89 replies to this topic

[chrcol]

So simple question, why did vettel slow down to the point many cars unlapped themselves?

[DutchQuicksilver]

Well not to consider giving Webber the win. I don't know, give people the idea that it's more exciting because he could have a problem?

[EthanM]

rain coming, stretch out the stint all he can in case he can avoid an extra stop

[Ryan94]

Definitely not to give Webber the win!

[Zava]

So simple question, why did vettel slow down to the point many cars unlapped themselves?

it was a short lap, so cars (that otherwise wouldn't get lapped, and reveal this phenomenon) got just lapped after their second stops, but were faster on new tyres than the front runners on old tyres, so they unlapped themselves. this led to the Hamilton-Bottas incident as well.

Edited by Zava, 26 November 2013 - 19:47.

[DampMongoose]

Maybe he's a bit **** when the track conditions are difficult?

[chrcol]

it was a short lap, so cars (that otherwise wouldn't get lapped, and reveal this phenomenon) got just lapped after their second stops, but were faster on new tyres than the front runners on old tyres, so they unlapped themselves. this led to the Hamilton-Bottas incident as well.

 

ok I guess is plausible, according to sky presenters he was actually slowing right down tho by many seconds a lap but its possible they were off the ball as those guys get a fair few things wrong during races.

[Sardukar]

He had a huge lead and there was a possablity of a safety car, so he slowed right down to drag the lap out just in case.

[syolase]

no

[Zava]

no

/thread

[Racer3]

Maybe he's a bit **** when the track conditions are difficult?

Yeah, as can be seen from his shitty pole lap in these wet conditions--only 1 sec faster than his team mate

[jjcale]

Part of me would like to think so..... and it would have done SV's reputation no end of good.

[redreni]

I doubt it. Mind you, I was surprised he didn‘t at least try to get fastest lap off Webber at the end, so maybe there was a gesture of some sort. Vettel doesn‘t strike me as the sort to give away wins. It wouldn‘t help him much popularity-wise if he did so, just as it didn‘t when Schumacher did it.

[P0inters]

ok I guess is plausible, according to sky presenters he was actually slowing right down tho by many seconds a lap but its possible they were off the ball as those guys get a fair few things wrong during races.

Well at the time his fastest lap was 1.16.something and he was doing 1.18.somethings so he was slowing down quite a bit.

[plumtree]

rain coming, stretch out the stint all he can in case he can avoid an extra stop

 

it was a short lap, so cars (that otherwise wouldn't get lapped, and reveal this phenomenon) got just lapped after their second stops, but were faster on new tyres than the front runners on old tyres, so they unlapped themselves. this led to the Hamilton-Bottas incident as well.

Add to these, Vettel's pace wasn't too slower compared to Webber's and Alonso's.  

 

From lap 38 (Sutil's 2nd pitstop) to lap 47 http://en.mclarenf-1...=1_2_3_10_15_19 

(*Lap 44, Vettel lost about a second, letting Sutil unlap and then following him through sector 2 whose 2nd sector time was very slow on that particular lap for whatever reason)

[scheivlak]

Around that time some people took fresh tyres like Bottas (remember how must faster he suddenly was than Hamilton!) and Sutil. They were immediately 2 seconds faster than the leaders on their worn tyres, be it Vettel, Webber, Alonso or Hamilton.

 

So it was just a case of fresh tyres vs. worn tyres.

[noikeee]

Part of me would like to think so..... and it would have done SV's reputation no end of good.

Yeah, like it did no end of good to Schumacher when he tried to give Rubens that win at Indy as payback for Austria... oh wait.

[LoudHoward]

As people have said, he wasn't slowing down. Sky was getting it wrong, his gap to Webber was relatively stable, letting people through on fresh boots doesn't always equal slowing down.

[Buttoneer]

Vettel wouldn't do it, and I think Webber would have thought less of himself for taking it.  So no.

[bourbon]

Part of me would like to think so..... and it would have done SV's reputation no end of good.

 

Disagree - vigorously.  

 

Sebastian would look a complete fool giving up on achieving a historical record in order to gift a win to a teammate who has shown no regard for him whatsoever. 

 

In my view, I think you should reconsider why it is you would see his reputation in a more positive light as a result of him screwing himself over.   And perhaps also explain why the majority would not look upon Mark with disdain if he happily accepted a gift win from any other driver.  Is he really that big of a charity case?  

[paulrobs]

No chance at all. I doubt Vettel would **** on Webber if Webber was on fire. I think Vettel needs to lose a few championships to gain a bit of humility and perspective on what he has achieved before he'd even begin to feel like he'd do something like this.

[DanardiF1]

ok I guess is plausible, according to sky presenters he was actually slowing right down tho by many seconds a lap but its possible they were off the ball as those guys get a fair few things wrong during races.

 

He lost maybe a second each on a couple of laps, but nothing major. It was just caused by the lapped cars having made recent pitstops on a short lap where the crossover between old and new tyre laptimes was relatively close..,. Vettel was playing it safe and stretching his stint out incase rain came, so why bother matching pace to drivers who are nowhere near him in the race and are on a completely different strategy?

 

I don't think there was any way he was going to gift Mark a win.

Edited by DanardiF1, 26 November 2013 - 23:11.

[Gemini]

My guess is just they wanted to save some fuel. Maybe they tanked up a bit short expecting some laps in wet race. My second guess they wanted to give Vettel some broadcast time as otherwise he would not be on air untill donuts ;-)

[lbennie]

No chance at all. I doubt Vettel would **** on Webber if Webber was on fire. I think Vettel needs to lose a few championships to gain a bit of humility and perspective on what he has achieved before he'd even begin to feel like he'd do something like this.

 

With all due respect, that is a load of crap. They have been on relatively good terms lately. Seb also had many nice things to say about mark afterwards and visa versa. 

 

Having said that, gifting a win is silly.

Deep down the fans wouldn't want it.

Mark wouldn't want it.

Seb wouldn't want it.

Nothing to gain for anyone in that scenario.

 

Seb showed mark respect by driving at 100% - like any other race. And mark wouldn't want it any other way.

[August]

So simple question, why did vettel slow down to the point many cars unlapped themselves?

 

When there was that unlapping, I think Webbo wasnt driving any faster.

 

And if he was gonna give Webbo the win, he would've given. It was 1-2 for them so he would've slowed down and Webbo would've passed him.

[tifosi]

I remember Senna doing this for Berger.  But then Senna, despite his faults, was truly a man of class.

[OvDrone]

humble op, why you like small caps so much

[ThomFi]

I remember Senna doing this for Berger.  But then Senna, despite his faults, was truly a man of class.

 

And Berger was not happy at all, because he felt it was somewhat humiliating. It was good to see Mark on the podium in his last race, but a gifted win would have done more harm than good.

 

The quote about the issue is from Berger's book "Zielgerade".
Die "große Geste" war öd, denn wenn es ihm ein wirkliches Herzensbedürfnis gewesen wäre, mir als Ausgleich für meine verpatzte Saison etwas Gutes zu tun, dann hätte er ja zehn Runden vor Schluss nachlassen können, wir hätten gemeinsam eine Show gemacht und am Ende hätte ich halt gewonnen. So aber hat er der ganzen Welt gezeigt, wer der Herr im Haus ist, und das er sich´s vom Stand der WM her leisten kann, auch dem kleinen Berger etwas Nettes zukommen zu lassen. Die Tatsache, das ich durch meinem Auspuff wirklich gehandicapt war, wurde damit völlig weggewischt, und es blieb nur die brillante Demonstration seiner Stärke und seiner herzensguten Großzügigkeit.
Offiziell musste ich natürlich gute Mine dazu machen, aber innerlich war ich angefressen. Ich glaube, er hat das auch gespürt, jedenfalls sprachen wir danach kein einziges Wort darüber, ich hab mich also nicht bedankt, und er hat sich auch nicht drüber ausgelassen, was er mit der Aktion bezwecken wollte. Unsere Freundschaft hat darunter aber nicht gelitten, es bestärkte mich bloß in jenem Quäntchen Misstrauen, das ich ihm gegenüber behielt, zumindest solang wir im selben Team waren.

Google "translation":
The " grand gesture " was desolate , because if he would have been a real heartfelt need to do me in return for my botched season something good, then he would have to subside ten laps to go , we would have together made a show and at the end I had just won . But if he has shown all over the world , who is the master of the house , and that he can afford it the state of the World Cup here, to send something nice also the small Berger . The fact that I was really handicapped by my exhaust was so completely wiped out , and there remained only the brilliant demonstration of his strength and his good-hearted generosity.
Officially, of course, I had to make mine good idea, but inside I was pissed . I think he has also felt , anyway, we spoke afterwards not a single word about it , I am not so grateful , and he has also not left out about it, what he wanted to achieve with the action. Our friendship has not suffered but underneath , it confirmed me in just that little bit of distrust that I kept him over , at least as long as we were on the same team.


 

[plumtree]

Regarding 1991 Japanese GP, https://audioboo.fm/...991-japanese-gp this was Jo Ramirez's description of the event.

It would have gone down well with the public, had Vettel done anything like that?    Also the relationship between Vettel and Webber was totally different from that of Senna and Berger's. Vettel had hardly any support from Webber either.

 

With all due respect, that is a load of crap. They have been on relatively good terms lately. Seb also had many nice things to say about mark afterwards and visa versa. 

 

Having said that, gifting a win is silly.

Deep down the fans wouldn't want it.

Mark wouldn't want it.

Seb wouldn't want it.

Nothing to gain for anyone in that scenario.

 

Seb showed mark respect by driving at 100% - like any other race. And mark wouldn't want it any other way.

Well said.

[OvDrone]

Make Vettel concede a win and Webber look like Barrichello? Please shoot me in the gut and left knee instead, thanks.

[fabr68]

The Multi-21 incident from Malaysia will be another asterisk Vettel will have to deal with.

 

Although people like to trash Webber, many forget that it was Webber's wins and points he took from Alonso in 2010 and 2012 the key that granted Vettel his championships.

 

We will see how Ricciardo performs.  Hopefully he will not be Vettel's Massa.

[Atreiu]

If he was he must have discarded it uncerimoniously.

[Gorma]

The Multi-21 incident from Malaysia will be another asterisk Vettel will have to deal with.

 

Although people like to trash Webber, many forget that it was Webber's wins and points he took from Alonso in 2010 and 2012 the key that granted Vettel his championships.

 

We will see how Ricciardo performs.  Hopefully he will not be Vettel's Massa.

Are you serious? Vettel should be thankful to Webber for attending the races?  

[bourbon]

The Multi-21 incident from Malaysia will be another asterisk Vettel will have to deal with.

 

And Mark will have to deal with the Brazil 12 asterisk.  I don't think Seb and Mark care at this point.  So in truth, it is the fans that will have to deal with it until we are finally ready to let it go.

 

Although people like to trash Webber, many forget that it was Webber's wins and points he took from Alonso in 2010 and 2012 the key that granted Vettel his championships.

 

That is nonsense.  Alonso could have won either year and you'd be saying the same thing about Mark, only in terms of Seb.

 

 

We will see how Ricciardo performs.  Hopefully he will not be Vettel's Massa.

 

 

We agree on something.  .   He looks to have speed, and he's young and gunning for it, so there is every reason to be optimistic.

[Gorma]

And Mark will have to deal with the Brazil 12 asterisk.  I don't think Seb and Mark care at this point.  So in truth, it is the fans that will have to deal with it until we are finally ready to let it go.

 

As far as asterisks go the multi21 it's still quite far from Singapore 2008 or Austria 2002.

Edited by Gorma, 27 November 2013 - 05:27.

[bourbon]

As far as asterisks go the multi21 it's still quite far from Singapore 2008 or Austria 2002.

 

There was nothing dangerous regarding either asterisk in this case.  Those are in another league, because lives were at risk. 

 

Here, a championship and a win were in the balance - anger inducing, but not criminal.  That is why eventually, people will let it go - and why the drivers probably already have.

 

Nonetheless, it was too soon to ask either driver to dole out favors.  Seb had history to make besides, so the answer would have to be no - legitimately.  Mark wouldn't like it either.

[kimster89]

No, it would look completly hypocritical after Malaysia and in all the world would see its a farce. You dont give wins away.

[Eff One 2002]

I briefly wondered about this during the closing stages of the race. It would have meant Webber would have ended his career with a win count in double digits with 10, and would have of course also meant that Webber won his last GP. It would have also have been a nice way for Vettel to have addressed his questionable conduct at the Malaysian GP. Knowing Webber though, he wouldn't have wanted to have been gifted that win as it would have been hollow and tainted. Vettel is trying to set records and drive for himself though so it was naver gonna happen, nor should it have.

[Henri Greuter]

Definitely not to give Webber the win. Vettel surrendering what may well be his once in a lifetime chance to equal the Ascari record? No way.

Besides that, I doubt if Mark would have wanted the win is such a manner that it was easy for everyone to see that he was gifted a present by a teammate, so blatant ans so obviously clear that it was a gift like we saw at Suzuka 1991. I don't think Mark would have lowered himself to take the victory in such a manner.
If the Ascari record had not been at stake anymore, maybe, just maybe then. But not this time.

Henri

[LuckyStrike1]

No [/learntoreadarace]

[HoldenRT]

I don't understand how so many people can lack the understanding of basic strategy.  Especially if they've been watching more than a few years.  I guess not everyone watches with live timing.. but it's not a good sign if even the diehards who post on forums can't understand the basic fundamental of a sport.

 

And I don't just mean in this topic, but in general.  It's not rocket science.  Rocket science is designing these cars in the first place.  If you don't watch the race with live timing.. I suggest trying to get a laptop beside you while watching.. you might be surprised suddenly about how less "boring" F1 is.

[tifosiMac]

I don't think giving Webber the win even entered his mind. I would have respected him immensely if he had done this as I think it would have been a nice parting gesture to a team mate who hadn't had the best working relationship with, but I don't think Vettel is that sort of character. He had a record to achieve and to be honest I liked the fact Webber finished second. It showed he was still competitive on merit and goes off to Porsche with a smile on his face.

[kenkip]

I honestly dont understand why people think Seb owes Webber ANYTHING!Mark has acted questionably numerous times,he is not the saint being painted by his fans and the media and I dont expect him to be a saint.He is a racing driver born to win and will manipulate anything,in his case the press and fans to capitalise on any gains he can make psycologicaly on his rivals.This is one aspect he has beaten Seb black and blue over the last four years.

 

I would have lost respect for Seb if he moved over because;

1. Like schumacher,everyone knows he is a serial winning machine and gifting wins is not in his DNA.
2. As I am sure he already knows,he is a hated figure in formula one and gifting a win to Mark would not change that.
3. The fans would see right through it as a PR stunt
4. He owes Mark nothing.Webber has ignored team orders in the past

IMO the number two driver who was owed anything would be Felipe Massa,a loyal servant to Alonso over the years.It was great to see Alonso was willing to give him a podium.(we will never know if he would,it may just have been lip service)

[DevilsCry]

I don't understand why the wishes of gifting people wins/podiums. This is racing, not charity! I love the way the Red Bulls fight each other hard for positions. Wish Ferrari, Mercedes and Lotus also let the drivers fight each other instead of issuing lameass orders.

[tifosiMac]

I honestly dont understand why people think Seb owes Webber ANYTHING!Mark has acted questionably numerous times,he is not the saint being painted by his fans and the media and I dont expect him to be a saint.He is a racing driver born to win and will manipulate anything,in his case the press and fans to capitalise on any gains he can make psycologicaly on his rivals.This is one aspect he has beaten Seb black and blue over the last four years.

 

I would have lost respect for Seb if he moved over because;

1. Like schumacher,everyone knows he is a serial winning machine and gifting wins is not in his DNA.
2. As I am sure he already knows,he is a hated figure in formula one and gifting a win to Mark would not change that.
3. The fans would see right through it as a PR stunt
4. He owes Mark nothing.Webber has ignored team orders in the past

IMO the number two driver who was owed anything would be Felipe Massa,a loyal servant to Alonso over the years.It was great to see Alonso was willing to give him a podium.(we will never know if he would,it may just have been lip service)

I can understand what you are saying but many felt Webber made the Brazilian GP difficult for Vettel last season when he was fighting for the championship, yet Webber didn't owe Vettel the right to an easy pass then either IMO. I think their rivalry sums up their time together. They raced for themselves.and themselves only. Thats the way it should be I feel. I think Webber is liked more by the fans because of the way he comes across. He appears genuine and a tough racer who may not neccessarily be the best out there. People can relate to that and in all the incidents where these two have clashed over the years, Webber has always been portrayed as the guy on the outside. Red Bull have always publically had Vettels back. That may have been because he is young and they want to protect their investment, but this creates a public perception and one they might not like. It was an interesting time and I have to say I think Webber has come away looking very good indeed.

[Shiroo]

There is no way that Webber would like such "last win". 

Unless Vettel would want to make absolute **** out of Webber showing everyone, that only way for Webber to win versus him, was a gift.

And I highly doubt that Vettel is such person. 

 

So basically, if he wanted a win: C'mon, come and get it.

[tifosiMac]

There is no way that Webber would like such "last win". 

Unless Vettel would want to make absolute **** out of Webber showing everyone, that only way for Webber to win versus him, was a gift.

And I highly doubt that Vettel is such person. 

I don't think Webber would have appreciated it even if for the fans it would have been nice to see. Webber would probably have been very uncomplimentary about the whole thing and with these guys being racers, they want to win on merit. The only exception from history that I can remember was between Barrichello and Schumacher in 2002, but Michael re-paid the gift Rubens gave him earlier in the season. It was all square and both drivers will remember the races where they should have won on merit anyway. In fact I think Ruben's has the Austria 1st place trophy in his cabinet to this day even though on paper he didn't win it. I read that somewhere.

 

I don't think people would think the only way Webber could win against Vettel is to be gifted a win though. We have to remember Webber has beaten Vettel on merit 9 times in the past. On his day Webber was untouchable, its just those days were very rare in comparison to Vettel's. Mark is 10 years older than Vettel too so to be so close in his last race was commendable. I think there were a few smiles at Porsche after seeing that on Sunday.

Edited by tifosiMac, 27 November 2013 - 08:56.

[sharo]

Vettel wouldn't do it, and I think Webber would have thought less of himself for taking it.  So no.

My thoughts too.

A self earned second place is far more precious than a gifted win. And those guys, all of them, are not there to play Santa Clause.

[kenkip]

I can understand what you are saying but many felt Webber made the Brazilian GP difficult for Vettel last season when he was fighting for the championship, yet Webber didn't owe Vettel the right to an easy pass then either IMO. I think their rivalry sums up their time together. They raced for themselves.and themselves only. Thats the way it should be I feel. I think Webber is liked more by the fans because of the way he comes across. He appears genuine and a tough racer who may not neccessarily be the best out there. People can relate to that and in all the incidents where these two have clashed over the years, Webber has always been portrayed as the guy on the outside. Red Bull have always publically had Vettels back. That may have been because he is young and they want to protect their investment, but this creates a public perception and one they might not like. It was an interesting time and I have to say I think Webber has come away looking very good indeed.

Good post.I think you have put my thoughts in writting better than me!

One thing  I always wonder about Webber,if he was dominating the sport like seb,would he be hated?

[DampMongoose]

No, it would look completly hypocritical after Malaysia and in all the world would see its a farce. You dont give wins away.

 

Senna did for Berger, and he's seen by many as the second coming...