42 replies to this topic

[kayemod]

The appointment of Pastor Maldonado to a top F1 seat at Lotus wasn't entirely unexpected, money talks, though almost no-one except Maldonado himself and possibly his mum, thought he got the job on talent alone. In olden times, the sport wasn't the big money operation it has become, things were financially pretty tight for a lot of teams, so it must have been possible to buy your way into a team that wouldn't otherwise have considered you. I'm not expecting any (good) surprises from PM in 2014, if things go the way most of us predict, it could well be his last year at the top level, but what other drivers have elicited comments like "What on earth were they thinking of?" when a team announced their employment, only to confound expectations and prove to be hidden gold. Nigel Mansell is an obvious example, though there was no financial inducement when he got the (real) Lotus job, Colin Chapman was just about his only supporter in the Team, but can TNFs think of a few others from the 50s, 60s and 70s?

[Tim Murray]

Niki Lauda. As a BRM fan I was very dubious when they took him on after his fairly lacklustre 1972 season with March.

[kayemod]

Niki Lauda. As a BRM fan I was very dubious when they took him on after his fairly lacklustre 1972 season with March.

 

You're quite right, in career terms not all that different from Mansell, but with BRM I don't think Lauda brought any finance to the team. I was really after names that would now be derided as "pay-drivers", who surprised people like the not easy to impress Denis Jenkinson, by proving to be rather good.

[Vitesse2]

You're quite right, in career terms not all that different from Mansell, but with BRM I don't think Lauda brought any finance to the team.

Au contraire: I thought the tale of Niki juggling bank loans and inventing sponsors was quite well-known - he'd pulled a similar stunt at March, but this passage refers specifically to his initial deal with BRM:

 

The problem was that once again Lauda had to pay for the drive. He had to pretend that he had a deal with a major sponsor and managed to live from day to day with money from another £80,000 loan and what he was able to earn from racing touring cars for BMW team Alpina. Lauda realized that it would be nearly impossible to honour the pay-by-race deal unless something extraordinary happened.

http://8w.forix.com/lauda.html

[Richard Jenkins]

I always felt Pedro Diniz was much better than he got credit for. Matched Hill, Alesi et al at times, just lacked that consistency to progress further.

Felipe Massa too came leaps and bounds from the crash happy rabbit caught in headlights start of his career.

[Lee Towers]

James Hunt didn't particularly stand out as a potential World Champion in the junior formula's I don't think.

Sure he had a few wins but I don't think many were labelling him as a future world champion.
 

Perhaps Berger too. BMW got him in at Arrows, I think at the time people felt Gartner was the Austrian to watch.

[garoidb]

I didn't really see Michael Schumacher coming until he actually got to F1. Yes, he had good credentials but they did not mark him out as a sensational prospect by comparison with some of the others rising through the ranks at the same time. 

 

Edit: To be clear, I knew of him in F3 and sportscars, and I did follow F3 at the time. Others like JJ Lehto, Johnny Herbert, Jean Alesi, HH Frentzen and Karl Wendlinger looked just as promising.

Edited by garoidb, 30 November 2013 - 18:18.

[kayemod]

James Hunt didn't particularly stand out as a potential World Champion in the junior formula's I don't think.

Sure he had a few wins but I don't think many were labelling him as a future world champion.
 

Perhaps Berger too. BMW got him in at Arrows, I think at the time people felt Gartner was the Austrian to watch.

 

You're missing the point, we've had threads before on drivers who exceeded expectations, but what I'm interested in is not really that, but the financial aspect, drivers who bought their place into teams who thought they were just getting a life-savingly wealthy seat-warmer, but were pleasantly surprised when they discovered that they'd got a useful driver as well.

[garoidb]

You're missing the point, we've had threads before on drivers who exceeded expectations, but what I'm interested in is not really that, but the financial aspect, drivers who bought their place into teams who thought they were just getting a life-savingly wealthy seat-warmer, but were pleasantly surprised when they discovered that they'd got a useful driver as well.

 

I seem to have missed the point too then. Mansell doesn't really fit the description then, either.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think Diniz would qualify as that "surprisingly un-****" category in his later years, Maldonado not so much. He was quick from the start. I wasnt sure he'd get to F1 because he was so erratic, but he was never not-competitive.

[Richard Jenkins]

You're missing the point, we've had threads before on drivers who exceeded expectations, but what I'm interested in is not really that, but the financial aspect, drivers who bought their place into teams who thought they were just getting a life-savingly wealthy seat-warmer, but were pleasantly surprised when they discovered that they'd got a useful driver as well.

Well if that's your criteria, why are you discussing a multiple winner in F.Renault 3.5, Euro F3000 and GP2, GP2 champion 2010 and GP (and impressively so in a dog of a car) winner? Maldonado is not a pay driver, hes well backed. Like de Cesaris or even de Angelis, say. You cant possibly compare Maldonado to say, Mazzacane or Pesenti-Rossi

So rich kid come good - de Angelis, de Portago and Diniz

Edited by Richard Jenkins, 30 November 2013 - 19:58.

[kayemod]

Maldonado is not a pay driver, he's...

 

I doubt if you'd get much agreement on that, only hefty backing from Venezuela has got him where he is, without that he'd sink like a stone.

[Ray Bell]

Agreed...

 

Being a 'pay driver' doesn't necessarily mean using one's own (or family) money.

[KWSN - DSM]

Andrea de Cesaris? His results never backed his genuine speed, he had close to no results prior F1, but hung around for +200 Grand Epreuves, took last Pole Positon for Alfa Romero, and possibly led last Grand Prix Alfa Romero did as a team.

 

[Charlieman]

What is the difference between a 'pay driver' or one who benefits from direct family money or from a generous personal sponsor? What about the drivers who inspired sufficient confidence that somebody else sold them to sponsors? 

 

John Watson sold himself on ability and modest charm. He found people who found others to pay for the company name on his car. He was an F1 pay driver.

 

David Purley raced on LEC money; he was bloody good but raced on family wealth for years. 

 

Roger Williamson found a personal sponsor.

[Charlieman]

Rikky von Opel? He wasn't up to the task, I know, but what on earth Mo Nunn was thinking of? Ah, gotcha...

 

Rikky was a lucky driver in F3 with a great team manger. Rikky was not a bad driver in F1; not quick enough.

 

But Rikky incidentally created an F1 team, Ensign. Ensign thankfully survived.

[Richard Jenkins]

Fabrizio Barbazza. Chosen ahead of Gianni Morbidelli but got two points finishes before the money ran out in 1993.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I doubt if you'd get much agreement on that, only hefty backing from Venezuela has got him where he is, without that he'd sink like a stone.

 

I think that's more a reflection of the state of F1 economics than Maldonado. In a more funded era someone might have taken a chance on him. As Richard points out he had the speed/results at every level. His only negative was that he erratic. Which is one of the few issues you can realistically train out of a driver.

[Richard Jenkins]

I doubt if you'd get much agreement on that, only hefty backing from Venezuela has got him where he is, without that he'd sink like a stone.

Despite him proving himself at every level and being a GP winner? Money has helped him but generally he's made the most of it. If you want to pick on someone in F1 only as he has money, pick on Max Chilton whose lower forulae record is much poorer despite money helping him? Or is it Chilton's British and not therefore attackable?

You might have well called this the anti-Maldonado thread and stuck it in Racing Comments. Now if Sirotkin went to Ferrari or Ma went to Red Bull, then Id be more inclined to agree.

In days yonder, drivers got chances as they were of the right nationality or fit at the time so on that basis you can add de Filippis but I still wouldnt class the likes of her and Williamson with the likes of Deletraz,Inoue and Amati. Maldonado's no Alonso or Vettel but he's no Mazzacane either.

Don't forget three years ago Grosjean, his new team mate, being thought of as a great prospect and potential winner would've been laughable.

Edited by Richard Jenkins, 01 December 2013 - 12:57.

[D-Type]

Can someone name one driver who didn't have to spend money to get into motor racing?  And spend more to further his career?  Ferenc Szicz, Christian Lautenschlager and Consalvo Sanesi perhaps, but no world champion from Farina and Fangio onwards!

[Sharman]

What is the difference between a 'pay driver' or one who benefits from direct family money or from a generous personal sponsor? What about the drivers who inspired sufficient confidence that somebody else sold them to sponsors? 

 

John Watson sold himself on ability and modest charm. He found people who found others to pay for the company name on his car. He was an F1 pay driver.

 

David Purley raced on LEC money; he was bloody good but raced on family wealth for years. 

 

Roger Williamson found a personal sponsor.

Precisely as you put it/

The difference is that a pay driver is one who believes he is good enough to be, (or might just have the desire to be) a Formula 1 driver and has the cash to make his dream come true, the other side of the coin is a driver who manages to persuade a sponsor that he is good enough to be a Formula 1 driver.

[kayemod]

 

The difference is that a pay driver is one who believes he is good enough to be, (or might just have the desire to be) a Formula 1 driver and has the cash to make his dream come true...

 

My definition of a pay driver is someone who is able to buy his way into a seat, where his apparent talent alone would never have achieved that. When I posed my original question, I was hoping that someone with better knowledge of F1 in the 50s, 60s & 70s, would come up with something like "That American guy Bob Ortoo helped the XXXX team stave off bankruptcy by giving them a few thousand, but he turned out to be really good and won lots of races for them, if they could have afforded it, they'd have been happy to pay him £XXXX to race for them, he was worth every penny." Nothing like that though, not even on a smaller scale?

 

I agree that Maldonado is some way from being the worst driver in F1, my reason for singling him out is that he wasn't anywhere near the the first choice for Lotus, only huge payments from his Venezuelan backers made them even consider him.

[Michael Ferner]

Can someone name one driver who didn't have to spend money to get into motor racing?  And spend more to further his career?  Ferenc Szicz, Christian Lautenschlager and Consalvo Sanesi perhaps, but no world champion from Farina and Fangio onwards!

It was said of Alain Prost, or maybe he said it himself in an interview once, that he didn't spend a single sou of his own money in all of his racing career. I have no way of knowing if that is, in fact, true, but it just may be right since he got started on winning one of those French scouting contests, if I'm not mistaken, and got promoted by Renault and Elf through their ladder programme afterwards.

As for pay drivers coming good, there was Niki Lauda, of course, but also the likes of Joe Boyer and Peter Kreis in America.

[jcbc3]

Peter Revson?

[john aston]

Sorry but this is  counting angels on the head of a pin territory. GP racing always is expensive and different people at different times are responsible for that expense.The fact that a driver has personally paid more or less, or his friend , team or sponsor has is just not worth considering. Nobody gets into GP racing without far more ability than most of us and all of them should be considered solely on their results. Maldonado should rightly attract unqualified praise for his win last season whoever is paying the bill.

Edited by john aston, 02 December 2013 - 08:14.

[jcbc3]

I don't know of anybody who says that Maldonado's win was fortuitous or undeserved. It was a masterful display.

 

What people are saying, is that they did not before that believe him capable of such a drive and subsequently they doubt it will happen again.

[D-Type]

I agree totally.  I believe that Ottorino Volontorio, Alex Yoong, Hector Rebaque, and a few others had more ability than most of us, but it is also true that they had significantly less ability than their peers and never stood a chance of a win.  As you rightfully point out, Pastor Maldono has won a GP so does not belong in the same category.

[2F-001]

I'm not sure I fully understand this thread, but I am pretty sure that Peter Revson doesn't belong in it.

His first part-season in GP was a bit of a false start, for whatever reason, but he subsequently won the Monaco F3 race (incidentally, a 'back-step' also made to some effect by Tom Pryce).
When Revson embarked on his first near-full season of 'F1', he was reigning CanAm champion - and skills were surely considered more 'transferable' in those times.
Though he had long departed from the European scene, did anyone really have 'modest expectations' of him? McLaren obviously rated him – yes, they had current, first-hand 'US knowledge' of him, but I don't recall any doubters at the time.

[Arjan de Roos]

Can someone name one driver who didn't have to spend money to get into motor racing?  And spend more to further his career?  Ferenc Szicz, Christian Lautenschlager and Consalvo Sanesi perhaps, but no world champion from Farina and Fangio onwards!

Alain Prost.

[Arjan de Roos]

Au contraire: I thought the tale of Niki juggling bank loans and inventing sponsors was quite well-known - he'd pulled a similar stunt at March, but this passage refers specifically to his initial deal with BRM:

http://8w.forix.com/lauda.html

Lauda arranged a meeting in Austria between Stanley and his contact at 'the Bank' whom he introduced as his 'sponsor' for 1973. Stanley did not speak German and the contact no English. Lauda managed also to 'convince' Lou that financially he was all right.

[Ray Bell]

I don't think Jim Clark spent much on getting up the ladder...

 

Nor, incidentally, have I ever heard much about Alan Jones getting a big 'leg-up' along the way. In fact, I would like to know what chain of events led to him making the grade.

 

Would Jackie Stewart have spent money on the way?

[kayemod]

I don't think Jim Clark spent much on getting up the ladder...

 

Nor, incidentally, have I ever heard much about Alan Jones getting a big 'leg-up' along the way. In fact, I would like to know what chain of events led to him making the grade.

 

Would Jackie Stewart have spent money on the way?

 

Also Denny Hulme, and probably Jack Brabham and Keke Rosberg as well

[alansart]

 

Nor, incidentally, have I ever heard much about Alan Jones getting a big 'leg-up' along the way. In fact, I would like to know what chain of events led to him making the grade.

 

 

I think Harry Stiller has posted on TNF in the past. He ran Alan Jones in F3 and IIRC Atlantic and a Hesketh in F1 so he may have some info about the few years before Jones hit the big time.

Edited by alansart, 02 December 2013 - 18:18.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Subject to confirmation by others on this board who would know better than I, I do recall reading somewhere...quite possibly right here on TNF...that Tom Pryce never owned any car he raced.

[king_crud]

 

Would Jackie Stewart have spent money on the way?

 

My understanding of Jackie's career is that he got his start racing a car for someone who visited the mechanics shop he was an apprentice in, who then funded the early days. Not sure if Jackie had much money before he made his name in F1. Very happy to be corrected as I don't claim to be an expert on JYS.

[MCS]

Subject to confirmation by others on this board who would know better than I, I do recall reading somewhere...quite possibly right here on TNF...that Tom Pryce never owned any car he raced.

 

I would say that is 100% true.

 

Alan's comments about Harry Stiller and Alan Jones are pertinent in that Jones really didn't know what he was going to do in 1974.  I know, because as a youngster I had the temerity - well, it felt very brave at the time! - to ask him in the Oulton Park paddock towards the end of the season.  Ultimately, he started his racing late in 1974 with the bitsa Multiglide March - actually a 712M as I recall - subesequently replacing Bev Bond in Stiller's new March 74B.  The rest is history of course.

Edited by MCS, 03 December 2013 - 21:31.

[ensign14]

Andrea de Cesaris? His results never backed his genuine speed, he had close to no results prior F1, but hung around for +200 Grand Epreuves, took last Pole Positon for Alfa Romero, and possibly led last Grand Prix Alfa Romero did as a team.

 

 

De Cesaris was normally a liability in the car and was helped by his dad being a leading Marlboro light (so to speak), but his 1992 season was generally splendid.

 

Kamui Kobayashi did a lot better than I expected.  I never really rated him, but thought he would be an embarrassment in the top flight.  He showed he was at least worthy of a drive.  Suffered from the Hamilton Problem though - the magic button replaced his ability to pull off insane overtaking moves. 

[ensign14]

I dunno, he never spent more than 2 seasons with a team, and even on one of those rare occasions when he was re-signed he was sacked before the second year was out.  And was replaced by a rookie who scored a podium.

[Richard Jenkins]

When I posed my original question, I was hoping that someone with better knowledge of F1 in the 50s, 60s & 70s, would come up with something like "That American guy Bob Ortoo helped the XXXX team stave off bankruptcy by giving them a few thousand, but he turned out to be really good and won lots of races for them, if they could have afforded it, they'd have been happy to pay him £XXXX to race for them, he was worth every penny." Nothing like that though, not even on a smaller scale?

 

 

 

Whilst reading Peter Higham's Encyclopedia of Racing Drivers, it reminded me that Henri Pescarolo, who is no slouch, of course, got the Williams seat in 1971 largely due to backing from Motul. He finished 4th in the British Grand Prix and it's likely that wad of cash from Motul went a long way towards keeping Williams afloat. But it seems harsh to call Pescarolo a pay driver.

[LotusElise]

I always wonder when drivers, or their families and spokespeople, claim to have got where they were without pre-existing wealth of some sort. There is a certain amount of disingenuousness about backgrounds that goes on. I understand why - British people in particular tend to be scornful of those who haven't battled lots of odds, or been seen to battle them. A story of an, erm, hypothetical Brummie factory worker who sold everything he owned, or a hardworking dad sacrificing all for his son's karting career, gets so much more mileage than an upper-middle-class person who has always had at least some of the resources to train and prepare for a decent motorsport career.

 

I'm not saying they are all lying, far from it. The press does more to perpetuate myths and mystique than anything else. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

[charles r]

Let's hope for Williams sake that Sirotkin falls into this category...

[Rupertlt1]

F1 drivers who confounded modest expectations: Damon Hill.

 

RGDS RLT

[Dave Ware]

Jackie Stewart has said that he never owned any racing car he drove.  Barry Filer was the customer at the Stewart's garage/gas station who gave JYS his first ride, I believe in a Porsche at an autocross.  I don't recall ever reading anything about how JYS's racing expenses were paid for.  We do know the cash didn't come from his Mum.