34 replies to this topic

[ardbeg]

* I never really understood Massas penalty and after reading the Analysis I am even more confused since A) It feels like a very weird definition of what is illegal and not since there is no real markings to go after and B) it seemed to me many drivers was violating the rules stated in the article.

 

* Hamilton/Bottas. Obviously Hamilton was at fault here, so normally it would not be anything to discuss had there not been...

*The Maldonado/Vergne incident. Granted, it was less severe in terms of danger, but in my opinion much more severe in terms of driver conduct. "It is a very hard place [to overtake] to understand it - I didn't see him," Maldonado said. While it is possible that Hamilton did not see Bottas it is impossible that Maldonado did not see Vergne. He moved big, he moved ugly. How could they not give him a penalty?

Explain to me.

 

EDIT: As you might have realized, this thread is intended to be more about consistent rulings than the incidents themselves, so if there is any reasonable arguments for the Massa and Maldonado rulings, i am very interested in understanding them.

Edited by ardbeg, 24 November 2013 - 22:16.

[PayasYouRace]

The Massa incident was the most clear cut of all. The drivers were told not to cut the corner. He cut the corner.

[SenorSjon]

And many before and after him did and did not get any penalty. It was just weird.

[Pyrone89]

Well, according to this Mercedes actually whined to the FIA about Felipe:

http://www.f1reader....zilian-gp-88398

Edited by Pyrone89, 24 November 2013 - 22:43.

[ardbeg]

The Massa incident was the most clear cut of all. The drivers were told not to cut the corner. He cut the corner.

Indeed, he cut the corner, but the whole point A,B,C,D for that pit entry is just absurd. How are viewers supposed understand what happened when they see other drivers doing, from their point of view in front of the TV set, exactly the same thing without getting any penalty.
It would have been so easy to just say "the white line marks the track edge, you are not allowed to drive on the outside it unless you are going to the pits".
 

[Ellios]

Have only seen the race live and not watched any replays but didn't Vettel also cut the corner on the last lap as he took the flag?

[Pyrone89]

He did, but one does not simply punish Vettel 

[P123]

We heard Massa being warned over the radio, we also heard Webber being warned by his team with regards cutting the pitlane entry line.  He must have done it more than once to get the penalty.  It seems harsh, especially if you consider the sheer number of occasions where cutting the track goes unpunished, but if the drivers were told beforehand not to do it and he crossed the line despite that and the in-race warning then he really has no cause to complain.

[ardbeg]

There is of course some irony in that we are first told that "nobody know this track better than Felipe Massa" and then he is the only driver penalized for driving it wrong

[MikeV1987]

Massa was told more than once not to cross the line but he still did it, i thought it was harsh but rules are rules. As for Maldonado, he's a prime example of how not to race, he has no respect for anyone on track. It's pretty clear that Hamilton was in the wrong there too.

[Arry2k]

We heard Massa being warned over the radio, we also heard Webber being warned by his team with regards cutting the pitlane entry line.  He must have done it more than once to get the penalty.  It seems harsh, especially if you consider the sheer number of occasions where cutting the track goes unpunished, but if the drivers were told beforehand not to do it and he crossed the line despite that and the in-race warning then he really has no cause to complain.

This. The matter was raised ahead of the race, a directive issued, mutiple warnings issued and Massa ignored all of them. He has only himself to blame.

[BenettonB192]

He did, but one does not simply punish Vettel 

 

Well he didn't.

 

[Jejking]

This. The matter was raised ahead of the race, a directive issued, mutiple warnings issued and Massa ignored all of them. He has only himself to blame.

At first I was like wtf, but it seemed more drivers were directed to don't do it anymore earlier in the weekend. Massa made his life worse today, and that's unfortunate, but he shouldn't have done that anyway.

[Pyrone89]

Well he didn't.

 

Dont you have a better shot? This is as bad as it can be for the point we are discussing.

[stillOrange]

Well, this is good enough to clearly see that Seb did not cross the boundaries with both wheels. Wasn't that the point?

[BenettonB192]

Dont you have a better shot? This is as bad as it can be for the point we are discussing.

 

Ther's everything you need to know in this shot. His two right wheels are clearly on the track.

[Atreiu]

How was Maldonado's and Vergne's incident? I missed it.

[ardbeg]

How was Maldonado's and Vergne's incident? I missed it.

[ThadGreen]

According to Will Buxton Charlie Whiting told the drivers during a meeting to imagine that there is a brick wall at the pit entrance and if you run over it you will be penalized.

Edited by ThadGreen, 25 November 2013 - 02:20.

[Atreiu]

That was a **** happens collision. It's a late apex corner that can lead to paths crossing, especially if the move is half completed by the time they reach the apex. That being said, Maldonado could have been more cautious.

IMO.

Edited by Atreiu, 25 November 2013 - 02:55.

[pingu666]

I THINK that maldo one is worse than hamilton bottas one tbh

[DanardiF1]

I agree, but it's typical Maldonado... never gives a sh** about who is where on the track.

[PayasYouRace]

And many before and after him did and did not get any penalty. It was just weird.

 

 

Indeed, he cut the corner, but the whole point A,B,C,D for that pit entry is just absurd. How are viewers supposed understand what happened when they see other drivers doing, from their point of view in front of the TV set, exactly the same thing without getting any penalty.
It would have been so easy to just say "the white line marks the track edge, you are not allowed to drive on the outside it unless you are going to the pits".
 

 

There's a clear gap in the line to help indicate which part is which. C-D is the edge of the track. A-B is the pit boundary line and as such both sides of it are part of the track. It's the same as at any other circuit. It's just that on most circuits the triangle between C,D and the pitlane isn't a useful shortcut.

 

Massa is the only driver I can remember who clearly cut the C-D line with all four wheels. Others clipped the corner C with a couple of wheels, so I guess that just earned a warning.

[stillOrange]

Could I guide you guys to my little tiny post here? http://forums.autosp...ough/?p=6516665

I put up some pictures!

[SenorSjon]

According to Will Buxton Charlie Whiting told the drivers during a meeting to imagine that there is a brick wall at the pit entrance and if you run over it you will be penalized.

He should say that more often. The whole season people skip the boundaries and now he is punishing it? Well, skip the last race for that rule as well then. Or place a wall on the whole white line (not just the striped bit) even before the corner and they have to drive around it. Just like the pit exit.

[ardbeg]

That was a **** happens collision. It's a late apex corner that can lead to paths crossing, especially if the move is half completed by the time they reach the apex. That being said, Maldonado could have been more cautious.

IMO.

In that case Hamilton/Bottas was more of a "**** happens collision", but I think the idea is that **** should not happen. Maldonado claims he did not see Vergne, but even if that's true, he should have. At one point he must have realized Vergne was there and he could have left room, but he didn't. Hamilton did not really have that chance since his eyes was directed towards the apex. It does not change the fact that Hamilton was "guilty" and deserved a penalty though. But so did Maldonado.

[Zava]

Dont you have a better shot? This is as bad as it can be for the point we are discussing.

doesn't really matter, even if he left it, that would be only his first one, which only earns a warning.

[redreni]

Indeed, he cut the corner, but the whole point A,B,C,D for that pit entry is just absurd. How are viewers supposed understand what happened when they see other drivers doing, from their point of view in front of the TV set, exactly the same thing without getting any penalty.
It would have been so easy to just say "the white line marks the track edge, you are not allowed to drive on the outside it unless you are going to the pits".
 

 

It's not ideal from the point of view of simplicity and viewer comprehension but it's necessary to have these very specific rules due to the nature of the track layout there. Basically the FIA has tried in years gone by to ban drivers from crossing the white line at all, and the drivers and teams whined about it so much that Whiting immediately backed down. Can't remember what year that was, but it was about 2002ish when crossing the line was banned on Friday but allowed again by Saturday. I think the concern was that it is very bumpy if you go the long way around and it could cause excessive plank wear and/or an accident (to which I'd have thought the response should be "increase your ride height, then", but anyway the teams had their way).

 

If you can't ban crossing the white line altogether you do still need to do something to prevent cars that are staying out colliding with cars that are coming into the pits, which is why it is forbidden to cross the white line when entering the pits. This forces cars that are pitting to keep left rather than making a late sweep across the racing line whilst decelerating. That rule's worked perfectly well for at least the last 10 years and there haven't been any accidents or near misses caused by pit-entry-related issues as far as I know. It's a dangerous part of the track and there have been several injuries and a couple of fatalities there in stock cars, plus a big accident involving Webber and Alonso in 2003, but it's been people losing it in the wet and then coming back off the wall and being collected by the pack, not people tripping over cars that are pitting.

 

The rule about not crossing the chevrons was invented by Whiting last Thursday, as far as I know, and you'd have to ask him what purpose he thinks that rule serves. As far as I can see it's just a pointless bit of officiousness on his part, but having made the rule, he should have enforced it consistently. Maybe Massa did it more than the others, but I suspect the truth is Charlie has no idea exactly who did or didn't cut across the chevrons with all four wheels, or how many times they did so, and he only warned Massa about it and subsequently penalised him because Mercedes complained (which was very astute of them in the circumstances bering in mind the threat Ferrari were posing them).

 

Massa was warned, though, so he shouldn't have pushed his luck. He can't really complain even if other people were doing it. Maybe the stewards didn't see. It doesn't mean they were wrong to penalise him when he was breaking the rules and not heeding their warnings.

[Currahee]

What happened between Perez and di Resta at turn 12 on the 1st lap?

 

i never saw anything on the footage. The stewards obviously never saw anything either.

[Jon83]

He should say that more often. The whole season people skip the boundaries and now he is punishing it? Well, skip the last race for that rule as well then. Or place a wall on the whole white line (not just the striped bit) even before the corner and they have to drive around it. Just like the pit exit.

 

This is the problem. In other races, all 4 wheels off the track and no punishment.

 

Some of the penalties dished out throughout the season have been farcical IMO.

[redreni]

According to Will Buxton Charlie Whiting told the drivers during a meeting to imagine that there is a brick wall at the pit entrance and if you run over it you will be penalized.

 

Eduardo Freitas apparently told the WEC drivers at this year's 6 hours of Sau Paulo something very similar: if you're not pitting, the white line is invisible, but if you are pitting, it's a brick wall. That's essentially always been the rule at this track, ever since people started worrying about the white pit entry and exit lines in the first place (which was only about 12-15 years ago).

 

I've no idea why Whiting wanted to change it for this year and dress it up as a track limits issue, especially when three weeks ago he was telling Autosport that it would be impractical and pointless to check to see if people were persistently or systematically exceeding the track limits at corners where there was little or nothing to be gained from doing so.

 

EDIT: Whiting also referred Massa to the stewards for the wrong thing. He referred him for "crossing the white line at pit entry" but that would only apply to a car that was entering the pits, since you are allowed to cross the white line if you're staying out. If Whiting is saying the white line between the track and the chevrons, and between the pit entry and the chevrons, is the track edge, then he should refer Massa to the stewards for exceeding track limits. But interestingly he can't really do that because it is the expressed view of the FIA, as reported in Autosport, that there should be no penalty for deliberately and systematically exceeding the track limits unless an advantage is gained:

 

'The FIA said "The current rule does not say a driver cannot leave the track, it says that he may not gain an advantage by leaving the track."' http://www.autosport....php/id/111199/

 

If Whiting had referred Massa to the stewards for a penalty for exceeding track limits even though there was no clear advantage, it would be tantamount to admitting that his normal approach to drivers track limits is wrong (which it is).

Edited by redreni, 26 November 2013 - 16:24.

[DampMongoose]

This is the problem. In other races, all 4 wheels off the track and no punishment.

 

Some of the penalties dished out throughout the season have been farcical IMO.

 

Why change the habits of a lifetime? 

[Burtros]

This is one of those times where I am really struggling to understand why some people find it so hard to understand why Massa got his Penalty. Even without all the ABCD stuff too, which only further exonerates Vettel.

 

He did, but one does not simply punish Vettel 

 

Massa cut the corner more than once. He was warned on the radio, we all heard it. We all then saw him do it again' live. Its clear cut as to why Vettel didnt get one - he only did it once which is whats being reported. I think comments like the above are at best mischievous.

 

Add in the ABCD stuff and its clear Vettel wouldnt have got a warning even for what he did, which was different technically to Massa's line.

 

On the others -

 

Hamilton clear cut for me, deserved penalty as it removed the rival from the race

Maldonado - I expected a penalty to be honest. That said, it was more of a racing incident than the other, and in mitigation Vergne carried on whilst Maldonado spun. Perhaps I can begin to understand that one.

Edited by Burtros, 26 November 2013 - 16:26.

[PilgrimsDrop]

Dont you have a better shot? This is as bad as it can be for the point we are discussing.

[DampMongoose]

Totally off topic but in your profile picture Burtros, is that a 5dr Manta or a Cavalier?  Just curious as my Dad had a Cavalier Sporthatch in the early 80's and don't see much like it these days, didn't think they did a 5dr over here?

 

On topic, I'd have expected a penalty for Maldonado and Hamilton, both were clumsy and warranted a slapped wrist for lack of awareness.  I don't understand the attitude of if the car you hit continues it's ok not to receive a penalty...