151 replies to this topic

[DampMongoose]

Just read the article linked below, the naughty side of my brain wondered if you think that this really is about giving heavier drivers a break, or is it that Newey really wants the weight limit increased so that he can design a car with ballast where he wants it?  Plus they've already told Ricciardo that he needs to lose a few kilos...

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/111713

 

 

[Disgrace]

There's really nothing to discuss here.

[EthanM]

he probably wants to cheat

 

 

ps you should be more concerned about the 1 team blocking the weight limit increase rather than 1 of the 10 teams that support it, considering this is the first time there is an quite big penalty to not being a pint sized anorexic

[rasul]

Devious Design Issue, of course.

[bourbon]

No.  RBR will already have surplus in comparison to most teams, including Mercedes (the purported detractors).   Tall drivers like Hulk and Button have it hard.

[vista]

Because, again, Red Bull claim that rules must change in the interest of fairness (again; using a better reason in arguing than the original one). Obviously, it is because the new powertrain is too heavy for his design. But he won't say that to the media. I fully expect the rules to be changed at some point giving recent Red Bull political successes. I am also surprised Horner hasn't said anything about it yet.

Edited by vista, 03 December 2013 - 16:55.

[syolase]

Just read the article linked below, the naughty side of my brain wondered if you think that this really is about giving heavier drivers a break, or is it that Newey really wants the weight limit increased so that he can design a car with ballast where he wants it?  Plus they've already told Ricciardo that he needs to lose a few kilos...

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/111713

I think its more interesting that Merc is the only team who voted no.

[Frank Tuesday]

... considering this is the first time there is an quite big penalty to not being a pint sized anorexic

 

The minimum weight of a car including the driver is a fairly recent addition to the rule books (1995).  Before then, a driver who was 15kg heavier would have a 15kg weight penalty.  Now there isn't a weight penalty, just a small handling penalty from a less than optimal COG. 

Edited by Frank Tuesday, 03 December 2013 - 17:33.

[Zava]

I think its more interesting that Merc is the only team who voted no.

are we sure in that? even autosport is only putting it as "believed to be", no hard facts.

 

on the other hand, it was reported that on the brazil weekend, in a GPDA meeting (?) the drivers voted, and all bar Alonso and Massa was in for increasing the limit. why would the mercedes and the (then) ferrari drivers vote against their teams, while all the others voted the same as their teams?

[jonpollak]

The answer is Danica.
Jp

[JSDSKI]

DampMongoose has it: think more in terms of ballast and the freedom to move it around the chassis depending upon track and setup.....the more kilos between the regulated weight limit and their car's wet weight will provide a bigger advantage in shifting that mass about.  Which can be very helpful when trying to sync center of aero pressure and center of CG.

 

And of course their drivers health and competitive energy over the course of a race....

Edited by JSDSKI, 03 December 2013 - 18:10.

[Atreiu]

The answer is Danica.
Jp

 

Don't you mean Pedrosa?

[SpaMaster]

Obviously the latter. That said, Newey is among the nicest guys in motorsport. It is just his way of saying the car weight needs to be increased, that's all.

[jonpollak]

Same difference Atrelu

Jp

[Nonesuch]

Is Newey worried because he thinks the current weight regulation will negatively affect Red Bull? Perhaps, but he is by no means the first to raise this issue, and apparently all but one of the other teams share his concern.

 

That said, I don't know how feasible or fair it is to change the rules at this late date.

[MikeV1987]

This issue was raised by other team bosses earlier this year, yet nobody seems to talk **** about them.

[f1RacingForever]

This team sure isn't shy about whining when things don't go there way. They were happy to be the one team not to agree to the RRA agreement but now they they could be faced with a disadvantage, everyone is supposed to bend the rules their way?? The arrogance of this team.

[Atreiu]

For the sake of it, whatever Red Bull ask for, do the opposite. If they still win, just give up entirely and have Newey banned.

[Timstr11]

Weight reduction is a big big chassis design target.

Why help RedBull, of all teams?

[Jackmancer]

I think it's too late to change maximum weight now.

[Timstr11]

I think it's too late to change maximum minimum weight now.

It's still possible if teams agree unanimously. Technically no problem as teams will just have to run more ballast.

[F1Champion]

I don't believe RB for a second. If they want something it is for an advantage. Daniel like Webber is a little too heavy. RB losing their advantage. The way RB campaigned for 'safe' tyres when they knew that their car chewed up the tyres and then got hard tyres and then dominated....it was all part of their plan.

[MikeV1987]

I don't believe RB for a second. If they want something it is for an advantage. Daniel like Webber is a little too heavy. RB losing their advantage. The way RB campaigned for 'safe' tyres when they knew that their car chewed up the tyres and then got hard tyres and then dominated....it was all part of their plan.

Was it part of their plan when the tires starting exploding at Silverstone?

[SebnandoKimilton]

They aren't the first to say it, all teams bar 1 are in agreement, some reporting its Mercedes, some Ferrari. In my opinion they are the "bad guys" here, not Red Bull. 

 

Wasn't it earlier this year they voiced concerns over the tyre safety & people shrugged it off as "liars trying to get an advantage", then Silverstone happened. 

[GlenP]

What a load of crap you guys slagging Red Bull. And ill-informed crap at that. Weight distribution is mandated anyway, so it has nothing to do with ballast. Plus Red Bull are the most advanced team in terms of design and build, so it is highly unlikely that they can't make the weight limit themselves. But they might struggle if they had Button or Hulk on their team.

[Timstr11]

What a load of crap you guys slagging Red Bull. And ill-informed crap at that. Weight distribution is mandated anyway, so it has nothing to do with ballast. Plus Red Bull are the most advanced team in terms of design and build, so it is highly unlikely that they can't make the weight limit themselves. But they might struggle if they had Button or Hulk on their team.

1) There remains some scope for weight distribution, within the fixed F/R distribution. 

2) Redbull do not design and build the powertrain, so they don't have much control over its weight.

[GlenP]

The scope is tiny. Slagging RBR is just sour grapes.

 

Other teams (bar one) are similarly concerned.

[Timstr11]

The scope is tiny. Slagging RBR is just sour grapes.

 

Other teams (bar one) are similarly concerned.

Weight is clearly a performance differentiator. No question about it. 

F1 is also about designing structures as light as possible. Those who do well will not moan, others will.

It's the same with aerodynamics and engine power etc. etc.

[Romulan]

"Adrian Newey all for Fair Play or Devious Design Issue?" - DampMongoose

 

Either or statements, black-and-white thinking and false choice questions are logical fallacies: Wikipedia

 

 

This team sure isn't shy about whining when things don't go there way. They were happy to be the one team not to agree to the RRA agreement but now they they could be faced with a disadvantage, everyone is supposed to bend the rules their way?? The arrogance of this team.

 

Every team lobbies to their benefit.  Why should Red Bull be any different?

 

For the sake of it, whatever Red Bull ask for, do the opposite. If they still win, just give up entirely and have Newey banned.

 

Nice!

 

Then Red Bull would have to start asking for the opposite of what they need.

 

[bourbon]

I hope the decision turns out to be whatever is most beneficial to Red Bull.

[tmzxaar]

I hope the decision turns out to be whatever is most beneficial to Red Bull.

I hope not.

[f1RacingForever]

"Adrian Newey all for Fair Play or Devious Design Issue?" - DampMongoose

 

Either or statements, black-and-white thinking and false choice questions are logical fallacies: Wikipedia

 

 

 

Every team lobbies to their benefit.  Why should Red Bull be any different?

 

 

Nice!

 

Then Red Bull would have to start asking for the opposite of what they need.

 

Redbull have every right to lobby if they want. But that doesn't mean they should. Why have they only made these comments now? Why not when they read the rules changes or knew daniel would drive for them? Could it be that now that newey has had more hands on time with the new engine and chassis, he's realized that it can be packaged they way he wants, and now has the perfect excuse to try and get what he wants? Given Redbulls history of pushing their own agenda and their own interests only, it's hard to take this as a real genuine concern for driver fairness

[MikeV1987]

Again, Newey and RBR aren't the only ones pushing for this. So they aren't the bad guys here.

[Donka]

The raise to 700 kilos is already agreed for 2015 and beyond, they're just asking for it to be in place for 2014 as well.  Seems logical.

[Clatter]

The raise to 700 kilos is already agreed for 2015 and beyond, they're just asking for it to be in place for 2014 as well.  Seems logical.

Is that official? I've only seen the rise to 690 from next year.

[Kingshark]

The fact that Newey/Red Bull are so concerned over this, yet Mercedes says no is quite interesting.

[Zava]

The fact that Newey/Red Bull are so concerned over this, yet Mercedes says no is quite interesting.

I'll ask the same as in post #9, why is this a fact?

[fabr68]

Simple physics. If you have the best aerodynic design, then making your competitors heavier it will only increase your advantage margin

[KingTiger]

With Red Bull it's never fair play. 

[Romulan]

Redbull have every right to lobby if they want. But that doesn't mean they should. Why have they only made these comments now? Why not when they read the rules changes or knew daniel would drive for them? Could it be that now that newey has had more hands on time with the new engine and chassis, he's realized that it can be packaged they way he wants, and now has the perfect excuse to try and get what he wants? Given Redbulls history of pushing their own agenda and their own interests only, it's hard to take this as a real genuine concern for driver fairness

 

In my opinion, as long as Red Bull does not create safety issues, they have an obligation to lobby for their benefit.  Timing, as you have pointed out, is critical.  The more time Adrian spends with the RB10, the more he understands what it takes to build a winner.

[Donka]

Is that official? I've only seen the rise to 690 from next year.

The article states so:

 

Efforts to bring forward a 10kg rise in the weight limit to 700kg, which has been agreed for 2015, have so far been thwarted by opposition from one team - believed to be Mercedes - because unanimous support is required to make the change now

[f1RacingForever]

In my opinion, as long as Red Bull does not create safety issues, they have an obligation to lobby for their benefit.  Timing, as you have pointed out, is critical.  The more time Adrian spends with the RB10, the more he understands what it takes to build a winner.

So you would rather a team lobbied to get rules that suit their car rather than just getting on with it? Imagine if everyone played that game. What a sh#$ storm that would be. Please tell me you aren't serious.

[Mrluke]

So you would rather a team lobbied to get rules that suit their car rather than just getting on with it? Imagine if everyone played that game. What a sh#$ storm that would be. Please tell me you aren't serious.

They do, They are, It is, please tell me you didnt just realise this..

[SebnandoKimilton]

So you would rather a team lobbied to get rules that suit their car rather than just getting on with it? Imagine if everyone played that game. What a sh#$ storm that would be. Please tell me you aren't serious.

You realise that only one team has said no to this?

 

So going by what you have said 10 teams are lobbying for change & 1 team isn't. 

 

So by your logic everyone is playing "that game"

[Romulan]

So you would rather a team lobbied to get rules that suit their car rather than just getting on with it? Imagine if everyone played that game. What a sh#$ storm that would be. Please tell me you aren't serious.

 

Successful teams are intellectually deep enough to (simultaneously) deal with all aspects of the game.

[JSDSKI]

Was it part of their plan when the tires starting exploding at Silverstone?

 

Nope.

 

The tire issue just provided a solution to their problems earlier in the season... like how to control tire wear and aero flow over and around the tires as they were loaded.  They did what all competitors do when they see or feel a potential advantage.  They used it.

 

I suppose someone could start a thread for arguments about the seasons results if the 2013 tires did not have problems.  That might have been a more interesting season.

Edited by JSDSKI, 03 December 2013 - 22:43.

[Lemans]

My guess is McLaren will soon know the real reason redbull are asking, courtesy of Prodromou and Fallows.

[st99]

Wow, the season hasn't even started and there're already claims that Red Bull is cheating or trying to cheat! This has to be a new record 

 

Just to follow the trend: Vettel with traction control in Suzuka http://www.youtube.c...h?v=e3YyQ17TwtA 

[Shambolic]

The FIA could just rule that driver + seat combined must weigh no less than 95kg (or suitably higher/ lower, as long as it allows for drivers of healthy weight and non dwarf stature), and a seat must have a centre of gravity no lower than x above its mounts.

 

But that would be too simple.

 

It's a bit like the minimum weight increase so teams could beef up the suspension after 94 - Does anyone think for a moment the extra weight went into sturdier components and not more optimum ballast placement?

[senna da silva]

F1 cars are too heavy already, make the regulation 500Kg and lets bring back some material science and innovation to the Formula. The safety regs will protect the drivers.