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Hamilton v Bottas Incident Brazil 2013 [split]


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#401 Jvr

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 14:22

Thanks for looking up that reg.


No worries;) It was easy, since the article was mentioned in the actual document containing Stewards' decision.

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#402 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 14:27

On the topic, I am also confused by what is termed as "an avoidable collision". The phrase implies that there are collisions that are "unavoidable". I believe every collision is avoidable and that is why I am not able to understand the line between a racing incident versus an avoidable collision.

Yes, every collision could be avoided by just not racing.  The point is that some collisions are a result of elements coming together in an unpredictable way, while other collisions are careless or a result of overly aggressive driving.  Those are the "avoidable" ones.



#403 trogggy

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 15:11

Only if you assume what we now know to be true, but what couldn't have been known at the time, namely that Rosberg would do what Hamilton should have done, namely bring the car home safely. The "it doesn't matter if I score any points or not because my teammate is doing the job on his own" school of thought would be pretty disastrous if both drivers took it, wouldn't it?

 

And I don't see how it's irrelevant because there's no way that accident would have occurred if Hamilton wasn't trying to prevent Bottas from unlapping himself, and if he was less concerned about overtaking Alonso and more concerned about bringing the car home without taking any risks he wouldn't have minded Bottas unlapping himself and wouldn't have been going off line and losing time defending from Bottas.

The "it doesn't matter if I score any points or not because my teammate is doing the job on his own" school of thought would be pretty disastrous if both drivers took it, wouldn't it?

Yes, it would.  But it's a straw man - where have I, Hamilton or anyone else said that? 

 

As for the second part - he didn't see Bottas.  A mistake?  Yes, obviously.  If he'd seen him it's reasonable to presume that he would have allowed him room and the corner would have been fought as every other corner is fought.

Should he have let Bottas through?  Again, from the comfort of my armchair I can say 'yes.'  I can also say Merc should have been on the radio, telling him to let Bottas through and hang on to him as long as possible with DRS, because he was faster.

All this 'not caring about finishing' is just bollocks though - he didn't crash because he was reckless, he crashed because he didn't see Bottas.  A minor mistake with big consequences, but not a mistake that can be put down to being 'intent on trying to pass Alonso for a podium and he didn‘t want anybody getting between him and Alonso'.



#404 Holdenboy

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 15:13

The "it doesn't matter if I score any points or not because my teammate is doing the job on his own" school of thought would be pretty disastrous if both drivers took it, wouldn't it?

Yes, it would.  But it's a straw man - where have I, Hamilton or anyone else said that? 

 

As for the second part - he didn't see Bottas.  A mistake?  Yes, obviously.  If he'd seen him it's reasonable to presume that he would have allowed him room and the corner would have been fought as every other corner is fought.

Should he have let Bottas through?  Again, from the comfort of my armchair I can say 'yes.'  I can also say Merc should have been on the radio, telling him to let Bottas through and hang on to him as long as possible with DRS, because he was faster.

All this 'not caring about finishing' is just bollocks though - he didn't crash because he was reckless, he crashed because he didn't see Bottas.  A minor mistake with big consequences, but not a mistake that can be put down to being 'intent on trying to pass Alonso for a podium and he didn‘t want anybody getting between him and Alonso'.

 

a reasonable analysis.



#405 redreni

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 15:44

The "it doesn't matter if I score any points or not because my teammate is doing the job on his own" school of thought would be pretty disastrous if both drivers took it, wouldn't it?

Yes, it would.  But it's a straw man - where have I, Hamilton or anyone else said that? 

 

As for the second part - he didn't see Bottas.  A mistake?  Yes, obviously.  If he'd seen him it's reasonable to presume that he would have allowed him room and the corner would have been fought as every other corner is fought.

Should he have let Bottas through?  Again, from the comfort of my armchair I can say 'yes.'  I can also say Merc should have been on the radio, telling him to let Bottas through and hang on to him as long as possible with DRS, because he was faster.

All this 'not caring about finishing' is just bollocks though - he didn't crash because he was reckless, he crashed because he didn't see Bottas.  A minor mistake with big consequences, but not a mistake that can be put down to being 'intent on trying to pass Alonso for a podium and he didn‘t want anybody getting between him and Alonso'.

 

Great, so we're in agreement, then. I took you to be disagreeing with me when I said, WCC-wise, the situation at the time was that Mercedes were in a good position and Hamilton should have been protecting what he had rather than putting it at risk for an outside chance of a podium. Obviously you weren't.

 

Second part, he saw Bottas alright when he moved off the racing line to defend the position. He is, of course, entitled to do that, and his decision to defend did not lead inevitably or inexorably to the collision. There was a further error in, as you say, not seeing Bottas as he was moving back towards the racing line and not anticipating that Bottas might use his KERS to pull alongside him, and without that further error the accident wouldn't have happened. I'm just expressing the opinion that he'd have been better off holding his line and allowing Bottas to get up the inside of him, and that if he'd done that there wouldn't have been an incident here for us to discuss.

 

Regarding what Hamilton should have done with hindsight and the fact that the team could and should have pointed this out to him at the time, I agree completely, and I think Bonnington's comms with Hamilton can be questioned in this instance and, arguably, in general terms.

 

Last part, I commend to you Hamilton's own comments, quoted further up the thread, including "For me I was thinking 'I'm trying to catch Fernando' so if he goes past I might lose time to Fernando"



#406 trogggy

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 16:05

Great, so we're in agreement, then. I took you to be disagreeing with me when I said, WCC-wise, the situation at the time was that Mercedes were in a good position and Hamilton should have been protecting what he had rather than putting it at risk for an outside chance of a podium. Obviously you weren't.

 

I think Hamilton, his RE, Merc as a whole and probably 99.9% of his fans (there's always one) would say he should have been pushing for a podium in his situation, certainly after Massa dropped down the field.  I'd guess the vast majority of neutrals would say the same.

If any Hamilton fans want to correct me I'm happy to be edumacated.



#407 redreni

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 16:20

I think Hamilton, his RE, Merc as a whole and probably 99.9% of his fans (there's always one) would say he should have been pushing for a podium in his situation, certainly after Massa dropped down the field.  I'd guess the vast majority of neutrals would say the same.

If any Hamilton fans want to correct me I'm happy to be edumacated.

 

Right, well, in that case, I don't think the part you bolded out is a straw man argument. I think you need to take something at least very close to that position in order to effectively make your case that it was right to push for a podium finish, unless you think there was no extra risk involved in doing so? Which, given what happened, is a hard case to make, even though I accept that it might have been possible for Hamilton to defend with more care and more skill in a way that would not have resulted in contact. It was inherently riskier to attempt to hold Bottas behind him than to let him through and, as revealed by Hamilton himself post-race, the direct motivation for taking that risk was to not lose out relative to Alonso. It was an extra risk and it was pointless from a WCC perspective.

 

It did matter to Mercedes whether Hamilton remained in the race in a strong points-paying position (it wasn't essential, but it certainly mattered), the very last thing they needed was contact and so, regardless of what Hamilton fans or neutral fans may think, given the overriding importance of Mercedes' WCC objective, no avoidable risk, whether it be attempting to catch and pass Alonso or attempting to hold Bottas back or running too close for too long behind another car or any other avoidable risk of any kind, ought to have been taken.


Edited by redreni, 27 November 2013 - 16:24.


#408 EthanM

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 16:24

It did matter to Mercedes whether Hamilton remained in the race in a strong points-paying position

 

if Mercedes wanted Hamilton to take it easy they should have told him to back off, afaik they didn't. So even if Hamilton crashed out, then Rosberg came up and cut all four of his tyres on piece of carbon fiber left over from Hamilton while crashing out it's none of our business to argue what he should have done re the team. The only thing he should have done is checked his mirrors to ensure he didn't drive into another car,he didn't, he got a penalty, end of story.



#409 trogggy

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 16:34

It did matter to Mercedes whether Hamilton remained in the race in a strong points-paying position (it wasn't essential, but it certainly mattered), the very last thing they needed was contact and so, regardless of what Hamilton fans or neutral fans may think, given the overriding importance of Mercedes' WCC objective, no avoidable risk, whether it be attempting to catch and pass Alonso or attempting to hold Bottas back or running too close for too long behind another car or any other avoidable risk of any kind, ought to have been taken.

If you have - and you very well may have - a snippet of conversation between Hamilton and his RE to the effect of 'Just bring the car home, Lewis, don't take any risks' then you have a point.  Otherwise not.

Do you?



#410 redreni

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 16:43

if Mercedes wanted Hamilton to take it easy they should have told him to back off, afaik they didn't. So even if Hamilton crashed out, then Rosberg came up and cut all four of his tyres on piece of carbon fiber left over from Hamilton while crashing out it's none of our business to argue what he should have done re the team. The only thing he should have done is checked his mirrors to ensure he didn't drive into another car,he didn't, he got a penalty, end of story.

 

I don't see how that would be any more or less our business than anything else that is discussed on this board. And I'd have thought it's pretty obvious, the way the WCC points were at the time, that the Mercedes drivers ought to have been at pains to just bring the car home if they were running strongly in the points, knowing they didn't actually need to beat Ferrari or Lotus. Just as it should have been equally obvious to the Lotus drivers that there was nothing to lose and they should attack, attack, attack.

 

I agree the team could have communicated more effectively with Hamilton and got him to calm down a bit, but I do think it ought to have been pretty obvious to Hamilton that bringing the car home should have been his overriding priority, rather than taking risks trying to improve his position. He knew before the race that there was no need to beat Ferrari.

 

This kind of judgement call is one of the reasons why some drivers crash less than others. Sometimes it's not just about being a bit more careful or looking in your mirrors more or positioning your car a couple of inches further to the left next time; sometimes it's about avoiding unnecessary situations altogether. There was a perfect opportunity to do that for Hamilton - he could have just driven his normal line and allowed Bottas to pass him on the inside. He wasn't obligated to, and he didn't directly cause the accident by his initial defence of the inside line, but he could have avoided a potentially very costly incident if he was in the correct, protective rather than aggressive, mindset for that particular race.



#411 redreni

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 16:47

If you have - and you very well may have - a snippet of conversation between Hamilton and his RE to the effect of 'Just bring the car home, Lewis, don't take any risks' then you have a point.  Otherwise not.

Do you?

 

No and I agree that such a conversation might have helped but, at the same time, it's pretty much common sense and nothing Hamilton couldn't have worked out for himself bearing in mind what we all knew before the race started, in terms of the points situation. The main objective was always to bring it home and not lose big chunks of points to Ferrari. It was known that it would be absolutely fine to finish directly behind them. 



#412 trogggy

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 17:10

No and I agree that such a conversation might have helped but, at the same time, it's pretty much common sense and nothing Hamilton couldn't have worked out for himself bearing in mind what we all knew before the race started, in terms of the points situation. The main objective was always to bring it home and not lose big chunks of points to Ferrari. It was known that it would be absolutely fine to finish directly behind them. 

Your whole position is based on it being a mistake to aim for a podium, and that he should have been driving for a safe points finish to the exclusion of everything else.  That being the case I can't see any way Merc wouldn't have been screaming 'Just finish the bloody race Lewis, we need the points!' down the radio.  Repeatedly.

Not that that would have ensured he checked his right mirror.



#413 redreni

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 17:17

Your whole position is based on it being a mistake to aim for a podium, and that he should have been driving for a safe points finish to the exclusion of everything else.  That being the case I can't see any way Merc wouldn't have been screaming 'Just finish the bloody race Lewis, we need the points!' down the radio.  Repeatedly.

Not that that would have ensured he checked his right mirror.

 

How about because it's just not the done thing keep screaming the same thing repeatedly down the radio, especially when it's something one would assume the driver would be fully well aware of to start with?

 

And no, it wouldn't have ensured he checked his right mirror but if he'd stuck to the normal racing line and not defended the position in the first place Bottas would have been on his left, overtaking him cleanly on the inside, and that's the point.

 

Anyway, I think if we were going to agree we'd have done so by now, so might as well agree to differ on this. I believe we agree on the main point which is, when you analyse the accident itself, it's Hamilton's mistake for moving across the track into Bottas without looking? And from Mercedes' point of view, all's well that ends well.



#414 trogggy

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 17:29

How about because it's just not the done thing keep screaming the same thing repeatedly down the radio, especially when it's something one would assume the driver would be fully well aware of to start with?

 

And no, it wouldn't have ensured he checked his right mirror but if he'd stuck to the normal racing line and not defended the position in the first place Bottas would have been on his left, overtaking him cleanly on the inside, and that's the point.

 

Anyway, I think if we were going to agree we'd have done so by now, so might as well agree to differ on this. I believe we agree on the main point which is, when you analyse the accident itself, it's Hamilton's mistake for moving across the track into Bottas without looking? And from Mercedes' point of view, all's well that ends well.

Not the done thing?

They can see his lap-times, they're in constant communication, if they'd wanted him to cruise to 4th you don't think they'd say so?  Genuinely?

Normally I read the 'He's a racer' crap from the usual suspects and just shake my head, but come on... if they wanted him to settle they would have said so.

And yep, silly mistake - no driver's immune from those.



#415 Holdenboy

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 17:33

How about because it's just not the done thing keep screaming the same thing repeatedly down the radio, especially when it's something one would assume the driver would be fully well aware of to start with?

 

 

So is there any driver on the grid right now that has not had a collission he was at fault for???

 

Am trying to understand what point it is you really want to drive home. 

 

Was Hamilton at fault - Yes (if a blame should be apportioned then its to him)

Could Bothas have helped prevent it- Yes (But that still doesn't absolve Hamilton of the blame)

Did it affect their WCC - No (would coulda shoulda but nada)

how many other drivers have never made this sort of error before - None (So why are we singling this incident out)

 

is there anything else but the above we are missing?


Edited by Holdenboy, 27 November 2013 - 17:34.


#416 redreni

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 17:43

Not the done thing?

They can see his lap-times, they're in constant communication, if they'd wanted him to cruise to 4th you don't think they'd say so?  Genuinely?

Normally I read the 'He's a racer' crap from the usual suspects and just shake my head, but come on... if they wanted him to settle they would have said so.

And yep, silly mistake - no driver's immune from those.

 

I don't know, I don't think Bonnington has much of a clue when he should be talking to his driver, when he can rely on him to work stuff out for himself, when its better to leave him to his own devices etc. I don't think they have particularly effective comms during races, based on what we hear, although maybe that's because they only broadcast the juicy bits. But I half suspect Bonnington's a bit intimidated sometimes, because Hamilton can be pretty testy on the radio in some circumstances.

 

If Hamilton had already been given information about his position relative to Alonso and Massa and to the car behind then it may be that, together with the content of their pre-race discussions, Bonnington took the view that it should have been blindingly obvious that he should settle, in which case telling him to settle might have been considered unnecessary and possibly unhelpful. It's not possible to know. I don't even know for sure that they didn't in fact tell him to settle. Or maybe they were planning to wait until he caught Alonso before telling him not to bother about trying to get past, and not to drive too close.

 

In any case they clearly didn't appreciate the potential for trouble of Bottas closing in at half a second a lap, and I'm sure the next time that happens, Bonnington will be straight on the blower letting Hamilton know whether or not it's worth trying to hold the lapped car back, as they won't want another unnecessary incident.



#417 redreni

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 17:44

 

Am trying to understand what point it is you really want to drive home. 

 

 

 Just the ones I've made. Nothing more.



#418 trogggy

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 17:52

In any case they clearly didn't appreciate the potential for trouble of Bottas closing in at half a second a lap, and I'm sure the next time that happens, Bonnington will be straight on the blower letting Hamilton know whether or not it's worth trying to hold the lapped car back, as they won't want another unnecessary incident.

I agree with that.  But given the Merc pit wall didn't see the potential issues I think it's unreasonable to expect a driver - who is after all fairly busy with other stuff - to do so.



#419 spacekid

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 17:56

how many other drivers have never made this sort of error before - None (So why are we singling this incident out)

 

is there anything else but the above we are missing?

 

Its normal for crashes/incidents involving the 'big' drivers to be discussed. This topic was split from another.

 

I genuinely can't understand why you think this one is being singled out. If Seb or Alonso had done the same thing, I am certain there would be a thread for that too.

 

The only point of contention - as far as I can see it - and the cause of this thread running to 9 pages - is some people hold the opinion that Bottas was to blame for the incident, or at least that Lewis was blameless.

 

Given that, to all appearances, Lewis simply drifted into a car he didn't look for and didn't realise was there, that position is always going to generate debate, especially at a time when there is not much else to talk about.



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#420 tifosiMac

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 18:05

The only point of contention - as far as I can see it - and the cause of this thread running to 9 pages - is some people hold the opinion that Bottas was to blame for the incident, or at least that Lewis was blameless.


Don't forget those of us like myself who suggested both drivers were to blame in some degree, but were lambasted because they thought Lewis was totally to blame. I'm yet to read a post excusing Lewis completely. That is also a point of contention but from a different perspective. To be honest I don't see much point pointing a finger any more when it's just a small racing incident at the end of a season that couldn't come soon enough for most! lol

#421 Gorma

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 18:50

Don't forget those of us like myself who suggested both drivers were to blame in some degree, but were lambasted because they thought Lewis was totally to blame. I'm yet to read a post excusing Lewis completely. That is also a point of contention but from a different perspective. To be honest I don't see much point pointing a finger any more when it's just a small racing incident at the end of a season that couldn't come soon enough for most! lol

Well the only valid reason for blaming Bottas is that he should have known better (as in Lewis isn't always aware of his surroundings). 



#422 autosportfan

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 18:50

Lewis did not swerve. Check the video posted. In Lewis's car at 58 seconds, the steering wheels is virtually level. He drifted right, he did not swerve. And it was not impossible for Bottas to move, he had time and space. I am NOT saying that the incident was Bottas's fault at all, just correcting an untruth.http://www.foxsports...ttas?country=es


Drift of swerve, same result. Too quick to react and Bottas himself said that he would not change a thing if he had to do it again. HAM has space on the inside curve and Bottas left a good gap between them. Careless driving or racing incident... Same result.

#423 DS27

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 19:03

Bottas had a little room to move but I don't think he had .reasonable time to react to Lewis moving over



#424 TT6

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 19:22

I don't think if it's reasonable to expect a driver move away whenever another one makes a move towards (and eventually into) him. On the other hand, when a driver is going to move sideways, it's quite reasonable to expect him to take a quick look to see if there is another car there.

Hamilton failed to notice Bottas on his right. To his defence, it would have been better line in to that corner. But you really can't just pick a line where there is a car already.

#425 REDalert

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 20:53

Bottas fault IMO.Reasons:

- VB didn't manage to complete the overtake at the end of the straight, so he shoudn't have forced it from the outside

- Lack of spatial awareness, since he had room to move to the right

- MERC/HAM were still fighting for high positions [wdc+wcc]

And because you seem to be so unbiased guy, I`d like to know what are your reasons to blame Hamilton on this accident?



#426 MikeV1987

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 21:01

Amazing how many people on this forum are totally unaware of racing etiquette.



#427 swerved

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 21:02

Just for reference this is what Lewis had to say when he unlapped himself.

 

 

“People have had opinions on it,” he said when asked about the move by this writer. “But at the end of the day it doesn’t matter whether I’m first or last, I’m a racer. I race my heart out wherever I am, even if I know in the back of my mind that I can’t get any points, I’m still paid to push at all times. I would expect that if I was a team boss.

“I know my team expect that from me. You would have thought that people would expect that from Fernando, people would expect that from Sebastian, so that’s what I did. I felt quite relaxed after the race knowing that I did. If I’d given up and just pootled around, I would expect to be fired.”

 

He's perfectly right of course, and so is every other driver who takes that view.

 

http://adamcooperf1....ct-to-be-fired/



#428 f1supreme

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 23:10

It was impossible for Bottas to move over when Lewis did his swerve .... It was all too quick. Careless driving from Lewis, that's all.

What swerve are you talking about? What I saw was, Lewis ahead, he then breaks to make the corner, while moving back to the racing line. Bottas breaked later than Lewis, carrying more speed into the corner, which got him alongside lewis. Both drivers could have done more to avoid contact, bottas was coming from behind, trying a risky overtake on the outside, he should have been more careful not just lewis. But some ppl seem to think only lewis should have been more careful. It was a minor incident. It should have been treated as a racing incident. Why are stewards so eager to punish a driver when contact is made, it's ridiculous. From what I've seen, many well respected ppl in f1 think the punishment was harsh.

#429 f1supreme

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 23:20

So Gary Anderson, David coultard, James allen, and now montezemolo also thinks the decision to punish lewis was wrong. These ppl know more about f1 than we do, Racing incident imo.

#430 Buttoneer

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 00:08

The decision not to penalise is different from the one to attribute blame.



#431 tifosiMac

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 08:13

Just for reference this is what Lewis had to say when he unlapped himself.

 

 

“People have had opinions on it,” he said when asked about the move by this writer. “But at the end of the day it doesn’t matter whether I’m first or last, I’m a racer. I race my heart out wherever I am, even if I know in the back of my mind that I can’t get any points, I’m still paid to push at all times. I would expect that if I was a team boss.

“I know my team expect that from me. You would have thought that people would expect that from Fernando, people would expect that from Sebastian, so that’s what I did. I felt quite relaxed after the race knowing that I did. If I’d given up and just pootled around, I would expect to be fired.”

 

He's perfectly right of course, and so is every other driver who takes that view.

 

http://adamcooperf1....ct-to-be-fired/

He is perfectly right but that was a totally different incident wasn't it?

If we relate it to Bottas as I think you are doing then yes Bottas was entitled to unlap himself. Has anybody said otherwise? I don't think the unlapping was the problem here.



#432 redreni

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 09:24

Amazing how many people on this forum are totally unaware of racing etiquette.


Oh yes? Care to enlighten us?

#433 swerved

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 14:03

These. Bottas is 1 lap down, after failling to use the DRS to get pass, he should have backed off. 

 

 

In principal, my view is that a lapped car should never race to unlap himself. But after Germany 2012 and the defence Hamilton and Martin Whitmarsh put up afterwards, I think this is exactly what Hamilton deserves.

And if we are treating this incident as a normal racing racing situation, then it is 100% Hamiltons fault. You just can't steer into another car.

 

 

Exactly. Since when have lapped cars unlapping themselves, and doing it at very questionable parts of the track, become widely accepted in F1? To me Bottas had no business being there, trying to unlap himself in the first place. What many seem to have forgotten is that the guy was a backmarker, who had been lapped and he shouldn't have been interfering with a leader's race like that unless Hamilton was significantly slower for some reason, and as far as I'm aware he wasn't.

 

 

He is perfectly right but that was a totally different incident wasn't it?

If we relate it to Bottas as I think you are doing then yes Bottas was entitled to unlap himself. Has anybody said otherwise? I don't think the unlapping was the problem here.

 

 

Yes, it was a totally different incident, which is why i provided the link, and yes someone has said otherwise, both in general terms and in relation to Bottas specifically, as i've highlighted above.

 

Something from the interview with Lewis that f1ultimate posted is interesting given what i quoted in my post about Lewis's attitude to unlapping 

 

"No, he couldn't have gone round the outside, plus he was a lap down," Hamilton argued

 

I wonder what is the significance of "plus he was a lap down", perhaps he thinks only certain drivers should be free to try and unlap themselves.



#434 tifosiMac

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 14:13

"No, he couldn't have gone round the outside, plus he was a lap down," Hamilton argued

 

I wonder what is the significance of "plus he was a lap down", perhaps he thinks only certain drivers should be free to try and unlap themselves.

I don't know what Hamilton meant by that either? I wouldn't want to make assumptions or impose an arrogant slant to it because he may have implied a different meaning to it.

 

I do think if we are going to analyse everything a racing drivers says and then contradicts when the circumstances don't suit, we would have a hard time. Just about every racing driver on the grid is guilty of that, not just Lewis. Its a bit like us as fans when we discuss things to do with our favourite drivers too. We may defend an incident one race and then criticise an opposing driver in another for an identical offence. I just think its a massive can of worms trying to point to contradictions. The sport is full of them and these drivers are only ever interested in looking after their own best interests. You have to be selfish to succeed in Formula One. :)



#435 jjcale

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 14:39

So Gary Anderson, David coultard, James allen, and now montezemolo also thinks the decision to punish lewis was wrong. These ppl know more about f1 than we do, Racing incident imo.

 

Speak for yourself :p   ... I called it as a racing incident from the second re-watch.


Edited by jjcale, 28 November 2013 - 14:40.


#436 paulrobs

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 11:45

The thing that always troubles me about incidents like this is that drivers are expected to go out onto the circuit in every session and race and make no mistakes when driving/racing side by side with other drivers at very high speeds, even more so in this era of massively different closing speeds (DRS) and massively different performance at different times of the race due to tyre degredation. Then, if they do make a mistake there has to be blame, no matter how marginal, and action taken. It looked to me that Hamilton left enough space on the outside but wasn't aware just how close Bottas was. It also looked to me that Bottas assumed Hamilton had seen him and therefore knew that Bottas was faster at that point and about to attempt a pass. I saw mistakes on both sides - (i) Mercedes should have pre-warned Hamilton he had a very fast closing Bottas on fresh tyres a lap down. (ii) Hamilton moved slightly across in the entry zone to the corner. (iii) Bottas had quite a bit more space that he could have used to his right to avoid any chance of a contact before the contact took place, ie lining up as far over to the right as possible to avoid any chance of a contact - they were extremely close approaching the braking zone. (iii) Bottas had fresh tyres and had been closing at over a second a lap and with his much greater traction advantage could have likely passed Hamilton in a number of other areas of the track without needing to risk the actual move he made. Penalties though. How on earth can you penalise a driver in a situation like this, it was so borderline that surely it has to be a racing incident? It spoilt the race for both drivers without the need to resort to a penalty for Hamilton. I was watching a recording of the race and I kept rewinding to look at the incident and it just wasn't clear cut to me and didn't deserve a penalty given that Hamilton's penalty was alreay to have to limp back to the pits for a large part of the lap. It's a race, drivers will make misjudgements, there will be incidents, there will be offs and there will be mistakes. You just can't analysis every single incident and apportion blame and dish out a penalties when drivers make minor misjudgements and minor mistakes. It's not cricket.