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McLaren MP4-29


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#4001 ballow

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 11:55

We're starting to feel like Williams, the next few months/years are going to be critical.



I said to my buddy last year that McLaren are going to be like Williams. I guess we have to see what Honda and Prodromou can do. I wont raise my hopes up though. I think they are due at least 5 years before they start thinking wins e.t.c

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#4002 MikeMM

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 11:56

This is his car. I say get rid of the car and all his memory. Fresh start for 2015

This was his car up until first test. And Mclaren was second fastest team on that test.

Since than its Rons and Erics car and under their leadership the car didnt improve a bit.

Despite Rons famous 0.5 sec improvement promise.


Edited by MikeMM, 20 April 2014 - 11:57.


#4003 Timstr11

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 12:25

 

"We have some upgrades but we're a lot further behind than we were at the last race," Button said.

"We're maxed out on everything on the car. We're very, very high on front wing, higher than ever before. It's all very strange."

Interesting quote from Jenson saying they'e maxed out on front wing angle.

 

http://www.bbc.com/s...rmula1/27093792


Edited by Timstr11, 20 April 2014 - 12:26.


#4004 Treads

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 13:07

Don't panic, guys. This result fully expected. We are as far back as we were in Malaysia, this shouldn't be a surprise. 

 

Car is crap in high-speed turns and got killed through these turns just as predicted. 

 

The Barcelona GP will be a painful one - sadly I am going to that one - unless a crazy big update package can transform the car in the high speed stuff. If not, at least the good low-speed characteristics should move us closer to the front in Monaco etc. 



#4005 Treads

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 13:09

Interesting quote from Jenson saying they'e maxed out on front wing angle.

 

http://www.bbc.com/s...rmula1/27093792

 

Last year they had a big front downforce issue, I really don't understand this. The car never had a problem with front downforce before 2013, it was always the rear that was the issue. I cannot understand how the team can have forgotten how to get decent front downforce? 

 

Maybe the higher nose has caused them problems in this area?



#4006 study

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 13:18

Why is it that since 2008 McLaren don't have a clue have to design a F1 car, the 2009 thing was amazing that they was directing wing flow wrong when rival engineers could see what the problem was but they couldn't, since then they've had a round of gimics.

 

Come back Pedro and get testing



#4007 WitnessX

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 14:07

Last year they had a big front downforce issue, I really don't understand this. The car never had a problem with front downforce before 2013, it was always the rear that was the issue. I cannot understand how the team can have forgotten how to get decent front downforce? 
 
Maybe the higher nose has caused them problems in this area?

I'm just wondering if part of the fast/flowing corner problem is the front wing. No doubt they have tuned it to optimise the efficiency down straights, it maybe to the detriment of the corners.

The other problem could be that the front wing is conditioning the flows around the front tyres so that there is more of a cooling effect.

Also from a "heat" point of view it would be worth checking the heat transfer from the brakes, since it was cold and there is not much braking (ie. were the brakes overcooled).

But these are typical problems you encounter when you have a new chassis and it's still an unknown quantity. Other cars which are evolved from last years chassis will have an advantage in this respect.

Edited by WitnessX, 20 April 2014 - 14:07.


#4008 sanchez854

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 14:28

http://www1.skysport...utside-of-court

 

"Obviously it's very easy for McLaren to be drawing focus away from their bigger issues - I mean it's obvious why they're looking for aerodynamicists," Horner added.

 

 

 How wonderfull is that ? Horner is making jokes about us and he is right



#4009 MirNyet

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 14:28

They're maxed out as putting more wing on the front would put the car into bad over steer and destroy its balance. Button cannot handle a car with bad over steer.

 

It globally acknowledged that the car needs more down force - why the shock and horror when this is shown on the track? From day one a ton of people were commenting on the fat rear end bodywork - and it turns out McLaren overcooked the cooling. This will take time to correct - but just as Force India has, they will have a new rear on the car very soon that addresses the airflow and hopefully bolts on more down force.

 

Until then, just going to have to grin and bare it.    



#4010 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 14:36

This car is really bad, even worse than the MP4-28 I'll say. If it wasn't for the Mercedes engine, they would be fighting the slow Saubers. :|



#4011 ERICTOPF1

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 14:36

http://www1.skysport...utside-of-court

 

"Obviously it's very easy for McLaren to be drawing focus away from their bigger issues - I mean it's obvious why they're looking for aerodynamicists," Horner added.

 

 

 How wonderfull is that ? Horner is making jokes about us and he is right

 

Better look his own house. Last month his boss was implying they were looking for an engine supplier.

 

Words of a lesser man in my book...



#4012 Requin

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 15:00

Better look his own house. Last month his boss was implying they were looking for an engine supplier.

 

Words of a lesser man in my book...

 

Maybe not the classiest thing Horner has said, but that doesn't mean he is wrong.



#4013 ERICTOPF1

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 15:06

Maybe not the classiest thing Horner has said, but that doesn't mean he is wrong.

 

Of course he is not wrong.But  every team tries to improve its weaknesses.

 

Just as McLaren looks for aerodymamicists  RB looks for engines.

 

That is why his comment is so lame for me..

 

Maybe in a couple of years when RB might look for Honda engines we'll see how it feels..


Edited by ERICTOPF1, 20 April 2014 - 15:06.


#4014 race addicted

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 15:08

I was a bit surprised to learn that they didn't have the new, slimmer engine-cover for this weekend. A bit simplified to say, but the bulky one they have obviously isn't the best.

It's just not good enough from McLaren, being the slowest team with the PU they have. Their budget is often overplayed, but it is bigger than Force India and Williams, no doubt, but these two started off with a car roughly as good, but are now faster....



#4015 f1rules

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 15:24

http://www1.skysport...utside-of-court

 

"Obviously it's very easy for McLaren to be drawing focus away from their bigger issues - I mean it's obvious why they're looking for aerodynamicists," Horner added.

 

 

 How wonderfull is that ? Horner is making jokes about us and he is right

 

:rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:  lol Ron really pissed up the wrong tree and it hit him back ahahaha, sad but true what Horner said about needing aerodynamicists


Edited by f1rules, 20 April 2014 - 15:46.


#4016 damager21

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 15:45

I heard it was a brilliant race for us today.  :clap: After finishing 2nd & 3rd in Australia we managed 2nd & 4th today. Just goes to show the 0.5 sec gain that Ron spoke about and the improvement in drivability that drivers mentioned. It seems like all bits and pieces are coming together and its making a huge difference. 

 

Oh! and the positions I am talking about is amongst lapped cars. After leading the constructors championship in Australia, we are now a respectable 5th position in the championship. Our drivers scored 0 points in the last 2 races.

 

To top it all, we are now behind Mercedes, Red Bull, Ferrari, Williams & Force India and going by today's pace I think we are also behind Toro Rosso and Lotus (Grosjean might have scored points today). 

 

Maybe McLaren should just focus on Tooned instead of racing  :up:



#4017 race addicted

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 15:45

Their priorities will, rightly, not be drivers. I've been (very) critical of Button at times, but he is a damn fast, and extremely good driver, unbeatable on his day. He says this car feels good, and he can do things with it, but it just isn't fast, and there's a difference there, vs how it was in 2012. So I don't think he'll take the development route in the wrong direction, 'cause they just need "general" improvements, I don't think this is about a driver talking of his "feel" for the front-end or how the car squirms under high-speed direction changes. They just need to make this car a little better, all over.

 

....and to continue on the driver-front; Magnussen is clearly very good too. His shine is paler now than it was after Melbourne, but only because he was able to climb so high in his first GP-weekend, which means he falls from a great height.



#4018 f1rules

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 15:48

get hulkenberg for next year as he seem the only one available, also it seems no matter where he has driven and in which shit car, he's got the most out of it



#4019 rodlamas

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 15:50

As I told you. The car went on a spiral downgrade and the team simply does not know why the car is slow.

 

When it's cold, they can't switch the fronts, even on a front limited track.

 

When it's hot,  they can't traction because they overheat the rears.

 

Same errors of 2009, expectation of general performance was too low and that's why this car is too slow even with a grenade on its back.



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#4020 RubalSher

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 15:50

I heard it was a brilliant race for us today.  :clap: After finishing 2nd & 3rd in Australia we managed 2nd & 4th today. Just goes to show the 0.5 sec gain that Ron spoke about and the improvement in drivability that drivers mentioned. It seems like all bits and pieces are coming together and its making a huge difference. 

 

Oh! and the positions I am talking about is amongst lapped cars. After leading the constructors championship in Australia, we are now a respectable 5th position in the championship. Our drivers scored 0 points in the last 2 races.

 

To top it all, we are now behind Mercedes, Red Bull, Ferrari, Williams & Force India and going by today's pace I think we are also behind Toro Rosso and Lotus (Grosjean might have scored points today). 

 

Maybe McLaren should just focus on Tooned instead of racing  :up:

 

That made me laugh, especially the last sentence :rotfl:

 

Edit: Easily the quote of the day!


Edited by RubalSher, 20 April 2014 - 15:51.


#4021 WitnessX

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 16:30

As I told you. The car went on a spiral downgrade and the team simply does not know why the car is slow.

 

When it's cold, they can't switch the fronts, even on a front limited track.

 

When it's hot,  they can't traction because they overheat the rears.

 

Same errors of 2009, expectation of general performance was too low and that's why this car is too slow even with a grenade on its back.

 

Of course they do. It's lacking downforce. They have been saying that since Australia. 

 

It was great in Australia, bad in Malaysia, good in Bahrain, terrible in China.  It's dependent on circuit characteristics and temperatures.

 

The question is what are they doing about it.



#4022 Lazy

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 16:35

I wonder if they weren't holding off on the aero until Fallows got there, sacked Budkowski and now have no-one to lead the team. 



#4023 MirNyet

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 16:44

Bodywork takes time to design, test and then make... Historically the teams get their first large upgrades in Spain. It is known that they have slimmed the rear end of the car down, they are obviously fast tracking the pieces (there was talk of them being at this race) but even fast tracked, progress takes time.

 

The car isn't lacking front down force - they're maxed out on how much wing they can run and keep the car balanced - very different thing. 



#4024 Timstr11

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 16:49

Bodywork takes time to design, test and then make... Historically the teams get their first large upgrades in Spain. It is known that they have slimmed the rear end of the car down, they are obviously fast tracking the pieces (there was talk of them being at this race) but even fast tracked, progress takes time.

 

The car isn't lacking front down force - they're maxed out on how much wing they can run and keep the car balanced - very different thing. 

I think it's more than just bodywork. 

I reckon they will revise the installation of the coolers as well, which is also a massive job.

 

I think it's quite possible they maxed out on the flap settings for this medium-to-high downforce aero configuration, meaning that a steeper angle would cause flow separation.


Edited by Timstr11, 20 April 2014 - 16:53.


#4025 peroa

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 16:53

I wonder if they weren't holding off on the aero until Fallows got there, sacked Budkowski and now have no-one to lead the team. 

That's not how it works, though.

There are surely +100 aero guys working on it, waiting for 1 person to join at the end of march is suicide.

However, I wouldn't put it past them...


Edited by peroa, 20 April 2014 - 16:54.


#4026 Lazy

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 17:34

That's not how it works, though.

There are surely +100 aero guys working on it, waiting for 1 person to join at the end of march is suicide.

However, I wouldn't put it past them...

I think he was supposed to join a bit before that.

 

The fact remains there has been practically no updates since testing began, that hasn't happened before, something is holding things up. Lack of aero head, new TP getting to know the place, Ron sticking his big oar in or whatever.



#4027 WitnessX

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 17:36

I wonder if they weren't holding off on the aero until Fallows got there, sacked Budkowski and now have no-one to lead the team. 

 

The thought does occur to me is if they can get Prodromou early (...and thats currently a possibility....) they could hold off on a 'B'  spec. of the car until he arrives, effectively making it a pre-spec for next years (a test mule for the aero).

 

Monaco and Canada should be ok, Barcelona has the nasty "aero" sector 1 which will cause problems but the rest should be ok.



#4028 ERICTOPF1

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 17:36

I think he was supposed to join a bit before that.

 

The fact remains there has been practically no updates since testing began, that hasn't happened before, something is holding things up. Lack of aero head, new TP getting to know the place, Ron sticking his big oar in or whatever

 

 

New nose and new FW is not "no updates", but surely there is still a lot to be done



#4029 Peter Perfect

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 17:49

I was a bit surprised to learn that they didn't have the new, slimmer engine-cover for this weekend. A bit simplified to say, but the bulky one they have obviously isn't the best.

It's just not good enough from McLaren, being the slowest team with the PU they have. Their budget is often overplayed, but it is bigger than Force India and Williams, no doubt, but these two started off with a car roughly as good, but are now faster....

 

I think that's my biggest concern. They finished the first test session of the year with a fast car relative to the opposition which was easy to understand from a set-up point of view and which was working just as the wind-tunnel predicted i.e. a great base going forwards. Since that point they've just not progressed. All I can guess is that either their rate of development is just nowhere near that required or they've decided to take a different aero direction and binned the planned updates.



#4030 MirNyet

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 17:50

Hi Timstr11,

 

Well, again, I think its a given that they need to rethink their intercooler solution along with the rest of the Mercedes customers. I read something a few days ago suggesting that the Mercedes customers would be getting more Turbo lag than the works team because of this. A smaller intercooler along with a revised internal layout could really make a difference to the aero concept for the rear of this car from the leading edge of the sidepod's back.

 

That's got to take time?



#4031 MinT

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 18:27

People going on about a huge update for Spain and a whole new back end are overlooking the quote from button where he says the updates for Spain will bring a couple of tenths only.......



#4032 charly0418

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 18:32

People going on about a huge update for Spain and a whole new back end are overlooking the quote from button where he says the updates for Spain will bring a couple of tenths only.......

 

That plus the fact that pretty much every team is bringing a good amout of upgrades. The key to that weekend however will be who makes them work and who doesnt



#4033 MirNyet

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 18:34

McLaren have more to gain relative to the teams around them, so sorting that backend out is likely to bring bigger gains and open up more development area's,



#4034 slmk

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 18:49

McLaren have more to gain relative to the teams around them, so sorting that backend out is likely to bring bigger gains and open up more development area's,

 

You mean, unlocking potential?



#4035 sopa

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 18:56

seems mclaren has been affected by the 'Williams syndrome'

 

Or the syndrome of being a legendary team. None of Ferrari, McLaren, Williams nor Lotus are in the constructors' top3, which consists of Mercedes, Red Bull and Force India.:p



#4036 sopa

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 18:58

You mean, unlocking potential?

 

Yep, that's life. There are always a handful of teams, who fight for wins and front-running results, while the rest of the teams are working on finding the keys to unlock the box of potential. However, usually the keys are missing, while the couple of teams in the first group are busy getting most of the wins all season.



#4037 Gintonious

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 18:58

That was all very 2013 today.



#4038 Nicktendo86

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 19:03

I think the question we need to ask is why are we so slow compared to to other merc customers? The aero of this car must be so incredibly poor, looking at some of the pics of the Mercedes it is so obvious what they are doing. Ultra tight rear, hot air exiting onto suspension which acts as a lower beam wing, front wing with massive outwash pushing air around the tyres, massive camera pods to direct airflow over the car. I am a total armchair expert here,I have no idea about aerodynamics, it even to me it is so obvious. I know merc had massive advantagea as they knew how to package the pu, but how the hell could the experts at McLaren get it so wrong?

Anyways that's me done for now, not much point going on about how shit this car is. Praying for big updates in spain, but I am not holding my breath.

Edited by Nicktendo86, 20 April 2014 - 19:04.


#4039 sopa

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 19:03

By the way, can anyone explain, what happened to McLaren's car design team between 2012 and 2013? In 2012 they had arguably the joint-fastest car, but since then haven't been capable of designing anything above midfield. I know Paddy Lowe left in late 2012, did anyone else? Lowe can't have had singlehandedly such a big effect on the drop of car design efficiency. Quite mindblowing - there must have been an absolutely sudden significant shift in the quality of the chassis design process. But what exactly triggered it and how it ended up like that, is still unclear to me.



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#4040 slmk

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 19:05

I think the question we need to ask is why are we so slow compared to to other merc customers? The aero of this car must be so incredibly poor, looking at some of the pics of the Mercedes it is so obvious what they are doing. Ultra tight rear, hot air exiting onto suspension which acts as a lower beam wing, front wing with massive outwash pushing air around the tyres, massive camera pods to direct airflow over the car. I am a total armchair expert here,I have no idea about aerodynamics, it even to me it is so obvious. I know merc had massive advantagea as they knew how to package the pu, but how the hell could the experts at McLaren get it so wrong?

Anyways that's me done for now, not much point going on about how shit this car is. Praying for big updates in spain, but I am not holding my breath.

 

Somewhere, a Martin Whitmarsh is sipping is $10m cocktail and laughing all the way to the bank.



#4041 Mart280

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 19:18

sopa, on 20 Apr 2014 - 19:56, said:

Or the syndrome of being a legendary team. None of Ferrari, McLaren, Williams nor Lotus are in the constructors' top3, which consists of Mercedes, Red Bull and Force India. :p

I'm sorry but the team from Enstone are nothing to do with the legendary Lotus, they really should stop calling themselves this, they have a bit of their own history as Benetton and Renault and in my view should call themselves Enstone F1, sorry for going off topic.


Edited by Mart280, 20 April 2014 - 19:18.


#4042 JRizzle86

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 19:30

http://www1.skysport...utside-of-court

 

"Obviously it's very easy for McLaren to be drawing focus away from their bigger issues - I mean it's obvious why they're looking for aerodynamicists," Horner added.

 

 

 How wonderfull is that ? Horner is making jokes about us and he is right

To be fair Horner is currently being taken to court over certain aerodynamicists it and will in all likelihood lose.


Edited by JRizzle86, 20 April 2014 - 19:31.


#4043 peroa

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 19:32

I think that's my biggest concern. They finished the first test session of the year with a fast car relative to the opposition which was easy to understand from a set-up point of view and which was working just as the wind-tunnel predicted i.e. a great base going forwards. Since that point they've just not progressed. All I can guess is that either their rate of development is just nowhere near that required or they've decided to take a different aero direction and binned the planned updates.

The first test session was hardly representative of any teams competitiveness...



#4044 pathogen

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 19:55

get hulkenberg for next year as he seem the only one available, also it seems no matter where he has driven and in which shit car, he's got the most out of it

Hulkenberg? really? There is not a serious driver interested on this team. The young dane is  just a puppet in Dennis game and I am wonder if Honda people are repentant on his deal with Woking. I really miss the real McLaren Team...



#4045 amppatel

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 19:57

Surely Honda having only one team in 2015 and 2016 will be a massive disadvantage to McLaren? The more teams, the more data (much like Merc sharing data in pre season testing...)



#4046 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 19:59

Continued here: http://forums.autosp...mp4-29-part-ii/