299 replies to this topic

[PoleMan]

http://www.motorspor...lonso-question/

 

Mixed voting and some non-answers, but Alonso won't be feeling too bad about what his peers think of him. 

Edited by SophieB, 27 November 2013 - 14:17.

[sennafan24]

I just posted this in the top 10 drivers thread, so I will copy my thoughts over to here. It probably deserves its own thread anyway.

 

A quick content analysis has Alonso winning 6-2 in quantity, with a whole lot of drivers sitting on the fence. Given that a lot of the clear votes are made by drivers look out for there best interests (Bianchi, JEV and Riccardo) the sample is quite small.

 

Heikki is the most interesting saying simply "Alonso" without even thinking. most already know Lewis's opinion. Perez, Pastor and Gut go for Alonso, but the author suggests that might be influenced by those drivers speaking the same language as Alonso. It seems Heikki is the most interesting as there is no known influence present to sway his vote. Its a shame they did not ask him to expand as to why he thinks Alonso is better.

 

It seems even the drivers do not really know in general, Hulk says its impossible to quantify, and he might be right. After 2013, I must say I am surprised that a 6-2 scoreline is present for Alonso, even if it is full of distortion.

Edited by sennafan24, 27 November 2013 - 14:33.

[tifosiMac]

Although some of the opinions here are largely political based on friendships, nationality and contractual obligations, its still telling to see so many of the drivers picking Alonso. I agree with it I have to say, but its nice to see what the drivers as a collective think too.

[Gilles4Ever]

 

I just posted this in the top 10 drivers thread, so I will copy my thoughts over to here. It probably deserves its own thread anyway.

 

A quick content analysis has Alonso winning 6-2 in quantity, with a whole lot of drivers sitting on the fence. Given that a lot of the clear votes are made by drivers look out for there best interests (Bianchi, JEV and Riccardo) the sample is quite small.

 

Heikki is the most interesting saying simply "Alonso" without even thinking. most already know Lewis's opinion. Perez, Pastor and Gut go for Alonso, but the author suggests that might be influenced by speaking the same language as Alonso. It seems Heikki is the most interesting as there is no known influence present to sway his vote. Its a shame they did not ask him to expand as to why he thinks Alonso is better.

 

It seems even the drivers do not really know in general, Hulk says its impossible to quantify, and he might be right. After 2013, I must say I am surprised that a 6-2 scoreline is present for Alonso, even if it is full of distortion.

 

Every driver that raced in Brazil gave his opinion

[PoleMan]

 

I just posted this in the top 10 drivers thread, so I will copy my thoughts over to here. It probably deserves its own thread anyway.

 

A quick content analysis has Alonso winning 6-2 in quantity, with a whole lot of drivers sitting on the fence. Given that a lot of the clear votes are made by drivers look out for there best interests (Bianchi, JEV and Riccardo) the sample is quite small.

 

Heikki is the most interesting saying simply "Alonso" without even thinking. most already know Lewis's opinion. Perez, Pastor and Gut go for Alonso, but the author suggests that might be influenced by speaking the same language as Alonso. It seems Heikki is the most interesting as there is no known influence present to sway his vote. Its a shame they did not ask him to expand as to why he thinks Alonso is better.

 

It seems even the drivers do not really know in general, Hulk says its impossible to quantify, and he might be right. After 2013, I must say I am surprised that a 6-2 scoreline is present for Alonso, even if it is full of distortion.

 

I agree 100% with your post.   Probably the response that made me chuckle the most was Button's, since his TP has already loudly and repeatedly stated Alonso is the driver McLaren and Honda want for 2015. 

Edited by PoleMan, 27 November 2013 - 14:18.

[sennafan24]

Every driver that raced in Brazil gave his opinion

Yeah, but I mean in terms of definitive votes.

 

Only 8 drivers did not sit on the fence out of 22, so from that we can only really gather limited information, and that in general the drivers struggle to know themselves. Even the ones that did vote were distorted for reasons mentioned, if every driver gave a response like Perez and Heikki did, we would have a fairer reflection of which driver the field rate more.

[Zava]

 

I just posted this in the top 10 drivers thread, so I will copy my thoughts over to here. It probably deserves its own thread anyway.

 

A quick content analysis has Alonso winning 6-2 in quantity, with a whole lot of drivers sitting on the fence. Given that a lot of the clear votes are made by drivers look out for there best interests (Bianchi, JEV and Riccardo) the sample is quite small.

 

Heikki is the most interesting saying simply "Alonso" without even thinking. most already know Lewis's opinion. Perez, Pastor and Gut go for Alonso, but the author suggests that might be influenced by speaking the same language as Alonso. It seems Heikki is the most interesting as there is no known influence present to sway his vote. Its a shame they did not ask him to expand as to why he thinks Alonso is better.

 

It seems even the drivers do not really know in general, Hulk says its impossible to quantify, and he might be right. After 2013, I must say I am surprised that a 6-2 scoreline is present for Alonso, even if it is full of distortion.

 

not only Perez, Maldonado and Gutierrez speak spanish, but I guess the spanish press (namely AS, the OP of the article) does as well. 

also, funny to see the RB/ferrari academy drivers answers, see the contrast between Vergne/Ricciardo and Bianchi 

 

p.s.: inb4 this year's great argument, "team principal ratings mean nothing, see what the drivers said"

Edited by Zava, 27 November 2013 - 14:26.

[mtojay]

alonso has more experience. he has driven more seasons. he has matured over these years.

 

he is an exceptional driver, we all know that. 

as a vettel fan, at this point due to his experience i would stick to alonso.

 

but i think it would be fair to rate the 26 year old sebastian to the 26 year old fernando and then i go with sebastian. lets wait a few years and lets look how you can compare it when vettel is as old as alonso now (and pobably driving for ferrari himself) 

[SonJR]

 

I just posted this in the top 10 drivers thread, so I will copy my thoughts over to here. It probably deserves its own thread anyway.

 

A quick content analysis has Alonso winning 6-2 in quantity, with a whole lot of drivers sitting on the fence. Given that a lot of the clear votes are made by drivers look out for there best interests (Bianchi, JEV and Riccardo) the sample is quite small.

 

Heikki is the most interesting saying simply "Alonso" without even thinking. most already know Lewis's opinion. Perez, Pastor and Gut go for Alonso, but the author suggests that might be influenced by speaking the same language as Alonso. It seems Heikki is the most interesting as there is no known influence present to sway his vote. Its a shame they did not ask him to expand as to why he thinks Alonso is better.

 

It seems even the drivers do not really know in general, Hulk says its impossible to quantify, and he might be right. After 2013, I must say I am surprised that a 6-2 scoreline is present for Alonso, even if it is full of distortion.

 

Good point, but Heikki might be somewhat 'biased' due to having worked with Alonso at Renault in 2005 & 2006, where Heikki was a test driver. Then again, you could argue that he might just have been mightily impressed back then and hasn't seen Vettel work from up close. What's interesting about Heikki though, is he can compare Alonso compared to Hamilton, who he was team mates with at McLaren.

Edited by SonJR, 27 November 2013 - 14:33.

[sennafan24]

not only Perez, Maldonado and Gutierrez speak spanish, but I guess the spanish press (namely AS, the OP of the article) does as well. 

[kosmos]

This is the original article:

 

http://motor.as.com/...666_537382.html

 

 

 

The interesting thing for me is that no driver said "Vettel", a lot of support for Alonso and people that don't want to give his vote in public. Well, yes 2 drivers voted for Vettel, the TR drivers, but it will be not very smart for them to vote against him.

[Gilles4Ever]

Yeah, but I mean in terms of definitive votes.

 

Only 8 drivers did not sit on the fence out of 22, so from that we can only really gather limited information, and that in general the drivers struggle to know themselves. Even the ones that did vote were distorted for reasons mentioned, if every driver gave a response like Perez and Heikki did, we would have a fairer reflection of which driver the field rate more.

I am surprised that as many as 8 gave definitive answers and kudos to them turning their back on PC answers and giving a straight answer. I would say it's pretty telling that the only two who voted for Seb were the STR drivers.

 

IMO the nationality card would only count if the German drivers had picked Seb, the Spanish speaking drivers could also have sat on the fence.

[Arn]

The only thing we can say about those answers, is that some drivers know the difference between knowing and believing, and some don't, and that some are opinionated.

[ElDictatore]

Were they asked to name the better of only these two or the best of the whole grid? If it's the second case I would be surprised why no one said "Me. I'm the best."

[tifosiMac]

The only thing we can say about those answers, is that some drivers know the difference between knowing and believing, and some don't, and that some are opinionated.

A bit like any opinion forum then really

 

Its nice to see the actual drivers who race against these two guys answer a question we often ask amongst ourselves though I have to say. The outcome will always be greeted with either contempt or favour depending on an individuals opinion or stance. Vettel's fans will dismiss it and Alonso's will savour ir and those of us who are not fans or either will relate to it or perhaps not? They are just opinions, but interesting nonetheless

[tifosiMac]

Were they asked to name the better of only these two or the best of the whole grid? If it's the second case I would be surprised why no one said "Me. I'm the best."

'Me' as in the driver 'me' or 'me' as in you! If the latter, step forward and reveal thy self driver.

[sennafan24]

 

 

IMO the nationality card would only count if the German drivers had picked Seb, the Spanish speaking drivers could also have sat on the fence.

I was about to mention this. Rosberg and Hulk were both on the fence.

 

I would grant the drivers anonymity, which the team principals poll I believe does. That way we could get more than 8.

[mtojay]

A bit like any opinion forum then really

 

Its nice to see the actual drivers who race against these two guys answer a question we often ask amongst ourselves though I have to say. The outcome will always be greeted with either contempt or favour depending on an individuals opinion or stance. Vettel's fans will dismiss it and Alonso's will savour ir and those of us who are not fans or either will relate to it or perhaps not? They are just opinions, but interesting nonetheless

 

nope i wont dismiss it.

 

as i said before, i think alonso is the "better" f1 driver due to his experience and due to his 2012 season which mighty impressed me. 

 

but its not fair to rate them both  when alonso had way more years in this sport and is this much more experienced.

 

as said before, rate the 26 year old alonso with the 26 year old sebastian and it is fair.

[sennafan24]

 

as said before, rate the 26 year old alonso with the 26 year old sebastian and it is fair.

I would actually find that hard to quantify as well to be honest.

 

I agree it would seem Vettel has more time to grow as a driver, but there is the variable of digression to consider, also who knows maybe Seb peaked early, and maybe, just maybe, Alonso will peak again later on. Plus comparing ages can be unreflective, a driver at 26 could be a relative F1 rookie look at Gvdg, whilst a Lewis or Seb at 26 is a seasoned veteran.

 

It does work in this case, but still not without faults, as Alonso at 26 had not had the high level of cars that Seb has had at 26. Seb, like Lewis was given a top level car very early (he did earn to be fair) Alonso was at Minardi and had 2 more additional years at Renualt before it became a top car.

[Rinehart]

IMO considering that Vettel has won the last 4 championships and Alonso has won none for 7 years, the fact Alonso is perceived as better than Vettel overall by the drivers (6-2) and at least as good by the majority, is a pretty remarkable insight I think. I don't see that a few nationalistic/tactical votes changes anything. Alonso is rated higher by the DRIVERS, despite Vettel's success. Just goes to show, its not all about what you win, its also how you win. 

[ElDictatore]

'Me' as in the driver 'me' or 'me' as in you! If the latter, step forward and reveal thy self driver.

 

'Me' as in the driver 'me'.   I'm just a armchair expert, maybe the best there ever was. But hey, one can dream, right? 

[sennafan24]

Just goes to show, its not all about what you win, its also how you win. 

 

I am still a swing voter with Seb vs Alonso, at the moment I say Alonso, but another year, I expect to say Seb.

 

This does probably confirm that the drivers must really rate the RB as a car, if Alonso is even in the debate.

[HoldenRT]

Overall, I'd pick Alonso.  In terms of any regulations, any tyre brand, any engine type, any car.  In terms of all aspects of being a driver.

 

However.. with these Pirelli's in the Redbull team, I think Seb would beat him easily.  If it were in Ferrari, I think Alonso would win or it would be very close.

 

But Alonso was even getting out qualified by Massa recently.. and Seb knows how to drive the wheels off of these tyres.  His qualifying is near perfect everytime, and a part of that is the car but a part of that is his talent.  And for the race.. well, if Seb is starting infront.. he has to have a poor start or make a mistake for Alonso to get infront.  It's been years since Seb would have an off day with pace or make mistakes with overtaking.  He seems to have mastered these qualifying tyres and has no weak circuits.

 

Overall, Alonso.  Because he's just so inventive and clever and consistant over all the different regs and tyre companies.  He's rock solid and always strong in every race.  Very strategic and clever and cool under pressure.  But Seb's not too bad either.  It's pretty much impossible to say anything for sure.. but I still think people underestimate Seb's pace.  Maybe one day there will be certain answers.  If Alonso would beat Seb, it wouldn't be because of pace.  It'd be because of thinking outside of the box or being consistant.

[Buttoneer]

I think most ofthe drivers will look at the time difference and attribute it to the car and agree that in his place they could have done what Seb did themselves, but that Alonso's feat this year is far more impressive.  As a point of view, I think it's a pretty good one but it's tough on Seb.  Four WDC's in a row is not easy. If it was, others would have done it.  If it was all about the car, Webber would have been there right behind every time.

[TheUltimateWorrier]

There's a reason why so many of the drivers are sitting on the fence about this 'Alonso vs Vettel question', because the real answer is Hamilton  .

[Sabre1977]

 

Heikki is the most interesting saying simply "Alonso" without even thinking. most already know Lewis's opinion. Perez, Pastor and Gut go for Alonso, but the author suggests that might be influenced by those drivers speaking the same language as Alonso. It seems Heikki is the most interesting as there is no known influence present to sway his vote. Its a shame they did not ask him to expand as to why he thinks Alonso is better.

 

 

AFAIK, Alonso has a very good relationship with Heikki since  Kovalainen was test driver at Renault. I remeber a pre-season interview with Alonso in 2007 in Valencia (McLaren MP4/22 Launch) regarding Heikki as the favourite to be rookie of the Year, with Lewis at his side       .

Edited by Sabre1977, 27 November 2013 - 15:34.

[HoldenRT]

Alonso's qualifying pace hasn't impressed me in the last few seasons, to be considered best driver in F1.  However, one redeeming thing for him is.. he seems to set his car up for the race instead of qualifying.  And if he had more pace in hand, he could go for one lap pace more.. and still have a strong race car (but you could say that for any driver).  Similar to Kimi this season, some of his qualifying hasn't been great.. but his approach seems to work because he always makes up those positions in the race.

[apoka]

I am surprised that as many as 8 gave definitive answers and kudos to them turning their back on PC answers and giving a straight answer. I would say it's pretty telling that the only two who voted for Seb were the STR drivers.

 

IMO the nationality card would only count if the German drivers had picked Seb, the Spanish speaking drivers could also have sat on the fence.

 

I'm not so sure. The German press and the people themselves are quite critical even with their "heros". It's a Spanish article and we do not even know the question asked. Even Webber sometimes says positive things about Vettel on German TV. 

 

Add to this, that many drivers might have agendas (TR drivers want to go to RB, Bianchi, Perez, Gutierrez to Ferrari, Kovalainen was at Renault, Hamilton was Alonsos team mate) - some of the agendas may not be completely obvious to us.

 

Even if it is a completely unbiased article, it's not a shame to be compared to Alonso, although I rate Vettel higher, especially after this year. Nevertheless, Alonso has more experience and earned some reputation in the paddock.

[sennafan24]

There's a reason why so many of the drivers are sitting on the fence about this 'Alonso vs Vettel question', because the real answer is Hamilton  .

[sopa]

I can understand, why drivers pick Alonso, because when they race together on the same piece of tarmac, they can often race against Alonso wheel-to-wheel. I think they do not rate Alonso's qualifying skills here so much, but as he often qualifies in the bottom end of top 10, they see more of his racing skills and in wheel-to-wheel they see that it is very hard to compete against Alonso in race and he would likely beat them.

 

However, Vettel is so far in front they do not see him (except when the lights go out or they get lapped). So they can't form much of an opinion about him except they get the feeling he has a car advantage to get so far ahead, which is something they would all like to enjoy.

Edited by sopa, 27 November 2013 - 15:54.

[Burtros]

Alonso is clearly the best. Ive got shot down in flames a few times for saying McLarens biggest mistake of the last 10 years was not pandering to his wishes in 2007 and then choosing Hamilton over him for 2008. I think Alonso is so good McLaren would have taken all the titles in both 07 and 08 with him on board.

 

 

I agree 100% with your post.   Probably the response that made me chuckle the most was Button's, since his TP has already loudly and repeatedly stated Alonso is the driver McLaren and Honda want for 2015. 

 

PMSL it really is funny how a TP's comments can twist and change over time.

[Jerem]

Lewis : "With the Red Bull, Alonso would win more easily than Vettel."

What's more easily? Think he'd be able take a nap during the race?

[bonjon1979a]

You can always rely on hulk to speak the truth. Really starting to like him

[Acathla]

Duh.

[SpaMaster]

I don't know how Alonso would feel better about this. Compared to the past his votes seems to be going down even if it sides with him overall.

[RealRacing]

Another one of those AS consolation-prize articles.

[ViMaMo]

I drive for opinions

[Juggles]

Picking a driver for my team from 2014 onwards would be such a hard decision because of the regulation change. We just don't know who it will suit. If 2014 was a continuation of the 2011-2013 format I would certainly pick Vettel ahead of Alonso, and that's based on what I saw in the first half of this season rather than the second. How could any driver have seriously improved on what Vettel did this season? I can't agree with Hamilton that Alonso would be even further ahead.

[ray b]

really wish there was a race of champions with equal cars

to sort this out on track like they use to do IROC or other

and shut up a bunch of useless fan boys

 

if they think 4 in a row is a fluke

they are useless fan boys

[RockyRaccoon68]

really wish there was a race of champions with equal cars

to sort this out on track like they use to do IROC or other

and shut up a bunch of useless fan boys

 

if they think 4 in a row is a fluke

they are useless fan boys

 

If you read the article you would see that none of them said 4 in a row was a fluke.  Just that they think Alonso is at least as good, a perfectly valid opinion to hold!

[bourbon]

I am surprised that as many as 8 gave definitive answers and kudos to them turning their back on PC answers and giving a straight answer. I would say it's pretty telling that the only two who voted for Seb were the STR drivers.

 

IMO the nationality card would only count if the German drivers had picked Seb, the Spanish speaking drivers could also have sat on the fence.

 

I don't think Nationality is at play - or talent and ability either.  Most of the younger drivers are in Vettel's era (age range +/-5 years).  There is no way they are going to proclaim him as better than Alonso at this stage in their careers (leaving Bianchi, JEV and Ricciardo out of it).

 

Ask any of these drivers if Seb is better than them or if he has merely lucked out by landing himself a Red Bull.  Many have already opted for the latter in previous interviews and I believe that is because they truly believe that given the same opportunity, they too would be 4 time WDCs, so Sebastian is no better than they are, (and they should believe that - even though most of them are wrong). 

 

These drivers do not compare themselves to Fernando or Kimi or Michael - they are in truth, icons from the previous era and even if they go out with a bang, their comparative driving period is long past in the eyes of someone like Gutierrez or Maldonado. 

[senna da silva]

really wish there was a race of champions with equal cars

to sort this out on track like they use to do IROC or other

and shut up a bunch of useless fan boys

 

if they think 4 in a row is a fluke

they are useless fan boys

 

I don't think anybody thinks its a fluke. What casts doubt into people's minds are examples such as Seb's pole lap in the US where he missed a number of apexes through S1 and S2 and yet was able to grab pole.

Does he, as a driver, have that much in reserve that he doesn't have to be perfect or is there a car advantage? There is no discounting Seb's talent, that is obvious but there are many whom think that Alonso has been consistently close to perfect for for a long period of time.

Personally I would say Alonso is the best all around driver right now but I would place Seb a clear second, and I say that as a Hamilton fan.

[tifosiMac]

really wish there was a race of champions with equal cars
to sort this out on track like they use to do IROC or other
and shut up a bunch of useless fan boys
 
if they think 4 in a row is a fluke
they are useless fan boys

Or a bunch of drivers who have raced against both drivers and feel they can judge the merit of both based on their personal racing experience.

We don't have to accept their collective opinions, but we should respect them considering who they are and the fact they are closer to both Alonso and Vettel on a competitive basis. At least that seems logical to me

[P0inters]

I would say the difference between them is very , very small. So small infact , that it's meaningless.

[abc]

Ah, people just answer according to who is asking. If it was german magazine, those answering Alonso would refuse to answer and many who didnt give answer to Spanish papers would readily said Vettel. Maybe even Hamilton wouldnt be that clear to get some likes among German readers.

[Gorma]

 What casts doubt into people's minds are examples such as Seb's pole lap in the US where he missed a number of apexes through S1 and S2 and yet was able to grab pole.

None of them did a perfect lap.

[SpaMaster]

I think Hamilton was being too loose-mouthed there and that is not surprising.  It is a dig at Vettel and he knows that.

 

Perez has spoken like a true idiot, just like his driving. It is clear that Alonso is the best? It is true Vettel absolutely dominated with the best car in the second half. But when the cars were more or less equal in the first half and arguably Ferrari being the best car in the first third of the season, Vettel clearly performed better than Alonso. Yet, this genius thinks Alonso is 'clearly the best', I don't know what he saw to conclude that.

[sennafan24]

 

Perez has spoken like a true idiot, just like his driving. It is clear that Alonso is the best? It is true Vettel absolutely dominated with the best car in the second half. But when the cars were more or less equal in the first half and arguably Ferrari being the best car in the first third of the season, Vettel clearly performed better than Alonso. Yet, this genius thinks Alonso is 'clearly the best', I don't know what he saw to conclude that.

Its not just based on 2013, its based in general.

 

I think most would agree Seb has been better this year.

[DS27]

F1 drivers suffer from success envy too - what a shock.

 

I'm not a Vettel fan, but he's being hard done by here.

[FullThrottleF1]

Button said in the interview 'when I am a team boss' suspiscous ;-).

Jenson Button to set up Button GP in 2015, you heard it here first!