36 replies to this topic

[Baddoer]

What was that for?

[Gilles4Ever]

Analysis: Why Massa was penalised during Brazilian GP

 

He ignored the directive sent out before the race, the picture makes it fairly obvious

[Seanspeed]

Why did Massa get penalized and Webber only reprimanded? 

[SenorSjon]

It was a bit random as I saw multiple drivers do it before and after the Massa DT. Odd that on Tilkedromes, the track limits are for the 'general direction' only and on this track it warrants a DT.

[PayasYouRace]

Tilkedromes don't tend to have the end of the pit wall so close to the racing line.

[stillOrange]

This is why Massa got the penalty

 

 

This is why Webber (or any other driver) didn't

 

 

They were allowed to cross the single line but not to go over the chevroned area with all wheels.

 

[Youichi]

Why did Massa get penalized and Webber only reprimanded? 

 

Massa got a reprimand, possibly several, and then still did it again, so he got a penalty.

[SenorSjon]

Tilkedromes don't tend to have the end of the pit wall so close to the racing line.

They tend to have no walls at all.

[Buttoneer]

71 laps and 22 cars.  Can someone post up the same pics as above for all laps please?

 

2 pictures per car per lap so that's...um...twelvety.

 

Genuinely interested to know whether Massa was hard done by here.  I think it's clear he was bang to rights in the images above but was the penalty inconsistent?

[SenorSjon]

There was a replay from a Sauber overtake around that punishment. It looked like he skipped that bit as well.

[stillOrange]

I can't recall any other driver being showed crossing the chevroned area like Massa ...

[Seanspeed]

Hmm, that does seem to be quite a different 'degree' there.  Thanks Orange.  Hard to argue against that, I think. 

[PayasYouRace]

It would probably help if the pitlane lines were painted yellow. I think they used to be at one time (on some tracks). AB would be yellow, CD would be white and it would be more obvious that they mean different things.

[stillOrange]

There was a replay from a Sauber overtake around that punishment. It looked like he skipped that bit as well.

 

You must be talking about this one:

 

 

As I have far too much time on my hands today:

Massa might have been warned at the lap 28

 

and than penalised for lap 29?

 

And now a little bonus:

Charlie has been quite lenient where it comes to cutting corners

 

Both Felipe and Lewis had all four wheels inside the white line at some point at this corner.

 

Don't thank me

[santababy]

Surprise Ross Brawn admitted his drivers (Hamilton & Rosberg) reported Massa's driving.

[SenorSjon]

On 28 he had two wheels ontrack, 29 as well. Just like many others.

[EvanRainer]

On 28 he had two wheels ontrack, 29 as well. Just like many others.

 

Do you actually have any evidence for those "many others" ? Do you have evidence that they did it more than once?

 

There is no indication what so ever that Massa was treated unfairly. If you are going to make the claim that he did, you should at least be providing some evidence.

[stillOrange]

On 28 he had two wheels ontrack, 29 as well. Just like many others.

 

I'm pretty sure the two pictures from my first post were on lap 29, just different camera. He was off.

Edited by stillOrange, 25 November 2013 - 11:57.

[KavB]

71 laps and 22 cars.  Can someone post up the same pics as above for all laps please?

 

2 pictures per car per lap so that's...um...twelvety.

 

Genuinely interested to know whether Massa was hard done by here.  I think it's clear he was bang to rights in the images above but was the penalty inconsistent?

Exactly what I was thinking during the race. How can they have checked every car's line for every single lap of the race? There is no way they could have. There were probably other drivers who broke the rule too but the stewards did not see it on their screens when it happened.

[Kristian]

 

And now a little bonus:

Charlie has been quite lenient where it comes to cutting corners

 

Both Felipe and Lewis had all four wheels inside the white line at some point at this corner.

 

Don't thank me

 

 

 

Those kerbs have always been 'cut', I remember it happening even in the 1990s (it seemed so unusual at the time!).

[Jerem]

 

 

And now a little bonus:

Charlie has been quite lenient where it comes to cutting corners

 

Both Felipe and Lewis had all four wheels inside the white line at some point at this corner.

 

Don't thank me

 

 

 

Those kerbs have always been 'cut', I remember it happening even in the 1990s (it seemed so unusual at the time!).

 

As has the white line on pit entry

[Jon83]

Exactly what I was thinking during the race. How can they have checked every car's line for every single lap of the race? There is no way they could have. There were probably other drivers who broke the rule too but the stewards did not see it on their screens when it happened.

 

My guess would be they were alerted to what was apparently going on. Kind of fits with what was stated in post 15.

[SenorSjon]

Do you actually have any evidence for those "many others" ? Do you have evidence that they did it more than once?

 

There is no indication what so ever that Massa was treated unfairly. If you are going to make the claim that he did, you should at least be providing some evidence.

You would need the video feed from that camera. But any image of 2013 is one to many. What an abysmal season.

[PayasYouRace]

You would need the video feed from that camera. But any image of 2013 is one to many. What an abysmal season.

 

So basically, you don't have any evidence, and have no desire to provide any evidence. Why should your claim have any merit?

 

You've been shown Massa cutting the corner. You've been shown other drivers getting close but not actually going all the way over the line. Now it's up to you to provide evidence that anybody else did it the way Felipe did.

[PayasYouRace]

 

 

And now a little bonus:

Charlie has been quite lenient where it comes to cutting corners

 

Both Felipe and Lewis had all four wheels inside the white line at some point at this corner.

 

Don't thank me

 

 

 

Those kerbs have always been 'cut', I remember it happening even in the 1990s (it seemed so unusual at the time!).

 

 

 

As has the white line on pit entry

 

If something goes wrong while cutting the Laranja you won't have a face full of concrete wall at 250km/h though.

 

I never understood why they reverted to the current pit entry format in 1999. The layout they had in 1996-98 was much safer, with the wall going all the way round the inside of that kink, and no cutting through the pitlane entrance was possible.

[fabr68]

This was the multi-million wcc dollar penalty.

If one driver just get a warning, why does another get.a drive-through for violating the same restriction?

Once again, others toying with Ferrari on the political stage

[BRG]

I never understood why they reverted to the current pit entry format in 1999. The layout they had in 1996-98 was much safer, with the wall going all the way round the inside of that kink, and no cutting through the pitlane entrance was possible.

Yes.  This pit lane entry has annoyed me for years.  Why is such an unsafe design allowed?  It is only time before there is a bad accident there,  if a car was limping into the pits and Reggie Racingdriver comes barrelling around the corner at full chat using the pit lane entry as part of the track .  

 

Hopefully the planned redesign of Interlagos will finally remove this unnecessary hazard.

[TheUltimateWorrier]

What was that for?

 

He got himself a Big Mac and super-size french fries with an apple pie for dessert. He wanted an Egg McMuffin, but they stopped serving that after 11am.

[SenorSjon]

So basically, you don't have any evidence, and have no desire to provide any evidence. Why should your claim have any merit?

 

You've been shown Massa cutting the corner. You've been shown other drivers getting close but not actually going all the way over the line. Now it's up to you to provide evidence that anybody else did it the way Felipe did.

I don't have the feed from the camera. F1-coverage is only BBC or RTL Deutschland here.

[PayasYouRace]

Yes.  This pit lane entry has annoyed me for years.  Why is such an unsafe design allowed?  It is only time before there is a bad accident there,  if a car was limping into the pits and Reggie Racingdriver comes barrelling around the corner at full chat using the pit lane entry as part of the track .  

 

Hopefully the planned redesign of Interlagos will finally remove this unnecessary hazard.

 

Not to mention that there's nothing on the other side of the only wall present after the kink (see the overhead shots above). There's a bit of armco which ends before the yellow stripes and there's no protection until the pitwall starts a few 10s of metres further on. It resulted in Grosjean having to run along a live track for a while after his engine blowup.

[PayasYouRace]

I don't have the feed from the camera. F1-coverage is only BBC or RTL Deutschland here.

 

Well then you'd better put the claim to bed until you find some evidence.

[EvanRainer]

Regarding the "corner cutting":

 

I don't know why we have to keep explaining this. For the hundredth time, local rules apply. The fact there is a white line there is irrelevant, the limits of the track are whatever they decide them to be(which is funny to have to explain seeing how tracks are arbitrarily decided in a given space anyway). They get told it's ok to do that therefore it's part of the track. 

 

They don't "cheat" and they let them go just because.

[Fastcake]

Yes. This pit lane entry has annoyed me for years. Why is such an unsafe design allowed? It is only time before there is a bad accident there, if a car was limping into the pits and Reggie Racingdriver comes barrelling around the corner at full chat using the pit lane entry as part of the track .

Hopefully the planned redesign of Interlagos will finally remove this unnecessary hazard.

I fully agree. It's really baffling how a lot of less dangerous areas have been altered, but this pit lane still exists.

[ThomFi]

This was the multi-million wcc dollar penalty.

If one driver just get a warning, why does another get.a drive-through for violating the same restriction?

Once again, others toying with Ferrari on the political stage

 

Oh the irony.

Do you remember last year's Brazilian GP and all the fuss about Vettel's alleged overtaking under yellow and the role, the Spanish/Italian Media and Ferrari played in it, although Vettel did nothing wrong.

But in the case of Massa,  who ignored a track limits rule clarification before the race and a warning on the radio, then it's others toying with Ferrari on the political stage.

[KingTiger]

It's very clear, you can't cross the line when you're going into the pits.

 

As has the white line on pit entry

 

Not when you go into the pits.

[August]

As it was Massa, cutting the pit entry was OK. If it was the other Ferrari driver, a drive-through wouldn't have been enough, even though most of this forum wouldn't believe Alonso would get a similar penalty.

[redreni]

Regarding the "corner cutting":
 
I don't know why we have to keep explaining this. For the hundredth time, local rules apply. The fact there is a white line there is irrelevant, the limits of the track are whatever they decide them to be(which is funny to have to explain seeing how tracks are arbitrarily decided in a given space anyway). They get told it's ok to do that therefore it's part of the track. 
 
They don't "cheat" and they let them go just because.

That appears to be the case in practice but it‘s a bloody silly way of running a sport. Why not put the white lines wherever they need to go to correctly denote the track edge so that viewers know what‘s going on? And in any case, it doesn‘t say that in the Sporting Regulations, in fact it says the white lines define the racetrack. It‘s also not what Whiting said when he told Autosport he wasn‘t going to bother to enforce track limits because, contrary to all the available evidence, nobody ever gains an advantage by systematically driving with all four wheels off track. He didn‘t actually say that he felt he had a right to overrule the regulations and, as I mentioned on the track limits thread, we know the FIA doesn‘t think Whiting can overrule the Sporting Regulations because they said precisely that in their testimony to the International Tribunal in the Mercedes tyre testing case.