89 replies to this topic

[Henri Greuter]

 

Senna did for Berger, and he's seen by many as the second coming...

Senna only did it because team orders told him to do so and even very late in the race he asked if he still had to do it. Only when told he had to, he handed the win by almost parking in the last turn. To make it clear that he had to surrender the win he made it very obvious to see for everyone who saw in on track or TV
( Someehow, i think that the fact he had to so so infuriated him intensely and spiced him up for the press conference after the race in which he unloaded about Suzuka 1990. But that's another story/topic....)

[tifosiMac]

One thing  I always wonder about Webber,if he was dominating the sport like seb,would he be hated?

Not sure to be honest. Not all World Champion's are hated to the point Seb appears to be. Button and Raikkonen are not hated and I don't remember Schumacher getting as much negativity directed his way when he was racking up the Championships. I think a lot of Vettel's negativity comes from silly things to be honest. His finger after qualifying and victories could be greeted with the same distain England rugby player Chris Ashton gets when he celebrates a try with a swan dive. Many in rugby believe it is arrogant and although the finger doesn't bother me, I've chatted with people who don't like it. I also think Red Bull's public persona reflects upon Vettel too as it often comes across as quite smug. Then again if you win 4 titles back to back I think any team has the right to be smug, but its these little things that contribute to the opinion's of the masses. Vettel is certainly not the most liked WDC of recent times, but I'm sure he is not the sole reason less people are watching the sport worldwide. He seems nice kid out of the car, although I must admit I can't warm to him on the track. Perhaps his talent is something I will appreciate once this era in finished. I never liked Mansell until I looked back on his career and realised what a great driver he actually was. I was too blinded by Senna back then

[DampMongoose]

 

Senna only did it because team orders told him to do so and even very late in the race he asked if he still had to do it. Only when told he had to, he handed the win by almost parking in the last turn. To make it clear that he had to surrender the win he made it very obvious to see for everyone who saw in on track or TV
( Someehow, i think that the fact he had to so so infuriated him intensely and spiced him up for the press conference after the race in which he unloaded about Suzuka 1990. But that's another story/topic....)

 

Even disliking the idea of giving Gerhard his first win for Mclaren, Senna still did it, would Seb?  Personally I'd say it's that attitude which affects why he doesn't receive the full respect 4 WDC's would suggest he should have.  As with Schumacher's record it's the way you do things that make people rate you.  Fangio, Moss and Clark will for many always be seen as better drivers as they had the respect of their peers as the best of their time, regardless of the number of championships.

[mtojay]

Even disliking the idea of giving Gerhard his first win for Mclaren, Senna still did it, would Seb?  Personally I'd say it's that attitude which affects why he doesn't receive the full respect 4 WDC's would suggest he should have.  As with Schumacher's record it's the way you do things that make people rate you.  Fangio, Moss and Clark will for many always be seen as better drivers as they had the respect of their peers as the best of their time, regardless of the number of championships.

 

 

sebastian wasnt asked to hand the victory over to mark. so how can you say its that attitude when you dont even know how he would have handled it. the circumstances where totally different, sebastian was going for the 9th win in his winning streak which is an alltime record, everybody in the team wnated him get that. mark already has a couple of wins for redbull (bergers gifted win by senna was his first for mclaren at that time) 

 

and lets be honest here, if sebastian would have gifted the win to mark, people would generate that into a new argument to hate sebastian :-) its always like that. we would read stuff like "what a poor attempt to let people forget malaysia"... blablabla

 

its not worthy to discuss that topic overall. people who want to hate sebastian will do anyway. in my opinion he didnt consider handing mark the win. it would have been a huge joke if he had done. he is the faster driver, he drives his own career. he is smashing records and the opportunity to win 9 races consecutive might never come again.

 

and all you people who say he does not get the respect 4wdcs winner should have. wait a few years. like it or not, he will go down in history books as an alltime great. he will get the respect he deservers, if not now than later.

[st99]

The "gearbox failure" in Brazil 2011 was already a gift.

 

Neither Webber wanted it or Vettel wanted to give it, Webber would have wanted to beat him on track not this.

[DampMongoose]

sebastian wasnt asked to hand the victory over to mark. so how can you say its that attitude when you dont even know how he would have handled it. the circumstances where totally different, sebastian was going for the 9th win in his winning streak which is an alltime record, everybody in the team wnated him get that. mark already has a couple of wins for redbull (bergers gifted win by senna was his first for mclaren at that time) 

 

and lets be honest here, if sebastian would have gifted the win to mark, people would generate that into a new argument to hate sebastian :-) its always like that. we would read stuff like "what a poor attempt to let people forget malaysia"... blablabla

 

its not worthy to discuss that topic overall. people who want to hate sebastian will do anyway. in my opinion he didnt consider handing mark the win. it would have been a huge joke if he had done. he is the faster driver, he drives his own career. he is smashing records and the opportunity to win 9 races consecutive might never come again.

 

and all you people who say he does not get the respect 4wdcs winner should have. wait a few years. like it or not, he will go down in history books as an alltime great. he will get the respect he deservers, if not now than later.

 

Schumacher doesn't top many of the Greatest driver polls (personally I think they're pointless) even though he's the most successful, and although opinions mellow in time, Vettel has caused plenty of dislike amongst F1 viewers, which has had a negative effect on how his achievements to date are valued.

[mtojay]

Schumacher doesn't top many of the Greatest driver polls (personally I think they're pointless) even though he's the most successful, and although opinions mellow in time, Vettel has caused plenty of dislike amongst F1 viewers, which has had a negative effect on how his achievements to date are valued.

 

 

but schumacher is still seen as an absolute alltime great. maybe he doesnt top all the greatest driver polls. but he is up there with the greatest of alltime. rightfully so. and again, if you like it or not, sebastian will get his respect and praise more than enough once he retires and the years after that. people cant put it in right perspective as long as there is this guy dominating their favourite drivers. but they will once they reflect what sebastian has achieved and how he did it.

[tifosiMac]

Any driver who has won a World Championship will be remembered as a great in some form. Some are just more appreciated than others regardless of how many Championships they have won.

[dau]

Why anyone would think Webber would even want a 'gift' like that is beyond me. They are all racers. They don't want to win to enjoy the view from the top step of the podium, they want to win to show they've been doing a better job than the other drivers. A gifted win means nothing. It's humiliating even, in the sense that it is some sort of consolation prize in the end. Oh, poor guy, you tried but failed again, please don't cry, here, have some candy. It must be insulting to a racer like Mark Webber to suggest he would even be remotely happy with that.

 

But in the end, this isn't really about Mark Webber winning, isn't it?

[mtojay]

Why anyone would think Webber would even want a 'gift' like that is beyond me. They are all racers. They don't want to win to enjoy the view from the top step of the podium, they want to win to show they've been doing a better job than the other drivers. A gifted win means nothing. It's humiliating even, in the sense that it is some sort of consolation prize in the end. Oh, poor guy, you tried but failed again, please don't cry, here, have some candy. It must be insulting to a racer like Mark Webber to suggest he would even be remotely happy with that.

 

But in the end, this isn't really about Mark Webber winning, isn't it?

 

 

thats what i thought to. webber would hate it. 

dampmongoose tells you exactly about what it is.

 

 

Even disliking the idea of giving Gerhard his first win for Mclaren, Senna still did it, would Seb?  Personally I'd say it's that attitude which affects why he doesn't receive the full respect 4 WDC's would suggest he should have.

 

its about sebastians attitude again :-) as always. even though in this case he uses an example where we dont even know if he would or would have not done it because sebastian simply wasnt asked to do it. but user dampmongoose concludes that it is "this" (what he doesnt even know) attitude that he doesnt receive the respect :-)

[sergeym]

If they were fighting for position it would make some sense, but not like this - Webber was never really close to Vettel. .Gifting win may have actually insulted Webber, by indicating he can't beat Vettel without his help. 

[DampMongoose]

It's hypothetical obviously because the team would never have asked Seb to let Mark through when the consecutive wins record was still on.  However, based on his past actions I have doubts that Seb would have done it but as you rightly say we'll never know the answer.  It surprised me that Senna did it with Berger knowing his single minded approach, even at the teams request.  I remember shouting at the TV when it happened despite not being a Senna fan.  But I would agree that Mark would not want charity particularly from his team mate.  Intersting to note that when they were on the podium that while Seb tried to give a little send off to Mark, that Mark spent the whole time talking to Fernando and not listening to a word Vettel said...

[sv401]

Button and Raikkonen are not hated and I don't remember Schumacher getting as much negativity directed his way when he was racking up the Championships.

 

Button and Raikkonen won only once, and for most of their careers were seen as "underdog" drivers not in the best car.

 

Schumacher actually received plenty of hate when he was still winning a decade ago (remember the likes of Frans, or British fans cheering for the accident in which he broke his leg in 1999 ?), but people mostly remember the good things after a long time - especially after his second career as an underdog - and he also had many fans to offset the hate, being employed by a popular team with the longest history in F1.

 

For Vettel, there are multiple factors that contribute to the unpopularity, for example:

- bad career timing: he appeared on the F1 scene when there were already several established top drivers - like Alonso, Hamilton, and Raikkonen - that locked out most of the available fan base, and there was a lack of "market demand" for yet another championship winner. Note how many Vettel fans are also fans of Raikkonen, who was not racing in F1 in 2010-2011. In 2010, most people wanted to see a "classic" Hamilton-Alonso battle for the title, and not some unknown taking it

- jealousy: too much success too early and allegedly too easily, without earning enough "underdog hero" points (the only exception is being runner-up in 2009, which is also the last year before the hate began)

- being employed by an unpopular "fizzle drink company" team with no history in F1, that also achieved too much success too fast

- anti-hero: winning against more popular drivers who are seen as underdogs fighting against the odds, and also having a popular and charismatic team-mate in an underdog role

Edited by sv401, 27 November 2013 - 12:00.

[sv401]

If they were fighting for position it would make some sense, but not like this - Webber was never really close to Vettel. .Gifting win may have actually insulted Webber, by indicating he can't beat Vettel without his help. 

 

If the team wanted to gift a win to Webber, it would probably have been made to look like some sort of mechanical problem (KERS, gearbox, slow puncture, or whatever) for Vettel. That way, there would have been no bad publicity for anyone, except maybe Red Bull quality control.

[skc]

Would have been a pretty pathetic end to Webbers career if that had happened.

[sv401]

So simple question, why did vettel slow down to the point many cars unlapped themselves?

 

Simple answer: he was on old tyres, while the lapped cars had just pitted for fresh ones. That does make a significant difference with Pirellis. His race engineer was probably very nervous as well about all sorts of potential problems, as usual, so he was likely constantly told on the radio to drive as slow as possible while still bringing the car home in P1. Trying to make the tyres last as long as possible in case it avoids an extra pit stop in changing weather, as mentioned already by someone else, also makes sense.

[tifosiMac]

Schumacher actually received plenty of hate when he was still winning a decade ago (remember the likes of Frans, or British fans cheering for the accident in which he broke his leg in 1999?

I remember the cheering initially, but once it became apparent the accident was quite serious, the fans were very concerned around the Silverstone circuit that day. I always feel I have to correct people when I see it being used as a negative because it wasn't as severe as its often made out. When the sheets went up and we could see it was serious the crowd applauded when they extracted Schumacher from the car and we could see he wasn't dead. The crowd cheered when Hamilton crashed in Monza in '09 but had he suffered nasty injuries, I don't think the fans would be taking any delight in it whatsoever. Its just a panto style approach with no real mallice intended IMO.

 

I agree with much of the rest of what you say though. Vettel carries alot of negativity because he dominated at a time when others were expected to be fighting for championships. The same happened in 2007 when Hamilton did so well. He was disliked for a couple of years after that with quite a lot of determination. I think fans mellow though, but as I said I think its silly things that make drivers disliked.

 

[GhostR]

The "gearbox failure" in Brazil 2011 was already a gift.

 

Neither Webber wanted it or Vettel wanted to give it, Webber would have wanted to beat him on track not this.

 

Given everything that's transpired in the last two years, I have no doubt that the gearbox failure was genuine. Seb's too self-centred and records-driven to give anything up for Mark. It's clear to see in the relationship between Mark and Seb ever since the first public rift in 2010 that neither was ever going to give the other a favour.

 

I thought Mark's interview on the BBC was quite telling. I very much doubt Mark would have accepted a gifted win. When talking about Malaysia this year, Mark made it clear what he thinks of Seb's behaviour during, immediately after, and weeks after that race. He didn't put everything behind it, but still threw the punch - that the way Seb changed his story in the week's after the race rankled and stank.

 

I actually wonder how much of the rivalry we've witnessed through the last four years actually goes back to a certain wet GP in Japan before Seb made the move into an RBR cockpit. On Mark's side, his (at the time) best chance to get his first win was yanked away from him by Seb. And on Seb's side, the comments Mark made after that race made it pretty clear what Mark's thoughts about him were.

[Gorma]

I remember the cheering initially, but once it became apparent the accident was quite serious, the fans were very concerned around the Silverstone circuit that day. I always feel I have to correct people when I see it being used as a negative because it wasn't as severe as its often made out. When the sheets went up and we could see it was serious the crowd applauded when they extracted Schumacher from the car and we could see he wasn't dead. The crowd cheered when Hamilton crashed in Monza in '09 but had he suffered nasty injuries, I don't think the fans would be taking any delight in it whatsoever. Its just a panto style approach with no real mallice intended IMO.

I remember Mika Häkkinen retiring in Italy and crying in the forrest and "fans" were throwing water bottles at him...

[TheUltimateWorrier]

I remember Mika Häkkinen retiring in Italy and crying in the forrest and "fans" were throwing water bottles at him...

 

. . . who were making sure he was properly hydrated after such a grueling race   .  At least they were throwing bottles of warm lemonade at him, or were they   ?

[tifosiMac]

I remember Mika Häkkinen retiring in Italy and crying in the forrest and "fans" were throwing water bottles at him...

Oh dear, thats not nice.

I only commented really because I witnessed 1999 Silverstone and feel the 'cheers comments' are taken out of context when the outcome is not discussed. It often makes the fans out to be worse than they actually were.

[st99]

Given everything that's transpired in the last two years, I have no doubt that the gearbox failure was genuine. Seb's too self-centred and records-driven to give anything up for Mark. It's clear to see in the relationship between Mark and Seb ever since the first public rift in 2010 that neither was ever going to give the other a favour.

 

I thought Mark's interview on the BBC was quite telling. I very much doubt Mark would have accepted a gifted win. When talking about Malaysia this year, Mark made it clear what he thinks of Seb's behaviour during, immediately after, and weeks after that race. He didn't put everything behind it, but still threw the punch - that the way Seb changed his story in the week's after the race rankled and stank.

 

I actually wonder how much of the rivalry we've witnessed through the last four years actually goes back to a certain wet GP in Japan before Seb made the move into an RBR cockpit. On Mark's side, his (at the time) best chance to get his first win was yanked away from him by Seb. And on Seb's side, the comments Mark made after that race made it pretty clear what Mark's thoughts about him were.

 

In 2011 the relationship wasn't as strained as it was this year and I don't think it was Vettel's idea back then to "give" Mark a win, it was the team's idea and he went with it because back then there were no records at stage.

 

While Mark says that Malaysia wasn't the best moments in Vettel's career, he also adds that he doesn't think that his "lows" are as bad as Schumacher for example.

 

I always thought that their relationship got worse because of Helmut Marko's influence on the team and his protection of SV all the time. 

Mark saw that as a sign of "preferential treatment" and since then the relationship went downhill. Not only him but a lot of people blame SV for the "worsening" in Mark's relationship with RB. That's why I think (hope) that the relationship between Vettel and Ricciardo won't be like this, because he's also a RB boy, just like Vettel.

[OvDrone]

I always thought that their relationship got worse because of Helmut Marko's influence on the team and his protection of SV all the time. 

Mark saw that as a sign of "preferential treatment" and since then the relationship went downhill. Not only him but a lot of people blame SV for the "worsening" in Mark's relationship with RB. That's why I think (hope) that the relationship between Vettel and Ricciardo won't be like this, because he's also a RB boy, just like Vettel.

 

This. I always thought that Webber had a hateful grudge against certain elements of the team (Marko, Horner, etc.) than the competitive grudge he holds against Vettel. Yes, Vettel always irked him but through him he sees the same blokes who didn't show their support when he needed it the most, in the dying stages of 2010. You can't win a championship without support from the main elements of the team.

[GreenMachine]

I don't understand how so many people can lack the understanding of basic strategy.  Especially if they've been watching more than a few years.  I guess not everyone watches with live timing.. but it's not a good sign if even the diehards who post on forums can't understand the basic fundamental of a sport.

 

And I don't just mean in this topic, but in general.  It's not rocket science.  Rocket science is designing these cars in the first place.  If you don't watch the race with live timing.. I suggest trying to get a laptop beside you while watching.. you might be surprised suddenly about how less "boring" F1 is.

 

 

QFT, especially regarding the live timing.

[ClubmanGT]

QFT, especially regarding the live timing.

 

And for those of us who can't actually watch races live...?

 

Heaven forbid we ask for a sport where you don't need all sorts off-track aids to actually find something to keep you from being bored out of your mind. 

[DILLIGAF]

Vettel wouldn't do it, and I think Webber would have thought less of himself for taking it.  So no.

+1

[Cesc]

I definetely don't think so.

[apoka]

I actually wonder how much of the rivalry we've witnessed through the last four years actually goes back to a certain wet GP in Japan before Seb made the move into an RBR cockpit. On Mark's side, his (at the time) best chance to get his first win was yanked away from him by Seb. And on Seb's side, the comments Mark made after that race made it pretty clear what Mark's thoughts about him were.

 

Q: Your relationship with Sebastian was tense. Red Bull motorsport consultant Dr Helmut Marko believes that this started in 2008 in Fuji, where you had eaten fish the evening before, you were throwing up in the race, you wanted to stop but overcame the nausea, you were in second place with a clear chance of winning - and then Toro Rosso youngster Sebastian hit you from behind. Is he right?
MW: He’s wrong. It was a good fight with Lewis (Hamilton) and Seb. Actually it wasn’t Lewis’ best time in that safety-car phase back then. There was no serious issue with Seb.

 

http://www.formula1....3/11/15276.html

[GhostR]

In 2011 the relationship wasn't as strained as it was this year and I don't think it was Vettel's idea back then to "give" Mark a win, it was the team's idea and he went with it because back then there were no records at stage.

 

Relationship wasn't strained at Malaysia this year either, and yet Seb still went against a direct team order. The Brazil gearbox issue wasn't the first they had in 2011. And, as much as you say he wasn't chasing a record ... well yes, he was, and still is. Why do you think the team constantly have to tell him to not go after fastest lap at the end of the race, but he ignores them?  Seb himself has admitted it in the past - one of the things that motivates him to race is breaking the records. One of the big records he'll want to break is Schumacher's all time wins total. I have no doubt he wants to be the first driver to chalk up 100.

[Miggeex]

If Vettel had done that, I guess Webber would've still gone to P2 step on the podium and in the press-conference. No one with any real desire to win won't give away a victory unless that's what the team wants. Such thing as "enough wins" doesn't exist. And Webber wouldn't want to "win" if he wouldn't be the real winner. Paradox? 

[fastlegs]

There is no way Vettel would ever do such a thing. It's not in his DNA.

 

Remember this is the guy who snatched a sure victory away from Webber at the Malaysian Grand Prix.

Edited by fastlegs, 28 November 2013 - 16:27.

[dau]

There is no way Vettel would ever do such a thing. It's not in his DNA.

 

Remember this is the guy who snatched a sure victory away from Webber at the Malaysian Grand Prix.

Sebastian Vettel: The only driver who makes 'snatching away a sure victory' a bad thing.

[DampMongoose]

Sebastian Vettel: The only driver who makes 'snatching away a sure victory' a bad thing.

 

Seb's starting small, in many peoples minds Piquet snatching a title from Reutemann was a bad thing too!

[Henri Greuter]

For whatever reason my ( quote button ) refuses to cooperate and copying parts from previous messages in the reply doesn't work either hence why this reply looks silly and pityful.

 

@Dampmongoose regarding Piquet snatching the tilte away from Reutemann:

 

I don't think that is a very decent comparison with the Multi 21 deal. That involved teammates who were given orders that the team management at that moment felt to be the most sitable for whatever reasons. Piquet and Reuteman were not even in the same team!

Only one thing between Webber and Vettel does come close to what happened between Piquet and Reutemann: Vettel taking the title in the final race of the year (like with Reutt and Piq) in an event that could have brought te title to Webber as well.

 

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 28 November 2013 - 18:24.

[hupholland]

Although people like to trash Webber, many forget that it was Webber's wins and points he took from Alonso in 2010 and 2012 the key that granted Vettel his championships.

For 2012 that's true, not for 2010. If you skip both Massa and Webber's results for 2010 Vettel still would have been champion.

Edited by hupholland, 28 November 2013 - 21:26.

[DampMongoose]

For whatever reason my ( quote button ) refuses to cooperate and copying parts from previous messages in the reply doesn't work either hence why this reply looks silly and pityful.

@Dampmongoose regarding Piquet snatching the tilte away from Reutemann:

I don't think that is a very decent comparison with the Multi 21 deal. That involved teammates who were given orders that the team management at that moment felt to be the most sitable for whatever reasons. Piquet and Reuteman were not even in the same team!
Only one thing between Webber and Vettel does come close to what happened between Piquet and Reutemann: Vettel taking the title in the final race of the year (like with Reutt and Piq) in an event that could have brought te title to Webber as well.


Henri

You didn't get it and missed my point further than a Vettel pole lap apex... Never mind

[Henri Greuter]

 

You didn't get it and missed my point further than a Vettel pole lap apex... Never mind

Sorry for missing it. For all security, I had no intention to offence you with my comment. I replied as on how I understood yor initial message, which I seem to have misunderstood. In case you took my answer as an offence, I'm sorry for that and my hereby my apologies for that.

Henri

[paulrobs]

With all due respect, that is a load of crap. They have been on relatively good terms lately. Seb also had many nice things to say about mark afterwards and visa versa. 

 

Having said that, gifting a win is silly.

Deep down the fans wouldn't want it.

Mark wouldn't want it.

Seb wouldn't want it.

Nothing to gain for anyone in that scenario.

 

Seb showed mark respect by driving at 100% - like any other race. And mark wouldn't want it any other way.

 

With all due respect this is a load of crap.

 

Ho do you know they have been on good terms lately? I didn't see any evidence of this, quite the opposite in fact - "PR stunt", lack of warm words between them, Vettel only grudgingly admitting his respect for Webber. I just didn't see that. Maybe you work for RBR and you see them on good terms. Or maybe it's just your opinion, as was mine.

 

I didn't say gifting a wn was the right thing or the wrong thing. I just replied to the OP's question.

 

Which fans wouldn't want it? Do you speak for all fans? Who are the fans you talk about? I think there are plenty who would want it and plkenty who wouldn't because at the end of the day we're all people and we have opinions based on what we see, what we hear and what we'd like, amongst many other reasons.

 

How do you know Mark wouldn't want it? He finished his final season without a win and was robbed of a win earlier in the season. I could see situation where he'd be happy with a win if it was handled in the right way - righting a prvious wrong, etc. I'm not saying I waqnted this to heppen. I'm just suggesting there may be other opinions other than your own.

 

I'm pretty sure Seb wouldn't want it, that's for sure. Again, I'm not saying this is right or wrong but here is an example of us sharing the same opinion.

 

I'm pretty sure that anyone who wanted Vettel to cede the win to Webber would have gained by this situation. Pretty sure you wouldn't have but this doesn't mean others won't gain.

 

Seb did not drive at 100%. No-one drives at 100% any more in a race apart from maybe the odd lap at the start or during the race when trying an undercut or overcut or trying to eke out a gap to make a strategy work.

 

No, wait, I'm wrong. I just looked up the dictionary definition of crap and it says "anything that Ibennie doesn't agree with". My arse.....

[sv401]

How do you know Mark wouldn't want it? He finished his final season without a win and was robbed of a win earlier in the season.

 

Well, maybe he would have wanted it, we do not know. At least in 2011 at the same track he was fine with a win under somewhat questionable circumstances, and in 2010 even demanded a gifted win while Vettel was still a title contender. Although one thing I know with relative certainty is that a lot of people would have a very low opinion of Vettel had he demanded a gifted win with the roles reversed for the entire season.

 

Webber was not exactly "robbed" of a win in Malaysia, after all, he had more than two laps to defend his position and settle in the lead, which should be enough time against a rival who is allegedly not fast enough to overtake on merit. On the other hand, if the team order was actually necessary for him to be able to win, then it would rather have been a "gift" in case it is obeyed. Again, swap the roles, and see how the opinions would change.

[wepmob2000]

Sebastian Vettel: The only driver who makes 'snatching away a sure victory' a bad thing.

 

I really don't understand the fuss about Malaysia 2013, and detect more than a hint of hypocrisy. I am really no fan of Seb, but he did what he's supposed to and won a race. When Barrichello obeyed team orders he was called a 'lapdog', and if the positions had been reversed and Webber snatched the win, I don't think there would be the controversy (in fact I believe Webber would have been lauded as a hero).

 

Now I've said that, I can return to berating Seb when the opportunity arises :-D