130 replies to this topic

[Kingshark]

There was quite a bit of debate on the Ferrari topic about Alonso's comments that he finished 2nd in the WDC with what was perhaps not the second best car. This only leaves to question who did have the second best car in 2013? The 1st half of 2013 was competitive and Red Bull were still beatable, which is where Mercedes, Ferrari and Lotus scored their combined 6 wins. In the second half of the season, Red Bull crushed the opposition, but the scrap for 2nd place in the constructors went all the way to Brazil.

 

Constructors championship

 

2. AMG Mercedes-Benz

Wins: 3

Poles: 8

Podiums: 9

Points: 360

Laps lead: 177

 

3. Scuderia Ferrari

Wins: 2

Poles: 0

Podiums: 10

Points: 354

Laps lead: 99

 

4. Lotus Renault

Wins: 1

Poles: 0

Podiums: 14

Points: 315

Laps lead: 77

Edited by Kingshark, 24 November 2013 - 23:33.

[mnmracer]

Mercedes > Ferrari > Lotus

Different per race, but overall not much between the

While what Alonso's saying is technically true, the difference is not to such an extent that he had Mount Everest-size hurdles to overcome. Vettel and Alonso this year simply showed why they're in a league of their own.

Edited by mnmracer, 24 November 2013 - 23:40.

[Kingshark]

In my opinion, Lotus was overall the second best car closely followed by Mercedes. Merc was a monster in qualifying, with 8 pole positions, but all too often the Lotus' pace was simply supreme in the race. Ferrari, despite the great car that they had early on in the season, fell back like a stone after Monaco and never really recovered (apart from Spa-Monza).

Edited by Kingshark, 24 November 2013 - 23:38.

[andyF1]

Can we not vote for the Korean fire truck?

[Kingshark]

Can we not vote for the Korean fire truck?

 

That would be a runaway winner.

[krea]

The Mercedes was extremely fast in the first half of the season - fastest car in Q3. Too bad it couldn't handle the tires.

But I would say the Ferrari was the best car on the most tracks.

[Cenotaph]

My vote goes to mercedes, bit it kinda is more complicated than that. Ferrari was perhaps an easier car to get 2nd in the WDC despite not being the 2nd best car, if that makes sense

[DanardiF1]

What's funny is that Mercedes had problems with the 1st Pirelli's, yet still won 3 races on them, and then when they were changed, had no chance.

 

Mercedes had the 2nd best car. It was the only one that anything near the downforce of the RB9. It might not have been the better race car, but 2nd in WCC shows that both their drivers did well in it. Alonso's superb efforts somewhat masked Ferrari's flaws, and whilst the Lotus was a good car on Sundays, for most of the season neither driver could get enough out of it to do anything on Saturday.

[Atreiu]

There is not much between them, I don't know. Neither team had both drivers consistently delivering the best results possible through the season, so it's not like either maxed out on its potential.

 

If we simply by go the highest scoring driver for each team, I'd say Ferrari. But it is evident they lost a lot in the development race after Barcelona. Mercedes looked good and step away from finding the balance between speed and tyre management, but the new tyres seemed to puzzle them too much. And after Lotus spent the entire year suffering in qualifying, Grosjean came alive while Kimi lost his mojo and then left entirely.

 

It's too hard to tell.

 

I think Alonso, the best driver of these three teams, would have been second in the WDC no matter which car he had all year long.

[UPRC]

Mercedes, no question about it. If Red Bull hadn't been so good, Hamilton and Rosberg could've walked it.

[Bawdy]

Hard to say. The Merc was clearly the best of the three in qualys while Lotus and to a lesser extent Ferrari were a tad better on race day. Then again Mercedes never really had any big slumps and they actually won more races than Ferrari/Lotus, so ultimately my choice would be Merc. The final points table is in fact pretty accurate.

[halifaxf1fan]

Mercedes was the second best car.  However the reason they were able to achieve this was because of the illegal 3 day test which gave them a huge mid season surge.

 

ps.  From a business viewpoint though it was a brilliant success for Mercedes grabbing three wins and eventually 2nd in the wcc.  They were sitting in fourth place at the time of the test which taken to the end in wcc dollars is a huge $17 Million dollar payoff versus 2nd place!

 

http://www.hindustan...le1-949214.aspx

 

From a sporting perspective this was a horrible incident.  F1 at its worst.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 26 November 2013 - 22:32.

[Schumacher7]

I'd say probably the Lotus but it was close between all three, be nice if next year the cars are just as close with Red Bull on the same lines as well.

[InSearchOfThe]

Obviously Mercedes. They finished 2nd in the WCC. It couldn't be any more simple than that!

[DrF]

Webber

[Shiroo]

I would say Lotus.

THey didn't end 2nd in WCC because:

a) Grosjean had terrible luck and misfortune with the car till like Germany

b) Kimi left 2 races before the end of the season (I believe they could take 3-4 in Austin)

c) Their quali pace improved after new tyres

d) The car was good anywhere, except Spa and Monza (though it was 4-6 there as well possible).

[Kingshark]

Obviously Mercedes. They finished 2nd in the WCC. It couldn't be any more simple than that!

 

It's not that simple. In 2010 for instance, McLaren finished 2nd in the constructors championship, but I felt that Ferrari had the better car (Alonso beat both LH and JB, but Massa was the let down). Driver performance can have a substantial effect on the final standings.

[sock22]

This is an interesting question and the more I thought about it the more I had to break the season down. Of course, it is between Ferrari, Mercedes and Lotus.

 

Australia-Spain (first 5 races):

Tyre wear was a big issue, particularly for Mercedes. Overall, Ferrari was strongest of the three, followed by Lotus and then Mercedes.

 

Monaco-Hungary (next 5 races):

Mercedes' form fluctuated depending on the tyre situation. Ferrari's form deteriorated. Lotus had tough races in Monaco and Canada but bounced back strongly. Mercedes best in this period, followed by Lotus and then Ferrari.

 

Belgium-Singapore (next 3 races):

The form remained fairly static in these three races, with Ferrari doing well, followed by Lotus while Mercedes struggled a little.

 

Korea-Brazil (last 6 races):

Ferrari tailed off, leaving Lotus as second best overall, closely followed by Mercedes.

 

Overall it's very close, but I'd give it to Lotus, followed by Mercedes with Ferrari fourth. This raises the question as to how the WCC standings ended up how they did.

- Lotus lost a lot of points, first with Grosjean in the first half and then with Raikkonen/Kovalainen in the last five races.

- Mercedes and Ferrari both lost a handful of points but were more consistent overall

- To show this statistically, Lotus had 14 podiums to Ferrari's 10 and Mercedes' 9 (suggesting better pace over the year)...

- ...but only 27 points finishes to Mercedes' 33 and Ferrari's 32

[stillOrange]

Very close between these three teams but I voted Ferrari.
I think Massa's performance is the reason Ferrari were not 2nd on points.

[Kyo]

Really close between them and impossible to be sure, but if I were a driver and could choose between the three cars for a season, I would go with Lotus>Ferrari>Mercedes

[Kingshark]

I have made a list where I tally each GP and give it to the team which (I believe) had the best car out of the three in that race.

 

Mercedes

- Malaysia

- Monaco

- Silverstone

- Hungary

- India

- Abu Dhabi.

 

Ferrari

- China

- Spain

- Canada

- Belgium

- Monza

- Brazil.

 

Lotus

- Australia

- Bahrain

- Germany

- Korea

- Japan

- USA

 

That would put all three team at 6 races each! Talk about it being close! 

 

Note: I did not give Singapore to anyone because I felt that the three teams were far too close in performance overall, and trying to seperate them would be splitting hairs.

Edited by Kingshark, 25 November 2013 - 03:44.

[Thomas99]

Over the season Lotus. Ferrari and Merc have been more peaky, some weekends seeming the best package, but Lotus has been up there nearly every race.

[senna da silva]

The Merc was good in qualifying but the Ferrari and Lotus were far superior in race trim. My nod goes to Lotus.

[hollowstar]

In qualifying, obviously the Merc. In the races, the Lotus was the best package in terms of aero / downforce, and making the most of the Pirellis, before and after they were changed. The podiums that Kimi and Romain were able to score, even when starting far off on the grid, prove the car was really, really good.   Ferrari was not very far behind, though. 

[Gorma]

Tough to make a call on Ferrari. Massa has been such an underperfomer for years that the true pace of Ferrari has been a mystery. 

[KiloWatt]

Extremely close one.  All of them were very good cars.  But on balance, I'd give it to the merc because I'm biased.

[dreamer]

All of them were really close but I have to go with Mercedes because they had more wins and it was the only car that could challenge Red Bull for the pole position this year.

[Wander]

Chronologically, the right answer is Fercotus.

[2020]

I have made a list where I tally each GP and give it to the team which (I believe) had the best car out of the three in that race.

 

Mercedes

- Malaysia

- Monaco

- Silverstone

- Hungary

- India

- Abu Dhabi.

 

Ferrari

- China

- Spain

- Canada

- Belgium

- Monza

- Brazil.

 

Lotus

- Australia

- Bahrain

- Germany

- Korea

- Japan

- USA

 

That would put all three team at 6 races each! Talk about it being close! 

 

Note: I did not give Singapore to anyone because I felt that the three teams were far too close in performance overall, and trying to seperate them would be splitting hairs.

 

That's a flawed way to look at it, because you are ignoring the races where for example the Ferrari was 3rd quickest behind the other two teams like Hungary. You need to compare each one to each other then see the totals, whicb results in Ferrari being distant 3rd team. Not sure how you concluded all 3 teams were evenly matched in Singapore when Ferrari qualified 1 second behind and only came second due to strategy.

 

Lotus was clearly superior to Ferrari in 9 races

 

Australia

Germany

Hungary

Singapore

Korea 

Japan

India

Abu Dhabi

USA

 

Ferrari

 

Sepang

Bahrain

Canada

Spa

Italy

 

 

In the rest they were quite close, even in Spain and China. All of this is even before you factor in the Alonso factor, so its pretty clear the Lotus was clearly better.

[Shiroo]

That's a flawed way to look at it, because you are ignoring the races where for example the Ferrari was 3rd quickest behind the other two teams like Hungary. You need to compare each one to each other then see the totals, whicb results in Ferrari being distant 3rd team. Not sure how you concluded all 3 teams were evenly matched in Singapore when Ferrari qualified 1 second behind and only came second due to strategy.

 

Lotus was clearly superior to Ferrari in 9 races

 

Australia

Germany

Hungary

Singapore

Korea 

Japan

India

Abu Dhabi

USA

 

Ferrari

 

Sepang

Bahrain

Canada

Spa

Italy

 

 

In the rest they were quite close, even in Spain and China. All of this is even before you factor in the Alonso factor, so its pretty clear the Lotus was clearly better.

 

 

Bahrain for Ferrari? I mean... why?

[2020]

Bahrain for Ferrari? I mean... why?

 

They were much quicker in qualifying, but their races were ruined by various issues so its fair to give that weekend to Ferrari. 

[seahawk]

I am 50:50 between the Merc and the Lotus.

[DaddyCool]

"Best" is a very loose term when it comes to rankings like this, and does not take into account strategy, trackside operations, and driver form.

[Jackmancer]

Merc was the 2nd best car, in some races even the best. Ohw how I'd love to had seen Schumacher in that car in this year.

[syolase]

Ferrari. They screwed a lot of points early in the championship, and if u switch Massa for example to the Hulk, they are easily 2nd in the constructors. Merc came only second thanks to their drivers.

 

BTW: This topic is the perfect example that Alonso's mindgames are working.

Edited by syolase, 25 November 2013 - 07:53.

[Zava]

mercedes was aided by having 2 top line drivers, in contrast to ferrari (and lotus, though Grosjean turned his season around, and can be considered pretty good now, but his first half was poor)

 

edit: heh, syolase

Edited by Zava, 25 November 2013 - 07:53.

[Kingshark]

BTW: This topic is the perfect example that Alonso's mindgames are working.

 

Nonsense, Lotus have had a car at least as quick as Ferrari this season, if not quicker. I am not making this claim based on my like/dislike of Alonso (unlike some people), but rather based on logical and analytic thinking.

 

Check out 2020's post.

 

Mercedes is difficult to compare with Lotus and Ferrari, because the WO4 is such a polar opposite to the E21 and F138. It was a beast in qualifying and the only car that regularly challenged the RB9 for pole, but in many races its tyre wear and race pace was simply abysmal.

 

Bahrain, Spain, and Germany spring to mind as races where Mercedes dominated everyone on Saturday, yet looked like a Caterham on Sunday

Edited by Kingshark, 25 November 2013 - 08:06.

[Shiroo]

Nonsense, Lotus have had a car at least as quick as Ferrari this season, if not quicker. I am not making this claim based on my like/dislike of Alonso (unlike some people), but rather based on logical and analytic thinking.

 

Check out 2020's post.

 

Mercedes is difficult to compare with Lotus and Ferrari, because the WO4 is such a polar opposite to the E21 and F138. It was a beast in qualifying and the only car that regularly challenged the RB9 for pole, but in many races its tyre wear and race pace was simply abysmal.

 

Bahrain, Spain, and Germany spring to mind as races where Mercedes dominated everyone on Saturday, yet looked like a Caterham on Sunday

 

I wish they would look like them. Caterham is one sexy crocodile.

[Lights]

Mercedes, by a millimeter.

 

It's been incredibly close over the season between these three. Imagine picking one of these cars for each venue, you'd pick each about the same amount of times. Without Red Bull this championship would have been classic.

[JazH]

Ferrari. Massa underperformed in the car, and in the races Ferrari always seemed to have the pace to deal with it.

[keeppari]

I gave it to Ferrari. They looked strong early in the season but lost a load of points because of various incidents (Malaysia & Bahrain) when it looked like they could be able to challenge the Red Bulls. Also Massa was almost as badly off the pace most season as Kovalainen was during the last two races.

 

Very close though.

Edited by keeppari, 25 November 2013 - 08:51.

[DrF]

It's not "the car" it's the package of car and driver with the pit wall, mechanics, etc.

Vettel is part of the package which worked best with the current set of regulations.

[SonJR]

Fluctuated by race, but I get the impression the Mercedes was 2nd best in the first half and the Lotus in the 2nd. The Lotus was stronger than it appeared in the first half too, but Grosjean took a little time to get going this year.

[jedioriginal]

Mercedez

[kimister]

Mercedes

[TT6]

Of course it has to be Ferrari. If Massa would have been in the level of Alonso, Ferrari would have had at least 100 points more. Mercedes car was flattered by two top performing drivers. Lotus would have benfitted if Räikkönen would have participated in all the races and if Grosjean would have been on his game earlier.

[sv401]

Ferrari > Mercedes makes sense if one considers Alonso and Hamilton to be about equal, then Rosberg vs. Massa can easily make up the 6 points of difference in the WCC. Although if the question is specifically which car (rather than car+team) is better, then it should also be taken into account that Mercedes and Ferrari might not have lost the same amount of points due to team mistakes (bad strategy etc.). Lotus vs. either of the other two teams is harder to compare, we will see next season how good Raikkonen is relative to Alonso in equal cars.

[Nonesuch]

Despite their late-season slump, I'm going with Ferrari - but it was very close and there are probably decent arguments for all teams.

 

Why Mercedes? More points. More wins. Great qualifying. Two strong drivers.

Why Ferrari? Good enough for 2nd in the WDC. Very strong in the early races.

Why Lotus? Very consistent. Strong second half of the season.

 

Ultimately I think it was the drivers that made the difference. Rosberg-Hamilton were, in my opinion, a stronger pairing than Alonso-Massa or Räikkönen-Grosjean over the whole season.

 

Grosjean had a bad first half of the season, and while Massa was more consistent, he just wasn't on the same level as Alonso. Rosberg and Hamilton were more evenly matched, and often made the most out of the situations in which the Mercedes could score big points.

 

Percentage of points scored by the drivers:

 

Edited by Nonesuch, 25 November 2013 - 11:12.

[beute]

Ferrari > Mercedes makes sense if one considers Alonso and Hamilton to be about equal, then Rosberg vs. Massa can easily make up the 6 points of difference in the WCC. Although if the question is specifically which car (rather than car+team) is better, then it should also be taken into account that Mercedes and Ferrari might not have lost the same amount of points due to team mistakes (bad strategy etc.). Lotus vs. either of the other two teams is harder to compare, we will see next season how good Raikkonen is relative to Alonso in equal cars.

and that is exactly what one should not do!
drivers are not constants, Im tired of saying this...
their performances can change dramatically,even mid-season.
there are so many factors that contribute to a drivers performance that you just cannot make assumptions like that.

2007 is long gone, we have different cars and the drivers work for different teams now.
I would say lewis has gotten weaker compared to his 07 performance, while alonso upped his.

Edited by beute, 25 November 2013 - 11:26.

[ElDictatore]

Difficult to say. I would say Mercedes had clearly the better one-lap performance but I wouldn't call it the second best car. It wasn't kind to it's tyres, race-pace was sometimes really low compared to Lotus or Ferrari. However, first half I would say Ferrari and Lotus were the better cars, while Mercedes was better in the second half of the season.