability is one of those variables. When you remove that from the equation, you make things less interesting. I don't advocate returning to the heights of the early turbo era where 10-or-so finishers was common, but the current state is bad, because it doesn't make finishing a Grand Prix feel like any sort of achievement anymore. I mean, you go back a few decades, and basically any given team that actually got a car to the line was in with a decent shot of points. These days, we bring the final points spot down to tenth, and Marussia and Caterham still don't have a prayer, because those cars ahead of them aren't going anywhere.