299 replies to this topic

[fabr68]

No surprise. Besides his driving, no other driver complains so much and so hevaily and so consistently about not having the best car. While most of the grid goes with "must work harder", Alonso goes with "must work harder and continue to perform miracles and count on luck". Or he simply asks for a RB9 on his birthday weekend.

Try to guess which one will grab more attention...

And your point is?
If Alonso's opinions is what make all drivers being split on their views between himself and Vettel, I would say that is really good brain washing.

That theory destroys the notion that Alonso is weaked minded as it takes a very strong mind to manipulate others.

[Atreiu]

It's a popularity contest and it's no surprise the driver who is the most vocal about his suffering against Red Bull has won.

[fabr68]

It's a popularity contest and it's no surprise the driver who is the most vocal about his suffering against Red Bull has won.

I dont think that says much about the drivers in the grid. Those guys spend most of their careers studying each other onboard videos and reverse engineered track data.

[TheWilliamzer]

Wasn't Giedo VDG beating Vettel in F3 and Vettel is beating Nando now?? Giedo is the best.   

[bub]

So basically if the driver has the same opinion as you on who is better, they are giving an honest, well thought out opinion. If the driver has a different view to you it is because they have an agenda or have been fooled by a driver's comments.

 

Just thought I'd also add that I don't think having emotions, being outspoken and/or politicking necessarily means you are mentally weak.

Edited by bub, 29 November 2013 - 17:13.

[Lone]

Vettel has also complained when he's been beaten, not so differently to Alonso. Does anyone remember his constant whining about the magic button (kers) beeing the difference when he was beaten in 2009?

Alonso and Vettel has something in common that separates them from the rest of the grid; they hate loosing more than anything else. I believe it's their biggest strength but at the same time a weakness in some situations.

[Skinnyguy]

Vettel has also complained when he's been beaten, not so differently to Alonso. Does anyone remember his constant whining about the magic button (kers) beeing the difference when he was beaten in 2009?

Alonso and Vettel has something in common that separates them from the rest of the grid; they hate loosing more than anything else. I believe it's their biggest strength but at the same time a weakness in some situations.

 

 

EVERY driver hates losing. But it´s not true they handle defeat equally bad if that´s what you´re trying to sell.

 

Yes, Vettel has come across as spoiled after losing. And a handful of times actually! "DRS is ridiculous!" (USA 12), magic button example, "but I want to win!" Hungary 11.

 

However, I haven´t ever seen a driver turning into another and making gestures to him in a parade lap for not letting him pass. Ever. And I don´t think I´ll ever see it again. And then, as a plus, later and cooled down, in a press interview he accuse him of defending position "as if his life depended on it" when actually he barely had to move offline a couple of times in a very long fight.

 

Bottomline: They all hate losing, but they aren´t not-gracious on defeat to the same degree. Not at all.

[Kingshark]

Bottomline: They all hate losing, but they aren´t not-gracious on defeat to the same degree. Not at all.

 

You're right. Some drivers are so arrogant that they are not-gracious even in victory. 

 

"I should go to Ayrton's grave and tell him what his nephew did" - Vettel after Brazil 2012.

 

I don't think I've ever heard a driver bring up the dead relative of another driver after a collision, despite winning the WDC anyway, and I don't think I'll ever hear it again. 

 

If that is how SV acts after winning, one can only imagine how pathetic his behaviour will be when losing. 

 

Vettel has never lost a championship in the final race of the season, but I imagine more toys being thrown out of the pram than Alonso ever did if it ever happens.

 

Oh, and lastly, please give up on your desperate attempts to make Vettel into some sort of tragic hero and turn Alonso into a phantom villain. Every single one of your cheap shots at Alonso in this thread has failed miserably.

Edited by Kingshark, 29 November 2013 - 20:05.

[Gorma]

"I should go to Ayrton's grave and tell him what his uncle did"

That does not make any sense.

[Acathla]

That does not make any sense.

 

It doesn't. But what Seb said was poor, not funny and totally uncalled for. 

[prty]

EVERY driver hates losing. But it´s not true they handle defeat equally bad if that´s what you´re trying to sell.

 

Yes, Vettel has come across as spoiled after losing. And a handful of times actually! "DRS is ridiculous!" (USA 12), magic button example, "but I want to win!" Hungary 11.

 

However, I haven´t ever seen a driver turning into another and making gestures to him in a parade lap for not letting him pass. Ever. And I don´t think I´ll ever see it again. And then, as a plus, later and cooled down, in a press interview he accuse him of defending position "as if his life depended on it" when actually he barely had to move offline a couple of times in a very long fight.

 

Bottomline: They all hate losing, but they aren´t not-gracious on defeat to the same degree. Not at all.

 

As far as I know Vettel wasn't held up during the final race with the championship at stake by a non-WDC contender did he? If he is at some point of his career, then you can come back and saying he behave well. But good luck with it.

 

To give some perspective, Bernoldi held Coulthard at Monaco 2001, early in the season, and this was the response:

 

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/4520/

 

Dennis had slammed the Brazilian after the race, accusing him and his team of unsporting behaviour. Coulthard agreed with his boss'point of view.

 

"I think two or three years ago I would have pushed him so far into the harbour...," said the Scot, still second in the championship but now 12 points behind Ferrari's Michael Schumacher.

"We were in 17th place, he's let his team mate past because he's obviously so slow and the Minardis are pulling away from him and then he proceeds to drive like he's getting some sort of glory in holding me up. No way was he ever going to keep in front of me once the pit-stops had happened. The sporting gesture would have been to move over."

 

"I don't think what he did makes him appear a better racing driver or more desirable to other teams," he added. "I think it just makes him look like a short-sighted person because what goes around comes around."

So again, maybe you will have to re-check your facts about what happens and what doesn't happen in F1. Can you imagine the reaction if Alonso had said that he should have pushed him off the track?

Edited by prty, 29 November 2013 - 20:31.

[vista]

You're right. Some drivers are so arrogant that they are not-gracious even in victory. 

 

"I should go to Ayrton's grave and tell him what his nephew did" - Vettel after Brazil 2012.

 

I don't think I've ever heard a driver bring up the dead relative of another driver after a collision, despite winning the WDC anyway, and I don't think I'll ever hear it again. 

 

If that is how SV acts after winning, one can only imagine how pathetic his behaviour will be when losing. 

 

Vettel has never lost a championship in the final race of the season, but I imagine more toys being thrown out of the pram than Alonso ever did if it ever happens.

 

Oh, and lastly, please give up on your desperate attempts to make Vettel into some sort of tragic hero and turn Alonso into a phantom villain. Every single one of your cheap shots at Alonso in this thread has failed miserably.

 

Did he seriously say that? I didn't know at all. But it's episodes like that which triggers booing and people to unlike you. I think Vettel has had many already - even during 2011. In general I think that is why people dislike Vettel so much.

 

Compared to Alonso in the last 3-4 years, Vettel has had more before mentioned episodes but he is still young and aggressive unlike Alonso who may be slightly more conservative in his Ferrari years.

[bourbon]

You're right. Some drivers are so arrogant that they are not-gracious even in victory. 

 

"I should go to Ayrton's grave and tell him what his nephew did" - Vettel after Brazil 2012.

 

I don't think I've ever heard a driver bring up the dead relative of another driver after a collision, despite winning the WDC anyway, and I don't think I'll ever hear it again. 

 

If that is how SV acts after winning, one can only imagine how pathetic his behaviour will be when losing. 

 

Vettel has never lost a championship in the final race of the season, but I imagine more toys being thrown out of the pram than Alonso ever did if it ever happens.

 

Oh, and lastly, please give up on your desperate attempts to make Vettel into some sort of tragic hero and turn Alonso into a phantom villain. Every single one of your cheap shots at Alonso in this thread has failed miserably.

 

 

Here is what was actually said:

 

Journo:  "..and then comes the nephew of Aryton Senna, and here in brazil crashes in the back of your car, what did you think at that moment?"

Vettel: (smiles) "Well let's see, the grave of Ayrton Senna is here in Sau Paulo, at the gaveyard in Murumbi.One has to go there and tell him what is nephew did today. which did not help us ..."

 

 

Kingshark, Seb did not just state out of the blue that he should pop over to Ayrton's grave and badmouth Bruno, as you imply.  It was part of a conversation in which the journo remarked that he had equaled A. Senna's WDC tally and in which Seb advised that A. Senna was one of his heroes.  It was then that the journo framed the question in just that way, to be ironic and Vettel answered accordingly. 

 

You may still find the question as well as the answer disrespectful or despicable, but let's at least keep it accurate.

Edited by bourbon, 29 November 2013 - 21:38.

[Lone]

EVERY driver hates losing. But it´s not true they handle defeat equally bad if that´s what you´re trying to sell.

Yes, Vettel has come across as spoiled after losing. And a handful of times actually! "DRS is ridiculous!" (USA 12), magic button example, "but I want to win!" Hungary 11.

However, I haven´t ever seen a driver turning into another and making gestures to him in a parade lap for not letting him pass. Ever. And I don´t think I´ll ever see it again. And then, as a plus, later and cooled down, in a press interview he accuse him of defending position "as if his life depended on it" when actually he barely had to move offline a couple of times in a very long fight.

Bottomline: They all hate losing, but they aren´t not-gracious on defeat to the same degree. Not at all.

You said Alonso was mentally fragile but no you admit Vettel is now different.

Edited by Lone, 30 November 2013 - 07:52.

[Fontainebleau]

It might be off-topic, but can you post a link to that onboard footage showing the distance between the cars ? I am specifically interested in seeing the distance at Parabolica, since Alonso was penalized for impeding Massa (for which Ferrari protested and used Massa's telemetry as evidence) at that particular corner, where the gap was less than 1 second if I recall correctly.

SV401, following on my previous reply to this post of yours, this is what I have found on youtube - comparison between Massa's Q3 laps in 2006 and 2012. In the 2006 window you can see the Renault ahead of him. Hope it helps!

 

[1Devil1]

You're right. Some drivers are so arrogant that they are not-gracious even in victory. 

 

"I should go to Ayrton's grave and tell him what his nephew did" - Vettel after Brazil 2012.

 

I don't think I've ever heard a driver bring up the dead relative of another driver after a collision, despite winning the WDC anyway, and I don't think I'll ever hear it again. 

 

If that is how SV acts after winning, one can only imagine how pathetic his behaviour will be when losing. 

 

Vettel has never lost a championship in the final race of the season, but I imagine more toys being thrown out of the pram than Alonso ever did if it ever happens.

 

Oh, and lastly, please give up on your desperate attempts to make Vettel into some sort of tragic hero and turn Alonso into a phantom villain. Every single one of your cheap shots at Alonso in this thread has failed miserably.

 

Guess what? Vettel didn't lose the championship in a last race, and I see no reason at all to project behavior we saw from Alonso to a hypothetical situation. We can leave it by the real facts, Alonso threw his toys out of the pram, when a situation liked that accrued not Vettel, "imagination" is a nice way to enforce a certain opinion. Vettel went over the top by referring to Senna's grave, but as mentioned he said it after the journalist talked about A. Senna and B.Senna, Vettel tried to cut the question by a joke we have seen ofter from him before, which was framed as normal, funny behavior, but he went to far her, I am sure he regretted it afterwards. Nothing to be ashamed a year after, by keeping in mind the way Vettel's answers media questions, and the situation. Context is sometimes more than a pure, and false, quote..

Edited by 1Devil1, 29 November 2013 - 22:45.

[abc]

You're right. Some drivers are so arrogant that they are not-gracious even in victory. 

 

"I should go to Ayrton's grave and tell him what his nephew did" - Vettel after Brazil 2012.

 

I don't think I've ever heard a driver bring up the dead relative of another driver after a collision, despite winning the WDC anyway, and I don't think I'll ever hear it again. 

 

If that is how SV acts after winning, one can only imagine how pathetic his behaviour will be when losing. 

 

Vettel has never lost a championship in the final race of the season, but I imagine more toys being thrown out of the pram than Alonso ever did if it ever happens.

 

Oh, and lastly, please give up on your desperate attempts to make Vettel into some sort of tragic hero and turn Alonso into a phantom villain. Every single one of your cheap shots at Alonso in this thread has failed miserably.

It was tongue in cheek and you know it, bringing it here like you did is the lowest level, congrats

[sheepgobba]

Lol pretty amazing how people are so hurt by opinions of drivers in regards to who is seen as the best...

 

Really touches a nerve in people. Just opinions end of the day and not anymore so than fact. 

[prty]

It was tongue in cheek and you know it, bringing it here like you did is the lowest level, congrats

I think we all know it was tongue in cheek, as Vettel most likely doesn't have the ability to talk to those who are not here anymore.
The point is that there are some things that you can't joke about.

[1Devil1]

I think we all know it was tongue in cheek, as Vettel most likely doesn't have the ability to talk to those who are not here anymore.
The point is that there are some things that you can't joke about.

 

The point is you can't behave like he did say in an angry way and quote misleading phrases, that's far from the truth, Kingshark made it to a bitter answer while nearly losing the WDC because of B.Senna. It wasn't. 

[Kingshark]

The point is you can't behave like he did say in an angry way and quote misleading phrases, that's far from the truth, Kingshark made it to a bitter answer while nearly losing the WDC because of B.Senna. It wasn't. 

 

What he said was still moronic though, and I see no good reason to believe that Vettel is any more gracious than Alonso in defeat when him and Marko screamed conspiracy theory after Valencia 2012.

 

I don't have the slightest problem which posters who believe that Vettel is a better driver than Alonso (if reasons are honest), but I see no reason to believe that Vettel the tragic angel fallen from the sky and Alonso a sinister villain, which is what Skinnyguy basically wants us to believe.

[as65p]

However, I haven´t ever seen a driver turning into another and making gestures to him in a parade lap for not letting him pass.

 

Quite right, driving into an opponents car (for real) followed by insulting gestures happened only once.

 

Really good example to bring up Turkey 2010.

[Tarzaan]

http://www.motorspor...lonso-question/

 

Mixed voting and some non-answers, but Alonso won't be feeling too bad about what his peers think of him. 

 

Alonso won this poll, Seb won the WDC (+ the 3 before). I think Vettel can live with this.
 

 

 

IMO considering that Vettel has won the last 4 championships and Alonso has won none for 7 years, the fact Alonso is perceived as better than Vettel overall by the drivers (6-2) and at least as good by the majority, is a pretty remarkable insight I think. I don't see that a few nationalistic/tactical votes changes anything. Alonso is rated higher by the DRIVERS, despite Vettel's success. Just goes to show, its not all about what you win, its also how you win. 

 

Or just sour grapes...

Edited by Tarzaan, 30 November 2013 - 12:06.

[Zoetrope]

This thread 

[Jejking]

 

However, I haven´t ever seen a driver turning into another and making gestures to him in a parade lap for not letting him pass. Ever. And I don´t think I´ll ever see it again. And then, as a plus, later and cooled down, in a press interview he accuse him of defending position "as if his life depended on it" when actually he barely had to move offline a couple of times in a very long fight.

 

Bottomline: They all hate losing, but they aren´t not-gracious on defeat to the same degree. Not at all.

Are you sure?

 

Edited by Jejking, 30 November 2013 - 12:11.

[1Devil1]

This thread 

 more this

[F1Champion]

One thing you can't fault with Alonso is that if you give Alonso durable tyres and a decent car, his race pace consistency is amazing. He won't drop the pace if the car/tyres are good. His qualifying speed is a bit unknown.

[PoleMan]

Alonso won this poll, Seb won the WDC (+ the 3 before). I think Vettel can live with this.
 

I hope he lives with it better than some of his supporters on this forum.  

 

What Alonso also appears to have won is the respect of his peers, despite Seb winning 4 on the trot. No one is taking anything away from Vettel's brilliant driving, they're just giving kudos to Fernando. But that seems to really raise the ire of some. 

[sennafan24]

I hope he lives with it better than some of his supporters on this forum.

 

What Alonso also appears to have won is the respect of his peers, despite Seb winning 4 on the trot. No one is taking anything away from Vettel's brilliant driving, they're just giving kudos to Fernando. But that seems to really raise the ire of some. 

That is the nature of partisans I am afraid.

 

Seb fans are forgetting how critically acclaimed Alonso was as a driver before 2013, despite Seb's outstanding 2013, it will take him a bit more time for him to convince others on the grid that he is the main man over Alonso. I think Seb is the best on the current grid on current form, or at least equal best, but despite his high quantity of titles, he is not as established as Alonso.

 

You could argue Alonso has been the best driver on the grid in general since 2005, that is a hell of long time.

[1Devil1]

I hope he lives with it better than some of his supporters on this forum.

 

What Alonso also appears to have won is the respect of his peers, despite Seb winning 4 on the trot. No one is taking anything away from Vettel's brilliant driving, they're just giving kudos to Fernando. But that seems to really raise the ire of some. 

 

seven drivers didn't say something about it, funny that people believe that a poll from a newspaper, has anything to do with reality, without keeping in mind, which newspaper asked the question, the spanish AS, let's AMuS ask the drivers and we have a different picture, you can see those effect all over the world, if a german newspaper ask a athlete about the best footballer, he will smooth his answer, and pick a german one. Does anybody really believe that a driver does not think about, to what news paper he is talking to. It's funny that people make it out as all drivers met on a table and made a decision who is the best driver on the grid..  

Edited by 1Devil1, 30 November 2013 - 13:10.

[PoleMan]

seven drivers didn't say something about it, funny that people believe that a poll from a newspaper, has anything to do with reality, without keeping in mind, which newspaper asked the question, the spanish AS, let's AMuS ask the drivers and we have a different picture, you can see those effect all over the world, if a german newspaper ask a athlete about the best footballer, he will smooth his answer, and pick a german one. Does anybody really believe that a driver does not think about, to what news paper he is talking to. It's funny that people make it out as all drivers met on a table and made a decision who is the best driver on the grid..  

A meaningless survey of F1 drivers that apparently means so much to you that you are Hell-bent on discrediting it on nationality and other grounds. 

 

It's just a silly little poll, afterall. So why are you spitting nails about it?  

Edited by PoleMan, 30 November 2013 - 13:22.

[1Devil1]

A meaningless survey of F1 drivers that apparently means so much to you that you are Hell-bent on discrediting it on nationality and other grounds. 

 

It's just a silly little poll, afterall. So why are you spitting nails about it?  

 

Nice way, the old, argument you write in this thread, you care about it too much, nationality is a factor in media, it is a proven fact, it is also a proven fact that it makes a difference who is asking me, and it what situation, though, don't play the card you are bringing group/nationality thinking into the game, I bring it up because it is relevant because media works around that pattern, Just inform yourself better about it. It seems nevertheless you care more about it than me because you started this "eloquent" thread

[PoleMan]

Nice way, the old, argument you write in this thread, you care about it too much, nationality is a factor in media, it is a proven fact, it is also a proven fact that it makes a difference who is asking me, and it what situation, though, don't play the card you are bringing group/nationality thinking into the game, I bring it up because it is relevant because media works around that pattern, Just inform yourself better about it. It seems nevertheless you care more about it than me because you started this "eloquent" thread

I started it because I found it interesting, and others seem to share that interest. It's hardly definitive, and I don't see anyone taking it as such. For most, it's just "water-cooler" talk.

 

Some, tho, are taking it far too seriously. Curiously, going so far as to come up with theories for why the "results" should be invalidated. Where's Jimmy Carter? We need election monitors. 

Edited by PoleMan, 30 November 2013 - 13:46.

[mardmarium]

seven drivers didn't say something about it, funny that people believe that a poll from a newspaper, has anything to do with reality, without keeping in mind, which newspaper asked the question, the spanish AS, let's AMuS ask the drivers and we have a different picture, you can see those effect all over the world, if a german newspaper ask a athlete about the best footballer, he will smooth his answer, and pick a german one. Does anybody really believe that a driver does not think about, to what news paper he is talking to. It's funny that people make it out as all drivers met on a table and made a decision who is the best driver on the grid..  

 

How do you know? Some of them gave categorical answers and they didn’t need to do that (no matter the newspaper nationality), they could have said “I don´t know”, as simple as that, even German drivers said “I don´t know” or “Alonso maybe” (I am sure they could have said Vettel and the Spanish newspaper wouldn´t be offended). By the way, talking about nationalities, as far as I know, the drivers who speak Spanish don’t have the same nationality (if Webber says “Hamilton is the best driver” that´s because both of them come from English speaking countries?)

 

F1 drivers express their options and there is drama in the air, nothing new. I would like to know why people who write in this forum can think and say whatever they want but F1 drivers cannot.

 

The best part is the talk about mental weaknesses. If the driver complains or doesn´t like to lose that´s because he is mentally fragile…in that case all drivers are mentally fragile, starting by Vettel, who needs to say “get him out of the way” in order to win. (This is the kind of reasoning I have been reading in this thread and sorry, double standards here)

 

F1 drivers can think whatever they want and if I have enough humility I must admit that they have to know much more than I do about this matter (surely they have much more information). In any case, just opinions, they can be right or wrong, the important thing is that they are not stating facts, just opinions and their opinions can be as subjective as anybody else opinions.

 

 

 

In short they are all as bad as each other, and all very human. I hate the term "fanboy" but it really is the most militant fanboys who select certain comments and decide to take offence, yet twist others to make them seem okay.

 

Great comment

[santababy]

So Bernie has spoken, Alonso will win his 3rd title.
2014 then.

[SpaMaster]

Here is what was actually said:

 

Journo:  "..and then comes the nephew of Aryton Senna, and here in brazil crashes in the back of your car, what did you think at that moment?"

Vettel: (smiles) "Well let's see, the grave of Ayrton Senna is here in Sau Paulo, at the gaveyard in Murumbi.One has to go there and tell him what is nephew did today. which did not help us ..."

 

 

Kingshark, Seb did not just state out of the blue that he should pop over to Ayrton's grave and badmouth Bruno, as you imply.  It was part of a conversation in which the journo remarked that he had equaled A. Senna's WDC tally and in which Seb advised that A. Senna was one of his heroes.  It was then that the journo framed the question in just that way, to be ironic and Vettel answered accordingly. 

 

You may still find the question as well as the answer disrespectful or despicable, but let's at least keep it accurate.

I think you should also bold and enlarge "(smiles)" so that some people understand the context of the conversation.

 

[st99]

How do you know? Some of them gave categorical answers and they didn’t need to do that (no matter the newspaper nationality), they could have said “I don´t know”, as simple as that, even German drivers said “I don´t know” or “Alonso maybe” (I am sure they could have said Vettel and the Spanish newspaper wouldn´t be offended). By the way, talking about nationalities, as far as I know, the drivers who speak Spanish don’t have the same nationality (if Webber says “Hamilton is the best driver” that´s because both of them come from English speaking countries?)

 

 

If you say this, you must not know the journalist that made the interview  He does get really offended if someone says Alonso is not the best, believe me, I have to listen to him saying it almost every weekend.

[kosmos]

If you say this, you must not know the journalist that made the interview  He does get really offended if someone says Alonso is not the best, believe me, I have to listen to him saying it almost every weekend.

 

 

Not really, in fact he has been a big advocate of Vettel this season, more than any other Spanish journalist. And he can't stop talking about how much Vettel has grown in every A3 tertulia he was on.

[st99]

Not really, in fact he has been a big advocate of Vettel this season, more than any other Spanish journalist. And he can't stop talking about how much Vettel has grown in every A3 tertulia he was on.

 

Really? 

I must have missed that part because I usually turn down the volume when they start arguing about how many times RB have screwed Webber, how much they want Vettel to have a DNF or things like that...

[bourbon]

What he said was still moronic though,

 

That is for everyone to decide for themselves.  You do not have the right to force your opinion on others by rephrasing Sebastian's words into words he did not say and changing the context .  That is all I am saying.

 

and I see no good reason to believe that Vettel is any more gracious than Alonso in defeat when him and Marko screamed conspiracy theory after Valencia 2012.

 

 

Here you go again.  It wasn't defeat.  Sebastian's alternator blew out, so he was out of the race whether they bunched the field or not.  Thus, your insinuation that Sebastian was being ungracious toward his competitors as a result of being defeated by them is nonsense.  The most you could say is that he was ungracious to his alternator after being defeated by it - which is of course, ridiculous.

 

I don't have the slightest problem which posters who believe that Vettel is a better driver than Alonso (if reasons are honest), but I see no reason to believe that Vettel the tragic angel fallen from the sky and Alonso a sinister villain, which is what Skinnyguy basically wants us to believe.

 

Well I don't know from that.  I say let the driver/car combos duke it out on track and may the best combo win.   Vettel is a young blast of talent and Alonso is an experienced talent - in truth, their careers are not comparable at this time.  We have to wait until they finish, imo. 

Edited by bourbon, 30 November 2013 - 20:05.

[RosannaG]

Not really, in fact he has been a big advocate of Vettel this season, more than any other Spanish journalist. And he can't stop talking about how much Vettel has grown in every A3 tertulia he was on.

 

I'm a little confused here... Are you talking about Manuel Franco? 

[mardmarium]

If you say this, you must not know the journalist that made the interview  He does get really offended if someone says Alonso is not the best, believe me, I have to listen to him saying it almost every weekend.

 

What’s all this talk about the journalist? Is this journalist the most influential person in F1? I´ve heard and read a respectable amount of biased comments from journalism (from several nationalities) and what?

 

What kind of interview was this?

 

Journalist: you have to say what I want you to say.

 

Driver: no problem, I will lie if necessary, in no way I want to offend you (of course, German drivers are extremely worried about offending this journalist and Spaniards in general but they are not worried at all about offending a German driver or Germans in general).

 

This talk about nationalism and journalism doesn´t make much sense. Being realistic, it seems they said basically what they think; many times the simpler explanation is the correct one.

[Gorma]

What’s all this talk about the journalist? Is this journalist the most influential person in F1? I´ve heard and read a respectable amount of biased comments from journalism (from several nationalities) and what?

You must be very new to journalism... 

 

Most drivers avoid answering (most drivers did) to these types of loaded questions, because their words will get twisted by the journos no matter what they say. You can get totally different answers from people when asking seemingly similar questions "Is Vettel better than Alonso?", "Is Alonso faster than Vettel", "Which one is the better driver: Alonso or Vettel?", "Do you think Alonso and Vettel are equally good?", "Do you think Vettel is as good as Alonso?", "Do you think Alonso is as fast as Vettel", "Which one has performed better this season: Alonso or Vettel?", "Who do you admire/respect more: Vettel or Alonso", "Which one would you choose to your team?", "Who is yout favourite driver?", "Is Alonso the best driver?" 

 

Judging by the answers the drivers gave they weren't all asked the same question.

 

"They are both great drivers"

"I think that in that Red Bull, Alonso would win even more easily than Vettel does"

"I don't know if Alonso is the best, but he's one of the best, no doubt. Better than Seb? Maybe."

"Um ... that's a difficult question. I think I would have them both!"

"Although this year has been all about Vettel, it is clear to me that Alonso is the best."

"Alonso, yes, Alonso. He is still the best."

"If I was a team boss ... when I am a team boss I will show you who I would sign"

"Impossible to say, impossible to know."

 

If they think before they answer then it's written: "He hesitated and answered" or if the answer immediately it's "He answered without a blink of an eye".

Edited by Gorma, 01 December 2013 - 16:55.

[sv401]

this is what I have found on youtube - comparison between Massa's Q3 laps in 2006 and 2012. In the 2006 window you can see the Renault ahead of him.

 

The quality of the video is not good enough to tell if it is a Renault ahead, or some other car on a different lap; the description does not say anything about which particular qualifying lap it shows. But assuming that it is indeed that infamous lap, the gap could in fact have been less than 1 s at Parabolica. At 210 kph, 1 second is about 58 meters of distance, which may look huge from an onboard camera. But the same gap is also enough for the downforce of the following car to be affected in an aerodynamically demanding corner.

[mardmarium]

You must be very new to journalism... 

 

Most drivers avoid answering (most drivers did) to these types of loaded questions, because their words will get twisted by the journos no matter what they say. You can get totally different answers from people when asking seemingly similar questions "Is Vettel better than Alonso?", "Is Alonso faster than Vettel", "Which one is the better driver: Alonso or Vettel?", "Do you think Alonso and Vettel are equally good?", "Do you think Vettel is as good as Alonso?", "Do you think Alonso is as fast as Vettel", "Which one has performed better this season: Alonso or Vettel?", "Who do you admire/respect more: Vettel or Alonso", "Which one would you choose to your team?", "Who is yout favourite driver?", "Is Alonso the best driver?" 

 

Judging by the answers the drivers gave they weren't all asked the same question.

 

"They are both great drivers"

"I think that in that Red Bull, Alonso would win even more easily than Vettel does"

"I don't know if Alonso is the best, but he's one of the best, no doubt. Better than Seb? Maybe."

"Um ... that's a difficult question. I think I would have them both!"

"Although this year has been all about Vettel, it is clear to me that Alonso is the best."

"Alonso, yes, Alonso. He is still the best."

"If I was a team boss ... when I am a team boss I will show you who I would sign"

"Impossible to say, impossible to know."

 

If they think before they answer then it's written: "He hesitated and answered" or if the answer immediately it's "He answered without a blink of an eye".

 

No, I am not new to journalism at all.

 

Judging by their answers, I don´t know why you deduce they weren´t all asked the same question. Who do you think is better, Vettel or Alonso? all those answers suit this question.

 

But even if they weren´t asked the same question, are they saying what they think or not? if not...how do you know?

[Group B]

I don't see any big deal here; most drivers will say Alonso, a) because he's been around doing an excellent job for twice as long and in more varied circumstances, and b) because for their own ego and self belief it's good to convince yourself and others that the guy handing out your biggest trouncing must have a big car advantage. The correct answer, of course, is "impossible to say, impossible to know".

[sv401]

So, you see, the funniest thing is that in the same statement in which they penalise Alonso according to article 116b, the stewards acknowledge that his actions may not have been deliberate - hence contradicting what article 116 b says! No wonder Renault was ballistic...

 

The harsh decision might be at least partly explained by the fact that Alonso was within a couple seconds ahead of Massa for basically the entire lap (on the video you linked, a car is visible from Massa's onboard already at the first chicane), so he had plenty of opportunities to move out of the way, but he chose not to. Of course, he was pushing hard to be able to begin a timed lap before the session ends, so the time was lacking for letting other cars past, but the stewards apparently ignored that excuse.

Edited by sv401, 01 December 2013 - 17:50.

[Gilles4Ever]

I fail to see how this has anything to do with the topic at hand. Please keep to the topic. 

[st99]

What’s all this talk about the journalist? Is this journalist the most influential person in F1? I´ve heard and read a respectable amount of biased comments from journalism (from several nationalities) and what?

 

What kind of interview was this?

 

Journalist: you have to say what I want you to say.

 

Driver: no problem, I will lie if necessary, in no way I want to offend you (of course, German drivers are extremely worried about offending this journalist and Spaniards in general but they are not worried at all about offending a German driver or Germans in general).

 

This talk about nationalism and journalism doesn´t make much sense. Being realistic, it seems they said basically what they think; many times the simpler explanation is the correct one.

 

I was kind of joking because the journalist that made the interview often gets "offended" when someone doesn't share his opinions in the "debates" about F1 in the Spanish TV that broadcasts F1.

[mardmarium]

I don't see any big deal here; most drivers will say Alonso, a) because he's been around doing an excellent job for twice as long and in more varied circumstances, and b) because for their own ego and self belief it's good to convince yourself and others that the guy handing out your biggest trouncing must have a big car advantage. The correct answer, of course, is "impossible to say, impossible to know".

 

Apart from that, I think people are ignoring something quite relevant; F1 drivers can have favorite drivers (current drivers) as well. Drivers who they admire for whatever reason, who they use as a reference…

 

 

I really think Alonso is extremely highly considered by his peers. In fact, I don't know if you have read this comment by Darren Heath, which I found quite surprising http://www.darrenhea...3/blog/playtime

 

It´s quite interesting .

 

Just their opinions, they can be right or wrong, they can be influenced by personal preferences or whatever. “Impossible to know”, that´s the most objective answer in my opinion, but we are talking about opinions and opinions don´t necessarily have to be objective.