41 replies to this topic

[GMiranda]

Hello

 

While I am putting data on my files about the motorsport drivers, a nomenclature question arised - many times, the engines of the 60/70/80's are called Cosworth, as they were the DFV or their variants, and called Ford since 89/90, with the HB, Zetec and so on. I knwo Ford and Cosworth had a partnership since 1967 in F1, so how's the best way to refer th the engines on the DB?

[Glengavel]

Cosworth.

[Charlieman]

Record information in multiple fields. If the engine is a DFV or any distinct model, record that bit of data separately. Use other fields to record further information, such as branding or variation from standard. Use free text fields liberally.

 

Information from entrant records might state that the engine was officially from Ford (or Cosworth). Event programme entries and race reports might suggest that the car had engines from two suppliers over the weekend. Contemporary photos might contradict all reported information -- a Ford entry with Cosworth cam covers.

 

Some F1 cars were sponsored by Ford. Jackie Stewart won races in a Ford powered Tyrrell, not a Cosworth engined model. So Tyrrell-Ford was the brand for 1972 and 1973. I do not know the deal for 1974 or 1981.

 

This is how history works. History is as clear as mud and the role of a historian is to collect small nuggets which might be assembled into a narrative.

[Lee Nicolle]

The DFV was made by Cosworth and I feel at one time was financed at least in part by Ford. That is an all out racing engine. And a very succesful one.
Zetec, Cosworth 'tuned' Kent engines though are Ford production engines tuned and prepared by Cosworth, and others, for various motorsport categories

[Ray Bell]

Initial funding in the sum of £100,000 was provided by Ford...

 

I have no doubt Cosworth had already done some mock-up cylinder head trials before that, however, and they smartly produced the FVA with the Ford 4-cyl block to 'race trial' their head design.

 

I'll let others comment on the Zetec thing, as that name was also applied to a later F1 engine they did. Perhaps Cosworth was owned by Ford by that time?

[Roger Clark]

Ford bought Cosworth Racing in 1998.l  The road car engine division went to VW/Audi and later Mahle.

[D-Type]

I don't understand the issue

 

The Cosworth-designed FVA and DFV were funded by Ford.

 

As I understand it:

The FVA was sold as a Cosworth engine so Jackie Ickx drove a Formula 2 Matra-Cosworth or Formula 2 Matra-Cosworth ballasted to qualify as a Formula 1 car in his early Nurburgring races.

The DFV was branded as a Ford engine so a DFV is correctly described as a Ford.

The DFV-derived F1 engines, DFX, DFZ, and DFR are also Fords

The DFL long distance engine and the DFW 'Tasman' engine are also Fords

but the Indianapolis DFX and DFS were branded as Cosworth

Likewise, the later HB and ED V8s, the Zetec-R V10 and the turbocharged TEC V6 are also Fords although developed by Cosworth.

 

So, in your database they should all be  Ford except the FVA. 

 

In the case of Williams, because of their Saudi Arabian sponsors and Saudi Arabia having a sanctions policy against Ford for having dealings with Israel, the team put 'Cosworth' cam covers from the indianapolis DFX on their engines (until Ford spotted it).  So these are also Ford engines, notwithstanding any photographic evidence to the contrary. 

 

A coterie of motor racing writers headed by Denis Jenkinson (DSJ of Motor Sport) felt that credit should be given to the engineering behind an engine rather than the funding and insisted on describing the DFV and derivatives as 'Cosworth' engines.  But they should still be listed in a database as 'Ford'.

 

Similar questions will apply with other makers - Where a production engine was developed: Conrero & Alfa Romeo, Simca & Gordini, Lea Francis and Connaught.  Another nproblem is  Lancia and Ferrari where Ferrari took over the Lancia racing efforts.  Then there are Mugen & Honda, Megatron & BMW, Mecachrome & Renault and the other cases where an engine was rebranded.

 

This all illustrates clearly why every database should include an "Explanatory Notes" column for the cases that can't be neatly pigeonholed.

Edited by D-Type, 01 December 2013 - 20:42.

[Michael Ferner]

There never was an F1 engine by the name of Cosworth, only the DFX Indycar unit. If you call a Ford DFV a Cosworth, then you should delete the name Ferrari from your engine data base, and call them Colombo, Lampredi, Rocchi etc., else you just confuse matters.

[Roger Clark]

I don't understand the issue

 

The Cosworth-designed FVA and DFV were funded by Ford.

 

As I understand it:

The FVA was sold as a Cosworth engine so Jackie Ickx drove a Formula 2 Brabham-Cosworth or Formula 2 Brabham-Cosworth ballasted to qualify as a Formula 1 car.

The DFV was branded as a Ford engine so a DFV is correctly described as a Ford.

The DFV-derived F1 engines, DFX, DFZ, and DFR are also Fords

The DFL long distance engine and the DFW 'Tasman' engine iare also Fords

but the Indianapolis DFX and DFS were branded as Cosworth

Likewise, the later HB and ED V8s, the Zetec-R V10 and the turbocharged TEC V6 are also Fords although developed by Cosworth.

 

So, in your database they should all be  Ford except the FVA. 

 

 

 

The FVA, of course, had a Ford block (as required by the regulations) so arguably had the greatest right to include Ford in its name.

[Roger Clark]

There never was an F1 engine by the name of Cosworth, only the DFX Indycar unit. If you call a Ford DFV a Cosworth, then you should delete the name Ferrari from your engine data base, and call them Colombo, Lampredi, Rocchi etc., else you just confuse matters.

If we followed the argument in your last sentence, wouldn't we call the DFV a Duckworth?  I don't think anybody has suggested that.  

 

I think that most people here would refer to a Lotus 72 rather than a John Player Special, so should similar criteria apply to engines?  I think the most important thing is to give Ford and Cosworth credit for their different contributions; how you do that is up to you.

[Ray Bell]

"Funded by Ford?"

 

It would be more correct to say that "Ford bought the naming rights," as I see it. There would have been more 'funding' in the project than the money from Ford.

[Lee Nicolle]

There never was an F1 engine by the name of Cosworth, only the DFX Indycar unit. If you call a Ford DFV a Cosworth, then you should delete the name Ferrari from your engine data base, and call them Colombo, Lampredi, Rocchi etc., else you just confuse matters.

Read the cam covers of some of those engines,, Ford Cosworth! Made by Cosworth Engineering.

[D-Type]

I googled DFV pictures and they all show either the one word "FORD" or "Ford" on the cam covers. Unless the "Ford Cosworth - Made by Cosworth" is in miniscule letters as well.

[seldo]

"Funded by Ford?"

 

It would be more correct to say that "Ford bought the naming rights," as I see it. There would have been more 'funding' in the project than the money from Ford.

I seem to recall that at the time of Ford's purchase ? of the company that it was done so basically on the rationale that that was the only way they could force the describing of various cars as Lotus Ford, Williams Ford etc in lieu of xxxxx Cosworth

[Ray Bell]

Wasn't it also involved with their purchase of Jaguar?

 

And didn't Williams have specific Cosworth cam covers in their Leyland-sponsored era?

[Allan Lupton]

In relatively recent times a quite successful engine also developed in Northamptonshire, but by Ilmor in Brixworth, was branded Mercédès. I don't remember anyone referring to it under the actual maker's name.

[D-Type]

Wasn't it also involved with their purchase of Jaguar?

 

And didn't Williams have specific Cosworth cam covers in their Leyland-sponsored era?

At the same time as their Leyland sponsorship Williams had a lot of sponsorship from Saudi Arabian companies (ie in the late 70s and first part of the 80s).  At the time, Saudi Arabia were imposing sanctions on Ford (and other companies) as they were trading in Israel.  Williams therefore replaced the "Ford" branded cam covers on their DFVs with "Cosworth" branded ones to please their sponsors.  I remember reading that these came from DFXs but could they have have been from an FVA which possibly would also fit as the FVA was "half a DFV"?

 

I think I read that when Ford noticed they insisted that Williams revert to the correct "Ford" branded items, which meant that Williams had to keep the engine covers on in the presence of their major sponsors (if Ford were around).

[Ray Bell]

The FVA and DFV cam covers were in no way alike...

 

Interesting about the Israel trade connection.

[arttidesco]

Hello

 

While I am putting data on my files about the motorsport drivers, a nomenclature question arised - many times, the engines of the 60/70/80's are called Cosworth, as they were the DFV or their variants, and called Ford since 89/90, with the HB, Zetec and so on. I knwo Ford and Cosworth had a partnership since 1967 in F1, so how's the best way to refer th the engines on the DB?

 

In my 1973 Race of Champions entry list all of the DFV powered cars are listed as "xxxxx Ford", among the interesting manufacturers listed are John Player Special and Iso Marlboro. In MotorSport's report on the same race written by A.R.M. the DFV's are referred to as Cosworth's, the John Player Specials as Lotus and Iso Marlboro's as Williams so take your pick do you want to credit the sponsor Ford, the engineering company Cosworth, or both Ford Cosworth ?

[arttidesco]

I googled DFV pictures and they all show either the one word "FORD" or "Ford" on the cam covers. Unless the "Ford Cosworth - Made by Cosworth" is in miniscule letters as well.

 

So did I and found this ;-)

[Roger Clark]

In relatively recent times a quite successful engine also developed in Northamptonshire, but by Ilmor in Brixworth, was branded Mercédès. I don't remember anyone referring to it under the actual maker's name.

Mercedes bought and renamed Ilmor didn't they?

[Roger Clark]

Wasn't it also involved with their purchase of Jaguar?

When they bought and renamed the Stewart F1 team, not when they bought Jaguar, I think.  As I said earlier, Ford bought Cosworth in 1998, well after the DFV era.

[B Squared]

but the Indianapolis DFX and DFS were branded as Cosworth

Most of the time they were. This is a photo that shows Bobby Unser in the, I believe, Lockheed wind tunnel with the 1979 Penske PC7 and Ford badging. I've seen a couple of other sets for late 1970s-early '80s spec Cosworth Indy Car engines with Ford logos also.

[Allan Lupton]

Mercedes bought and renamed Ilmor didn't they?

Yes but only in 2002 after Paul Morgan's death.

However, I seem to recall championships in 1998 and 1999

[D-Type]

So did I and found this ;-)

Maybe its a Williams engine, a DFX, one of the modern continuation engines or a 'bitsa'.  But it still does not say "Ford Cosworth - Made by Cosworth".

 

Incidentally, does anybody know if new engines produced for Formula 3000 were branded as "Ford" or "Cosworth"

[Peter Morley]

Incidentally, does anybody know if new engines produced for Formula 3000 were branded as "Ford" or "Cosworth"

 

Don't know about all of them but some said Ford - the later version with Ford in an oval.

 

[Tony Matthews]

Ilmor built several Chevrolet Indy engines, almost built a Buick, a Leyton House V10 and then Mercedes', with one or two Ilmors in between. 

[arttidesco]

Don't know about all of them but some said Ford - the later version with Ford in an oval.

 

Some Ford ovals appearing on cam covers can be seen on this website, new to me right at the bottom of the link is the DFV with Yamaha 5 valve head !!! Would that be the same Yamaha as in motorcycles ? 

[ChrisJson]

 Would that be the same Yamaha as in motorcycles ? 

 

Yes and the same as in grand pianos, electric organs and drums!

 

And as in receivers and speakers!

Edited by ChrisJson, 02 December 2013 - 22:17.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Fabulous link to Cosworth data there, arttidesco.  TY for posting.

 

PS: Pssst...  Do check the other volumes on this link, too, chaps.  Terrific stuff! 

[Peter Morley]

new to me right at the bottom of the link is the DFV with Yamaha 5 valve head !!! Would that be the same Yamaha as in motorcycles ?

I think they were actually developed by Judd in the UK?

[Peter Morley]

BTW the photo on the Japanese website (near the top of the page) showing a DFV with the oval Ford logo together with Mike Costin, Keith Duckworth & Walter Hayes is DFV number 400 which was bought by Albert Obrist for Mario Hytten to use in his F3000 around 1986.

[PeterElleray]

BTW the photo on the Japanese website (near the top of the page) showing a DFV with the oval Ford logo together with Mike Costin, Keith Duckworth & Walter Hayes is DFV number 400 which was bought by Albert Obrist for Mario Hytten to use in his F3000 around 1986.

 the gentleman on the left in that group looks a lot more like Heine Mader, who was rebuilding DFV's in that era (post BMW Turbo), rather than Mike Costin. Was this picture taken to record the signing of some deal or other connected with that?

 

Peter

[Bob Riebe]

The DFV was made by Cosworth and I feel at one time was financed at least in part by Ford. That is an all out racing engine. And a very succesful one.
Zetec, Cosworth 'tuned' Kent engines though are Ford production engines tuned and prepared by Cosworth, and others, for various motorsport categories

Ford money financed, influenced and made the  DFV the engine it was.

 

Without Ford it would hav been an entirely different scenario, that is why it was called a Ford Cosworth DFV.

[Ray Bell]

I don't see how you can say that...

 

Ford money undoubtedly helped bring it to fruition sooner, but it was the success of the designers in hitting the right notes in the opera that made it such a success. The same Ford money could just as easily have financed a dud.

[Michael Ferner]

If we followed the argument in your last sentence, wouldn't we call the DFV a Duckworth?  I don't think anybody has suggested that.

You can't be serious!!!!????

[David McKinney]

He does say "if"...

[Peter Morley]

the gentleman on the left in that group looks a lot more like Heine Mader, who was rebuilding DFV's in that era (post BMW Turbo), rather than Mike Costin. Was this picture taken to record the signing of some deal or other connected with that?
 
Peter

I shouldn't have believed the caption writer....

Heini Mader looked after the engine for Obrist, so was presumably there to collect it.

Cosworth did make some fuss/publicity about the fact they had made 400 DFVs and I assume the photo was taken when it was being handed over.

 

The engine was sold at a recent Le-Mans Classic auction, without injection, where it was described as a mechanical injection DFV (which it never was) and with 2,500km of mileage left which sounded rather optimistic!

[Bob Riebe]

One reason some Indy engines did not have Ford on the cam covers was when Henry Ford II decided Ford was out of racing, he told the people turning the DFV into an Indy engine, to get his name off of the cam covers or suffer for not doing it.

 

Obviously Ford eventually got back intot he game and I do not know how seriously all racers took the threat.

[ray b]

there was the ford v8 indy motor from 64 that predated the cosworth

in fact the ford [dearborn] was used by bruce in a early mac F-1 car

 

http://www.quadcamfo...evelopment.html

 

those dearborn fords lived on in turbo/reduced displacement form into the late 70's

when they were replaced by the turbo cosworths v8's descended from the F-1 motors

 

I suspect the different names were used to denote the new cosworth turbo's v8's from the older dearborn fords at indy

[PeterElleray]

there was the ford v8 indy motor from 64 that predated the cosworth

in fact the ford [dearborn] was used by bruce in a early mac F-1 car

 

http://www.quadcamfo...evelopment.html

 

those dearborn fords lived on in turbo/reduced displacement form into the late 70's

when they were replaced by the turbo cosworths v8's descended from the F-1 motors

 

I suspect the different names were used to denote the new cosworth turbo's v8's from the older dearborn fords at indy

well yes...

 

it's well known that the rights to the  'american v8' were purchased by AJ Foyt and the engines rebadges as 'Foyt's', whilst, as we have just seen above, the Cosworth designed v8 was usually badged as a .... Cosworth.

 

Peter

Edited by PeterElleray, 05 December 2013 - 00:31.

[RCH]

Does it matter? Surely everyone involved here knows the story of Cosworth and Ford and what is clear is that at various times for commercial considerations engines built by Cosworth were known as something else. That was then, those considerations probably don't apply now but the engines were still built by Cosworth so why should they be called anything else?