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New F1 up to 10 seconds slower?


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#101 SonnyViceR

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 15:14

Out of curiousity, what was the difference like for example around 2007, 2008 with old regulations?

 

Bahrain is not the greatest of comparative examples considering that the ACO sportscars have only raced there since last year and back in 2008 it was GP2 Asia that raced there with the old proper-race-car-and-not-HRT-clone-chassis. You can check out the F1 pole times for yourself but the fastest F1 race laps in 07 and 08 were 1:34.067 and 1:33.193


Edited by SonnyViceR, 01 December 2013 - 15:16.


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#102 Kalmake

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 15:46

OK. I haven't followed GP2. I just looked up Silverstone and it was about 10 seconds there.

 

Probably the relatively slowest F1 cars were after the panicky rule changes in 1994. Fastest F3000 would have been about half way up the F1 grid in Barcelona.



#103 Lemans

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 17:21

How embarrassing.

It's odd. It almost seems like in recent years, F1 has felt guilty about having fast, beautiful and exciting cars, and they seem hell-bent on ridding the world of them.

 

Well, I'd like to congratulate the un-inspired assholes at the FIA for a job well done.


Edited by Lemans, 01 December 2013 - 18:44.


#104 Lazy

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 10:17

http://www.bbc.com/s...rmula1/25158104
 

The indications are that the engine package will achieve very close to the same power as now, if not a bit more.

In terms of car performance, we are looking at loss of 10-15% downforce; as a rough estimate 10% is about a second a lap. They will also be 50 kilos heavier, which equates to approximately 1.5 seconds slower.

So the cars might start the season about three to four seconds or so slower than last year.

But once teams get their head around the front-wing changes some of that will be clawed back - more than a second during the season.

So 3-4 secs, I suspect the teams will get more from the mguh than expected, so even less than that imo.


Edited by Lazy, 04 December 2013 - 10:21.


#105 noikeee

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 10:33

I just noticed a "small" detail: since the fuel for a race is now much less, the difference between laptimes at the start of the race and the end won't be as big. So it may very well be that the cars are 4 or 5 seconds in anger in qualifying trim, but at the start of a race possibly only 2 or 3 seconds compared to last season's first few laps of a race.
 
This is nice for the drivers, the cars won't feel like such undriveable heavy boats in the grid. And they'll claim back full seconds as the regulations develop both on the aero and engine departments over the course of the next season and the following years, so the regs need to be slower on purpose at the start of their development cycle. I suspect this "slow" F1 is a total non-issue and will be more than fine.


#106 Henri Greuter

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 11:57

 

How embarrassing.
It's odd. It almost seems like in recent years, F1 has felt guilty about having fast, beautiful and exciting cars, and they seem hell-bent on ridding the world of them.
 
Well, I'd like to congratulate the un-inspired assholes at the FIA for a job well done.



Do you really like the current lengthy disproportionally contraptions of today? Or only because they are fast and what you cal exciting?

Check out this page and go to post number 335 to see pictures of how disproportinal the cars of today are compared with older cars.

http://forums.autosp...-8#entry6524344

Henri

#107 Lemans

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 18:09

 


Do you really like the current lengthy disproportionally contraptions of today? Or only because they are fast and what you cal exciting?

Check out this page and go to post number 335 to see pictures of how disproportinal the cars of today are compared with older cars.

http://forums.autosp...-8#entry6524344

Henri

 

I think you misunderstood my post. By me saying "recent years" I meant late 90's early 2000's. I did not mean the last few years. I probably should have been a bit more clear.

I hate the current cars as well. I agree, the proportions are horrible and the cars are the size of small yachts. I've been saying for years that the cars are too big and ponderous looking.


Edited by Lemans, 04 December 2013 - 18:13.


#108 4MEN

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 23:01

Surprised to see this news.

http://motor.as.com/...930_941090.html

 

The best time in testing in Jerez of the Formula Renault 3.5 Series is just 2 seconds slower than the F1.

Oliver Rowland - FR 3.5 - 1:25.396 (25/4/14)

Kevin Magnussen - F1 - 1:23.276 (28/1/14)

 

I know, different days, early F1 test... but close times!



#109 Scotracer

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 23:08

Does 3.5 use the chicane or not? I know MotoGP doesn't.

#110 4MEN

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 23:10

I guess they used the same layout. Otherwise the journalist is an idiot... (and being it an AS new, that's a strong possibility).



#111 PayasYouRace

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 23:20

There's probably not that much difference between a modern FR3.5 car and the F1 cars of 1994 which had similar laptimes at Jerez. Meanwhile in the first test this year, the current F1 teams were not exactly pushing the limits on their brand new cars.

 

I don't think there's much to comment on. It's more relevant to compare this year's F1 cars to others of recent years, on the same tracks in similar conditions.



#112 scheivlak

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 23:21

Surprised to see this news.

http://motor.as.com/...930_941090.html

 

The best time in testing in Jerez of the Formula Renault 3.5 Series is just 2 seconds slower than the F1.

Oliver Rowland - FR 3.5 - 1:25.396 (25/4/14)

Kevin Magnussen - F1 - 1:23.276 (28/1/14)

 

I know, different days, early F1 test... but close times!

 

That test was the first, very tentative one, in January   ;)

 

The journalist missed a chance here to write that the FR 3.5 cars were 4.5 seconds faster than any Renault powered F1 car and even 13 seconds faster than Sebastian Vettel in a Red Bull F1 car  :D

 

That's how significant his story is   ;)


Edited by scheivlak, 29 March 2014 - 23:21.


#113 pingu666

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 01:48

saw a thing on fb few days ago where the caterham gp2 team was 2 seconds or more faster at bahrain xD



#114 Crazy Ninja

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 02:08

I noticed the speed trap times at Sepang have topped 200mph for the first time.... ever? The official f1 site only had data that went back to 2004/5. Although speed trap doesn't equate to lap time; I was happy on a superficial level to see them hitting the double ton.



#115 saudoso

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 02:11

1500HP feul saving formula in the 80s. What part of 1500HP, stick shift, no ABS, TC or ground force, you don't get?

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=YbKgW-gX7SI

#116 Otaku

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 04:15

1500HP feul saving formula in the 80s. What part of 1500HP, stick shift, no ABS, TC or ground force, you don't get?

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=YbKgW-gX7SI

 

MP4/4 had 685 HP on that boost-limited Honda turbo engine...

 

http://www.k20a.org/...A168EEngine.pdf

 

:up:



#117 saudoso

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 20:59

Well, all the rest stands...

#118 race addicted

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 21:04

The pace in todays race was really slow compared with the lap record from ten years ago; a 1.33 something…..

Wont be too much fun to be Marussia and Caterham when GP2 joins the circus!



#119 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 21:10

 

I just noticed a "small" detail: since the fuel for a race is now much less, the difference between laptimes at the start of the race and the end won't be as big. So it may very well be that the cars are 4 or 5 seconds in anger in qualifying trim, but at the start of a race possibly only 2 or 3 seconds compared to last season's first few laps of a race.
 
This is nice for the drivers, the cars won't feel like such undriveable heavy boats in the grid. And they'll claim back full seconds as the regulations develop both on the aero and engine departments over the course of the next season and the following years, so the regs need to be slower on purpose at the start of their development cycle. I suspect this "slow" F1 is a total non-issue and will be more than fine.

 

 

The minimum weight of the car is about 50kg heavier this year (642>691kg). Even with the lower fuel load they are starting the race about 20kg heavier than last year.



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#120 PIJAMAS

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 01:48

There's probably not that much difference between a modern FR3.5 car and the F1 cars of 1994 which had similar laptimes at Jerez. Meanwhile in the first test this year, the current F1 teams were not exactly pushing the limits on their brand new cars.

 

I don't think there's much to comment on. It's more relevant to compare this year's F1 cars to others of recent years, on the same tracks in similar conditions.

Wow, no offense but what a layman claim

 

You can't compare the times with 94 because the layout is not exactly the same.

 

And 1994 cars had more downforce than any other cars afterwards, I read on a tech book

 

F1 now is on same weight as FR3.5 and GP2, what is still covering them is the power. Especially FR3.5 cars have much less power than F1, otherwise they would be faster

 

F1 pace was pathetic today. They are way too slow in corners, it's their huge top speeds that are covering it on their's laptimes



#121 Horrido

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 03:20

Will the new LMP1 cars be faster than this years F1 cars? We will get a glimpse at Silverstone.

#122 EarnardBeccelstone

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 04:18

1500HP feul saving formula in the 80s. What part of 1500HP, stick shift, no ABS, TC or ground force, you don't get?

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=YbKgW-gX7SI

 

 

1500 hp, maybe. In qualifying only. For one lap. With unrestricted boost, special fuels, "three-lap special" engines and quali-specific turbochargers that had a tendency to hand grenade.

 

The engines were producing nothing like 1500 hp during the race. Nor 1,000 hp. For most of the 1980s, the engines were between about 700 and 850 hp maximum in race trim, but most races were fuel limited, minimum power exercises.

 

Its one thing to mythologise the past, but its another to distort it completely out of shape.



#123 PayasYouRace

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:43

Wow, no offense but what a layman claim

 

You can't compare the times with 94 because the layout is not exactly the same.

 

And 1994 cars had more downforce than any other cars afterwards, I read on a tech book

 

F1 now is on same weight as FR3.5 and GP2, what is still covering them is the power. Especially FR3.5 cars have much less power than F1, otherwise they would be faster

 

F1 pace was pathetic today. They are way too slow in corners, it's their huge top speeds that are covering it on their's laptimes

 

The Jerez layout is exactly the same now as in 1994.

 

The 1994 cars had a good amount of downforce, and regulations in the following year's cut that a lot, true. Do you actually have downforce numbers over the years? When you look at how the 1997 cars were faster on most circuits, including Jerez, with 0.5 l less engine capacity, the time had to come from somewhere.

 

But overall, with the same capacity engine, the laptimes are similar so a fair if not exact comparison can be made.

 

What I find amusing is that many have been complaining for ages that F1 cars should have less downforce and more power, giving higher top speeds and lower cornering speeds. Inevitibly, others complain that that is the case. I didn't think F1 was pathetic today. It would probably look slow on a side-by-side comparison, but standing alone it looked ok. Plus we're not taking into account that with such new regulations, time will be found quite quickly.



#124 Donkey

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 09:01

The Jerez layout is exactly the same now as in 1994.

 

The 1994 cars had a good amount of downforce, and regulations in the following year's cut that a lot, true. Do you actually have downforce numbers over the years? When you look at how the 1997 cars were faster on most circuits, including Jerez, with 0.5 l less engine capacity, the time had to come from somewhere.

 

But overall, with the same capacity engine, the laptimes are similar so a fair if not exact comparison can be made.

 

What I find amusing is that many have been complaining for ages that F1 cars should have less downforce and more power, giving higher top speeds and lower cornering speeds. Inevitibly, others complain that that is the case. I didn't think F1 was pathetic today. It would probably look slow on a side-by-side comparison, but standing alone it looked ok. Plus we're not taking into account that with such new regulations, time will be found quite quickly.

Put the new cars back on the Malaysia track at the end of the season and I bet they would be 4 seconds quicker.


Edited by Donkey, 31 March 2014 - 09:01.


#125 ExFlagMan

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 09:56

1500HP feul saving formula in the 80s. What part of 1500HP, stick shift, no ABS, TC or ground force, you don't get?

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=YbKgW-gX7SI

Yes - the good old days of about 6-10 cars (out of 26 starters) finishing a race, half of which were at least 1 lap down on the winner.

#126 SenorSjon

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 09:59

But the cars of the years gone bye would also be faster in end of season trim.



#127 Brandz07

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 11:04

Will the new LMP1 cars be faster than this years F1 cars? We will get a glimpse at Silverstone.

Not a chance. There would have to be a near 20 seconds swing from last year to this year for LMP1's to catch up, let alone be faster.


Edited by Brandz07, 31 March 2014 - 11:04.


#128 7MGTEsup

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 11:12

The Jerez layout is exactly the same now as in 1994.

 

The 1994 cars had a good amount of downforce, and regulations in the following year's cut that a lot, true. Do you actually have downforce numbers over the years? When you look at how the 1997 cars were faster on most circuits, including Jerez, with 0.5 l less engine capacity, the time had to come from somewhere.

 

 

The lap time in 1997 came from the tyre war that year. If I recall correctly they were about 3 seconds a lap faster on some circuits than in 1996.



#129 PayasYouRace

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 11:52

The lap time in 1997 came from the tyre war that year. If I recall correctly they were about 3 seconds a lap faster on some circuits than in 1996.

 

Yeah that makes sense. Still, I don't think it affects my comparison much.



#130 Skinnyguy

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 12:09

And 1994 cars had more downforce than any other cars afterwards, I read on a tech book


No way in hell. Unless the book is really old of course.

#131 Nahnever

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 19:04

2013 Bahrain GP Fastest lap: 1:36:961


2014 Bahrain GP Fastest lap: 1:37:020


Well well, were nearly there. Incredible showing from Mercedes.

#132 DanardiF1

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 19:10

Everyone else is a bit further back from that though... but yeah it shows what is possible with these regulations given a good car and good powertrain integration.



#133 apoka

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 19:19

It basically shows that lap times are not a problem. If the cars do that in the third race of new regulations, then it is likely that they will eventually lap faster (or at least not significantly slower) if the rules remain stable.



#134 KingTiger

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 19:26

The removal of the beam wing and the smaller front wing are probably more to blame for the slow times than the engine.