51 replies to this topic

[DutchQuicksilver]

Have to say, after watching this dismal 2013 season, that the races at the more classic tracks like Interlagos or Canada attracted me a lot more then let's say the Tilke dromes like Abu Dhabi or Bahrain. Noticed it today, was more excited about watching today's race, even though it would be dull like every other one this season. But because of the track they were racing at, I kind of got a little excited. Whilst back at Abu Dhabi or India, I couldn't really be bothered.

Edited by DutchQuicksilver, 24 November 2013 - 18:30.

[ATM]

Well, Monaco is as classic as it gets, and I haven't seen a good race there since...when? 1996?

[DutchQuicksilver]

Still, the buzz around it attracts me more. I'd rather see the 2013 Monaco GP again, then let's say the 2013 India GP or Abu Dhabi GP.

[andyF1]

Monaco might often make for dull racing, but at least we know that the drivers are being seriously challenged and if they make a mistake they will probably be punished for it. Unlike at the bland Tilke dromes

[SonnyViceR]

One of the biggest reasons I preferred ILMC over WEC was that they had races on classic sportscar venues/events and not at some craptacular Tilkedromes that have nothing to do with anything. Now all of the tracks, with the exception of Le Mans of course, are run on boring F1 circuits. Even if the races might be exciting it's just not the same watching them circulating those modern asphalt parking lots. There is no soul. I'd rather watch a boring ten hour race at Road Atlanta (not that there's ever been dull race there but for the sake of the argument) than super exciting six hour thriller at CotA.

 

Also the once great historical circuits like Spa and Silverstone that are actually still there have been ruined by ridiculous safety "improvements"

Edited by SonnyViceR, 24 November 2013 - 18:51.

[DaddyCool]

I agree - these tracks still have edge and character. I'd rather watch the dullest race in Spa with Eau Rouge, hills, beautiful scenery and stacked grandstands than the most exciting one in a desert parking lot like Abu Dhabi.

 

Also note that due to some mysterious reason overtaking is still very much possible without DRS in these classic tracks. Ironic if you consider that the layout of these tracks were shaped by the space available, and not by a group of supposedly expert team of engineers.

[Kingshark]

Well, Monaco is as classic as it gets, and I haven't seen a good race there since...when? 1996?

 

You think that 2008 and 2011 were bad races?

[Fastcake]

Still, the buzz around it attracts me more. I'd rather see the 2013 Monaco GP again, then let's say the 2013 India GP or Abu Dhabi GP.

 

This year's Monaco GP with two Mercedes cruising around holding everyone else up? There were certainly better races.

[Andrew Hope]

A drunken weekend on a yacht with Alonso's girlfriend couldn't make up for the poor races.

[scheivlak]

Well, Monaco is as classic as it gets, and I haven't seen a good race there since...when? 1996?

2005 was fantastic, and I enjoyed e.g. the 2003, 2004, 2008, 2010 and 2011 races also quite a lot. The scramble behind the top-4 this year wasn't too bad either.

Edited by scheivlak, 24 November 2013 - 19:04.

[SonnyViceR]

I'd rather watch the dullest race in Spa with Eau Rouge, hills, beautiful scenery and stacked grandstands than the most exciting one in a desert parking lot like Abu Dhabi.

 

If we take the atmosphere and surroundings out of the picture, the modern day Spa is starting to remind those parking lots. Yes profile is still the same classic one (if you accept the changes they made in the last decade that is) but when you can bypass the racing line & cut corners & have zero penalty for mistakes everywhere, thanks to miles of tarmac run-off, it quicky becomes just... sterile. Add to that the total sanitation of Eau Rouge, Pouhon and some of the other corners and it becomes obviously clear that the magic is disappearing. Also the famous weather patterns of the Ardenns don't really even matter anymore - in F1 only that is - as cars aren't allowed to run in the wet..

 

My last negativity with Spa has nothing to do with the circuit, but the fact that SRO managed to ruin one of my former favourite races of the year (Spa 24h) and ACO/FIA have worked extremely hard to do the same for the six hour / former 1000km event. I still watch the six hour race but pretty much only because it's the dress rehearsal for Le Mans.

 

It's funky to think that ZOLDER is now my favourite Belgian circuit. NONE of it has been ruined. Too bad that pretty much no-one, with the exception of some locals and the lame-duck 24h event have races up there anymore

Edited by SonnyViceR, 24 November 2013 - 19:14.

[SenorSjon]

I agree - these tracks still have edge and character. I'd rather watch the dullest race in Spa with Eau Rouge, hills, beautiful scenery and stacked grandstands than the most exciting one in a desert parking lot like Abu Dhabi.

 

Also note that due to some mysterious reason overtaking is still very much possible without DRS in these classic tracks. Ironic if you consider that the layout of these tracks were shaped by the space available, and not by a group of supposedly expert team of engineers.

Not anymore. Spa used to have lots of green around it, but just like Brazil, it is getting Tilkied. More and more tarmac runoffs everywhere.

 

Edit:

With the above. Bit by bit, the soul is leaving Spa.

 

 

Current day Brazil couldn't be constructed. No way in hell the FIA would allow a wall on the outside of the S/F straight.

Edited by SenorSjon, 24 November 2013 - 19:09.

[froggy22]

Interlagos made me realise that race tracks looks so much better with a bit of grass.

[DaddyCool]

Yeah, I know Spa has suffered a lot in that regard unfortunately. Still, the surroundings/scenery make up a little bit for it. At very least FIA couldn't destroy the elevation changes

[NexusIcon]

When there's little or nothing at stake I don't think Brazil is up there with the best tracks. I really cannot understand why anyone gets so misty-eyed about Interlagos.

Of course it has had nail-biting races there but so would any track that has seen the WDC decider. 2008 was epic, in that regard, but I don't remember the race itself being a classic display of overtaking, on the edge driving or sublime pit-wall tactics.

Of course, maybe it's just me.

[Zoetrope]

Interlagos made me realise that race tracks looks so much better with a bit of grass.

Yes. Thank God we gonna see Austrian Grand Prix next year instead of New Jersey...

[pingu666]

i quite enjoyed the first couple of laps

interlagos is a fun track for f1

[scheivlak]

When there's little or nothing at stake I don't think Brazil is up there with the best tracks. I really cannot understand why anyone gets so misty-eyed about Interlagos.

Of course it has had nail-biting races there but so would any track that has seen the WDC decider. 2008 was epic, in that regard, but I don't remember the race itself being a classic display of overtaking, on the edge driving or sublime pit-wall tactics.

Of course, maybe it's just me.

Well, I certainly remember the sublime pit-wall tactics from Toyota 

As well as Vettel passing Hamilton in a brilliant opportunistic move just one lap from the end!

[sennafan24]

A drunken weekend on a yacht with Alonso's girlfriend couldn't make up for the poor races.

Yes it could, and I do not even drink.

[muramasa]

classic tracks tend to have very natural and organic undulation and elevation change. Interlagos is awesome in that regard, so are tracks like Spa, Suzuka etc. Actually i havent paid much attention to it and realized until fairly recently.

 

In the meantime, undulation on newer tracks are very contrived...what the hell is that bank at China? Austin's 1st corner? India's T3 and terraced straight after that? etc etc.

 

Older tracks, even flat ones like Monza has nice flow, but newer tracks tend to be just bland (except Turkey, Sepang and Austin's first half).

[Myrvold]

What I really liked about the broadcast, or at least the warm-up lap, was all the different views they gave us, showed the area around. And it showed something else than a no-mans land! It is truly brillliant.
And the track does have some really wide runoff-areas, but it is natural, it is wide, it is tight, it's elevation changes, it's a nice little piece of a circuit.

[ebeneezer2]

I think Hermann Tilke is the most unfairly represented character in motorsport. It's the FIA who set the rules about the massive run off areas, not him. And if the setting is flat and featureless, that's because the land he's been given to work with is flat and featureless, he can't introduce elevation changes into a circuit that is on flat land. I think he dropped the ball with Abu Dhabi, but the ones he has designed, which I think include new Hockenheim, Sepang, Istanbul, Bahrain, Korea and Shanghai, my general impression was that they were more overtaking friendly in the pre-drs era than the classic tracks like Spa/Monza/Silverstone.

[Lights]

It's ironic how Interlagos is so short and simple, yet such a fantastic racetrack which always produces great racing. 

[Kalmake]

Yes, Interlagos, which has been ruined by ridiculous safety improvements.

[FerrariFanInTexas]

classic tracks tend to have very natural and organic undulation and elevation change. Interlagos is awesome in that regard, so are tracks like Spa, Suzuka etc. Actually i havent paid much attention to it and realized until fairly recently.

 

In the meantime, undulation on newer tracks are very contrived...what the hell is that bank at China? Austin's 1st corner? India's T3 and terraced straight after that? etc etc.

 

 

 

I think COTA has several elevation changes other than T1.  I agree T1 is a bit contrived, but it has produced several passes in the mere two races held there.  The extreme width as you enter invites multiple lines, all of which result in a limited range of options as you go back downhill into T2, so it definitely promotes racing.  T9 is also a godd-sized hill, and the run from T9 down through the kink at T10 and into the hairpin is a nice bit of elevation change.  Frankly even the back straight has undulations to it.  It curves slightly, and it has at least one small drop and rise in elevation (as the cars disappear on it when viewed from the lower T15 grandstands.  Finally, T19 is a slight downhill, which makes it a very tricky corner. 

 

As modern tracks go, COTA has some of the best elevation changes/undulations.

[froggy22]

Even if its not the same as the original Interlagos, i still feel the current track suits modern F1 much more than the Tilke tracks do.

[SonnyViceR]

I think Hermann Tilke is the most unfairly represented character in motorsport. It's the FIA who set the rules about the massive run off areas, not him. And if the setting is flat and featureless, that's because the land he's been given to work with is flat and featureless, he can't introduce elevation changes into a circuit that is on flat land. I think he dropped the ball with Abu Dhabi, but the ones he has designed, which I think include new Hockenheim, Sepang, Istanbul, Bahrain, Korea and Shanghai, my general impression was that they were more overtaking friendly in the pre-drs era than the classic tracks like Spa/Monza/Silverstone.

 

Even if you entirely forgive him for the total overdoing of safety areas and creation of such emotionless surroundings, the profile of the circuit still comes from his design office. And it's always exactly the same 5,5 kilometer track we've seen three hundred times before with the familiar fast sections followed by stop-and-go mickey mouse karting cornes and parts that have directly been copy-pasted from other circuits but which end up failing miserably as they're out of context and look soulles in the middle of those parking lots.

 

Which circuits are shown below? They all look the same.  I would have NO FREAKING IDEA if I didn't cheat and look at the metadata or sources

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by SonnyViceR, 25 November 2013 - 17:48.

[tifosi]

Doesn't really do it for me, as, for the most part, the so-called "classic" tracks aren't really classic anymore.  Most of them have been neutered in some way.  I'd say the closest tracks that I would still consider "classic" would be Monza and Interlagos, with Silverstone close.

IMHO, the knee-jerk reactions after San Marino '94 destroyed some of F1 best features.  I'm not saying nothing should have been done nor that safety isn't important, but the total castration of the Imola circuit, quickly followed by others, really took a lot out of F1.  I used to love the pre-94 run up to Tosa, seeing the cars battle for entry, then flying across the "top" to Piratella before plunging into the extremely tricky Aqua-Mineral.  And finally the downhill off-camber Rivazza before flipping through the chicane and going off again.

 

That's just one example of what to me was "classic".  Even Lemos and Ascari have been neutered somewhat these days, not to mention the Bus Stop or Eau Rouge.

 

I realize these changes were all made in the name of safety, and some probalby needed to be, but like the current version of "Lotus" many of these once-great circuits are classic in name only.

[SonnyViceR]

Doesn't really do it for me, as, for the most part, the so-called "classic" tracks aren't really classic anymore.  Most of them have been neutered in some way.  I'd say the closest tracks that I would still consider "classic" would be Monza and Interlagos, with Silverstone close.

 

Silvestone??? There's nothing left of the old feel, just plain garbage now.

 

If you look out of the F1, 90% of the American circuits are still as they used to be 40 years ago. And in Europe Nordschleife (minus the GP loop) is exactly the same, no FIA raping whatsoever. It's actually rather shocking considering how dangerous(ly awesome) it is.

 

Circuit de la Sarthe has unfortunately had rather disturbing modifications during it's course too but it is still pretty old school compared to many of it's European sisters

Edited by SonnyViceR, 25 November 2013 - 17:54.

[tifosi]

Silvestone??? There's nothing left of the old feel, just plain garbage now.

 

 

Yeah, I did hesitate on that.  One of my favorite passes of all time was Mansell flying under the bridge and going around the outside of Senna at Priory after Senna had succesfully held him off for several laps trying teh classic outbraking manauver.  Man, that was awesome.  I forget the year, had to be 89-91 I would think.

[froggy22]

I think Silverstone has kept its high speed nature at least. Interlagos and Spa have kept their natural flow even if they are a lot shorter.

[Skinnyguy]

They do, a bit.

 

And not only the tracks themselves. When you see on a season review the races in the European spring/summer they look different somehow, and for better.

[DutchQuicksilver]

I think Hermann Tilke is the most unfairly represented character in motorsport. It's the FIA who set the rules about the massive run off areas, not him. And if the setting is flat and featureless, that's because the land he's been given to work with is flat and featureless, he can't introduce elevation changes into a circuit that is on flat land. I think he dropped the ball with Abu Dhabi, but the ones he has designed, which I think include new Hockenheim, Sepang, Istanbul, Bahrain, Korea and Shanghai, my general impression was that they were more overtaking friendly in the pre-drs era than the classic tracks like Spa/Monza/Silverstone.

All of Tilke's tracks look the same. Stop, go, chicane, straight, stop, go. Boring as hell. Surely the FIA don't tell him what kind of circuit he has to design.

[Skinnyguy]

All of Tilke's tracks look the same. Stop, go, chicane, straight, stop, go. Boring as hell. Surely the FIA don't tell him what kind of circuit he has to design.

 

No they don´t. Some are good. Some are bad. Some are stop and go. Some are full of flowing looooooong corners. There´s not such a thing as a "Tilke track".

 

But anyway, your comment confirms something I said a while ago that wasn´t popular here: Hockenheim old track was BORING and Tilke would have been bashed to death for bilding something like that.

[Kingshark]

Abu Dhabi is Tilke's biggest abomination, Malaysia and Istanbul are Tilke at his best.

[Anderis]

I'm the one for who it doesn't make difference if it is a classic track or a new track designed by Tilke. I consider every circuit separately.

 

I tend to enjoy some classic circuits, like Spa, but I see nothing special in Monza or Suzuka. The same thing with newer tracks. Many of them are nothing special, but I really enjoy some of them.

 

My 1st tier of my favourite circuits include: Albert Park, Sepang, Shanghai, Montreal, Spa and Interlagos. These are those which I always look forward to.

 

There are some circuits that I'm neutral towards them, and there are some on which I expect a below-par level of enjoyment, including Hungaroring, Monza, Suzuka, Barcelona, Bahrain and India.

 

COTA is really intriguing circuit for qualifying's outcome, but racing there is not as good as I would expect.

[ebeneezer2]

Even if you entirely forgive him for the total overdoing of safety areas and creation of such emotionless surroundings, the profile of the circuit still comes from his design office. And it's always exactly the same 5,5 kilometer track we've seen three hundred times before with the familiar fast sections followed by stop-and-go mickey mouse karting cornes and parts that have directly been copy-pasted from other circuits but which end up failing miserably as they're out of context and look soulles in the middle of those parking lots.

 

Which circuits are shown below? They all look the same.  I would have NO FREAKING IDEA if I didn't cheat and look at the metadata or sources

To be fair I've no idea where any of those corners are, but I'd say the reasons for that are

(1) they're all quite close up, if you zoomed out a bit I might have had a bit of a chance

(2) the bits that aren't related to the track layout, such as the kerbs and barriers, they've been homogenised - but like I say, that's the FIA's doing, not Tilke's

(3) The circuits haven't been around as long as Silverstone, Suzuka etc so just haven't had as much time to build up a recognition factor.

 

Tilke's job is to decide the track layout in such a way that encourages wheel to wheel racing and presents a challenge to drivers, and I think he largely does that pretty well. I just don't see how his circuits are more stop and start or 'mickey mouse' (as an aside, anyone know where that phrase comes from?) than the traditional ones - Sepang is nice and flowing, there's been some excellent action in the first half of the lap there. The second half of the lap at Istanbul was good, new Hockenheim was an overtaking fest without needing DRS. The corners following the long straight at Korea see good scraps too, and stuff often happens from the stretch of Shanghai from the long back straight to the exit of that long windy first corner. I'd say the worst offences on the calendar in terms of mickey mouse sections are Monza's first chicane, Montreal's last chicane, Barcelona's last chicane, the Hungaroring in general....and I'll give you bits of Abu Dhabi too!

[SR388]

I thought Darlington and Pocono provided pretty good racing. Martinsville was great too. So I think the classic tracks can be great!

[Bocmax]

This thread raises something that I've thought for a long time and amazed it's not discussed more - The solution is to shorten all the new Tilke tracks by about 1km. The reason Interlagos works is because it's like an oversized go-kart track. It's short, the cars stay closer together and on the all important TV they appear like they're in a constant sprint. Design issues aside, all the new circuits are around 56 laps, i.e all the same length. I think more variety in this area is needed asap. We need a better spread of races 50+ laps, 60+ laps and 70+ laps - emphasis on the last 2.

[SenorSjon]

That is not it. Spa and the proper Hockenheim track are/were longer. You can see the track AND recognize a corner. If I see a random shot at a Tilke track, I have no clue where the guy is on track. Also, you don't have a speed reference when a straight is as wide as it is long and there are no landmarks whizzing by.

 

No they don´t. Some are good. Some are bad. Some are stop and go. Some are full of flowing looooooong corners. There´s not such a thing as a "Tilke track".

 

But anyway, your comment confirms something I said a while ago that wasn´t popular here: Hockenheim old track was BORING and Tilke would have been bashed to death for bilding something like that.

 

Tilke should have been bashed for raping the track, not the other way around. It is now a lobotomized track which lost his main attraction: raw top speed and zero wing through the stadium section. It is a track of contrast. The buzzing stadium and the serenity of the high speed forest. And I think everyone agrees, the track is losing money and audiences stay away from it.

Edited by SenorSjon, 26 November 2013 - 08:39.

[PayasYouRace]

Silvestone??? There's nothing left of the old feel, just plain garbage now.

 

I don't know. It's always been a flat, fast, featureless airfield. It just has the corners in different places.

[PayasYouRace]

No they don´t. Some are good. Some are bad. Some are stop and go. Some are full of flowing looooooong corners. There´s not such a thing as a "Tilke track".

 

But anyway, your comment confirms something I said a while ago that wasn´t popular here: Hockenheim old track was BORING and Tilke would have been bashed to death for bilding something like that.

 

You only have to read any period description of Hockenheim to see how true that was. Old Hockenheim became a beloved classic in about 2002. It was always considered boring, not particularly challenging, a nightmare for the spectator (most of the track only being visible on TV) and it's only saving grace was that it was fast and required a different set up.

[chunder27]

A lot of the modern tracks still offer a relative challenge.

 

The issue is run off area, which of course means these days tarmac!

 

Most tracks had that essence of danger, Suzuka, Hockenheim, Montreal, as you were unable to make a mistake. Montreal is very high speed and yet there are very few accidents there that result in injury.

 

A lot of these tracks too are great on bikes, Hockenheim was awesome to watch at with bikes, as was Suzuka. But they were very dangerous. On a bike doing 140mph spinning the rear around Spoon I remember Colin Edwards saying, "you know you cant give it everything there as you aren't allowed to crash there"

 

The modern tracks are architectural achievements, nothing more.

[PayasYouRace]

I'd be interested to see what the Tilke track layouts would look like, and how they'd be percieved, if they'd been built with the same safety features as the new circuits of the late 80s/early 90s. Barcelona, Magny-Cours, etc.

 

I'm sure there would still be complaints about the overly tight hairpins and some awkward corners, but then I'm sure many would be raving about some other corners, like the sweeps behind the pits at Shanghai.

 

I think the run-off is half the "problem", and the layout itself is the other half.

[Nonesuch]

I'm sure there would still be complaints about the overly tight hairpins and some awkward corners, but then I'm sure many would be raving about some other corners, like the sweeps behind the pits at Shanghai.

 

My main problem with the new tracks is the over-abundance of 2nd and 3rd gear corners, but this is an interesting point. If you picture in your mind how certain new tracks would look if they had, if not on the outside of a corner then at least on the inside, the same kind of buildings and/or trees that we see at Spa-Francorchamps, Monza, or even Suzuka I have no doubt it'd at least look more interesting. Or perhaps I'm easily fooled.

 

It's a shame that the Koreans made such a mess of their track. It would have been interesting to see that entire project take shape. Then again, it might have ended up like Abu Dhabi.

 

Edited by Nonesuch, 26 November 2013 - 10:09.

[PayasYouRace]

My main problem with the new tracks is the over-abundance of 2nd and 3rd gear corners, but this is an interesting point. If you picture in your mind how certain new tracks would look if they had, if not on the outside of a corner then at least on the inside, the same kind of buildings and/or trees that we see at Spa-Francorchamps, Monza, or even Suzuka I have no doubt it'd at least look more interesting. Or perhaps I'm easily fooled.

 

It's a shame that the Koreans made such a mess of their track. It would have been interesting to see that entire project take shape. Then again, it might have ended up like Abu Dhabi.

 

 

 

I'm not even sure it's that. It's that the 2nd and 3rd gear corners are either boring or too tight and short so they're awkward. Most of Interlagos corners are 2nd or 3rd gear.

[RubalSher]

How was Spa or Canada or Brazil any more exciting this year than the other races?? The only races that are now guaranteed to be exciting are the ones where it rains. Even Spa was dull this year because it did not rain as was Canada.

 

This has nothing to do with traditional circuits vs new ones. The races have been boring for many years now except when it rains.

[Mohican]

How can you not like Suzuka ? Just a pity that 130R has been chicane-ised.

[Skinnyguy]

You only have to read any period description of Hockenheim to see how true that was. Old Hockenheim became a beloved classic in about 2002. It was always considered boring, not particularly challenging, a nightmare for the spectator (most of the track only being visible on TV) and it's only saving grace was that it was fast and required a different set up.

 

Back then I only got excited by it because it was the only way to get the cars from that generation passing. But as a track it was BORING and repetitive, and I´m glad about the changes made. It still gives good racing and I´m sure it´s way more entertaining to drive around it.

[Bleu]

 

Which circuits are shown below? They all look the same.  I would have NO FREAKING IDEA if I didn't cheat and look at the metadata or sources

 

 

 

 

I knew two. Third is China, knowing it from the roofs. Fourth is Istanbul, remembering blue/red/yellow stands. Actually would be more difficult for me if the grandstand was filled