117 replies to this topic

[KiloWatt]

Yawn, yes, another engine thread.  But I was wondering about something:  if you had to choose between nicer sounding engines or louder engines (but not neccesarily a nice sound) which would you choose?  Ideally, one would like both, I know.  But if you absolutely HAVE to choose.

 

By now, you'd have realised that I have hidden motives behind this thread.  I have no doubt that the V6s of next year will be somewhat softer (in volume) than the current V8s.  With less power, there's no other way.  But, I do think they will sound a lot nicer.

 

What got me thinking about this, was when I went to some drag races a few years back, I heard some youths that modified I4s that were deafening.  But there was another chap with an I6 BMW, which although softer (and likely less powerfull), sounded so much nicer.

 

But ofcourse it's matter of scale - something that sounds a little bit worse but somewhat louder may on balance appeal more.  It is my opinion however the V6s will sound a whole lot nicer than the current V8s (which never really appealed to my all that much to begin with), even though they won't be as loud.

 

So if you had to choose between extremes, I would still go for the nicer sounding engine (if it isn't way to soft).

[Zava]

ask Kimi and Fisi. 

[Slartibartfast]

I prefer quality over quantity.

[eronrules]

add this option to the poll ...

 

 

 '' i don't ****ing care about noise as long as the racing is good ''

 

 

then i'll vote. 

[Seanspeed]

These things are measured(objectively or subjectively) in degrees, or a sliding scale if you were. 

 

So how 'nice/not nice' are we talking?  How loud/quiet?  If we all agree we want both, then its just a matter of what proportion of each we would find acceptable still. 

 

For instance, if I could get the sound of the 3.5L V10, but it was only as loud as a lawnmower, then that's probably not a balance I'd find acceptable.  Or if I could get the volume of that V10, but it sounded like a lawnmower.  Also not acceptable. 

[EthanM]

define "nice" and "loud"

 

as a kid I was f1 aware but not really a fan. I became a fan one afternoon in May of 1992, which by the way was a super boring season in sporting terms, but I happened to be standing on a balcony on Avenue Princess Grace near where the Grimaldi forum is and I could hear (not see) the cars going around Portier and into the tunnel. And back then you had V12s. Would 2014 engines hit me the same way? Doubt it

[KiloWatt]

These things are measured(objectively or subjectively) in degrees, or a sliding scale if you were. 
 
So how 'nice/not nice' are we talking?  How loud/quiet?  If we all agree we want both, then its just a matter of what proportion of each we would find acceptable still. 
 
For instance, if I could get the sound of the 3.5L V10, but it was only as loud as a lawnmower, then that's probably not a balance I'd find acceptable.  Or if I could get the volume of that V10, but it sounded like a lawnmower.  Also not acceptable.

Yeah I realise the question is a bit open. I had in mind something thats close enough in loudness and "nice-ness" to be comparable but far enough apart to make a difference. I did pose the OP question on the background of the engine change, but the question itself is more generic - so don't focus on the rule change too much.
 

define "nice" and "loud"
 
as a kid I was f1 aware but not really a fan. I became a fan one afternoon in May of 1992, which by the way was a super boring season in sporting terms, but I happened to be standing on a balcony on Avenue Princess Grace near where the Grimaldi forum is and I could hear (not see) the cars going around Portier and into the tunnel. And back then you had V12s. Would 2014 engines hit me the same way? Doubt it

How powerfull and loud were the 1992 engines? Will the V6s not be nearly as powerfull? I'm still convinced that if your at the track, you'll still need ear protection and won't be able to shout over them. But I don't know...

[Jon83]

I have only heard the V8s (Monza 2010 and 2011) and loved the sound.

 

The 'loudness' of them was a major part of that.

[Scotracer]

Why not both?

 

The 1995-2005 V10s sounded both nicer AND louder than the V8s and most definitely than the V6s next year.

[Henri Greuter]

Voted nicer. But that is because I have something of a hearing problem and can't tolerate loud engines without becoming ill from a splitting headache and worse from then on.

As for the need and the consequences of racing cars with loud engines: Ask Butch Leitzinger.....


Henri

[jjcale]

Louder!!!

[KiloWatt]

Why not both?
 
The 1995-2005 V10s sounded both nicer AND louder than the V8s and most definitely than the V6s next year.

It wasn't really the question, was it now? We'd all like to have that, it's not going to happen.

[billm99uk]

Nicer, but then I've a dodgy ear which just gives me feedback noise when it's too loud. As long as they don't sound like the old GP3 engine (the "farting camel" as I used to call it) I'm fine really.

Edited by billm99uk, 05 December 2013 - 13:42.

[chipmcdonald]

"Nice" is completely subjective.

Loud is not.

 

The sound should match the drapes.  Or.. er... something like that.

 

I prefer impressive in RACE CARS.  I want to hear the cars leave the pits a mile away.  I want them to sound like the apocalypse approaching at 200 mph.  That is neat to me. 

 

I have friends that have very neat sounding Ducatis, Suzukis, Buells... BMWs with racing exhausts, muscle cars...  That sound very nice.  Plunk them out next to a 2013 V8, you no longer think "nice", you think "wow", big difference. 

 

F1 has a lot of competition entertainment wise for "wow" these days.  And you don't need anything more elaborate than a kart if you only care about racing.  MotoGp has great racing.  F1 has to maintain a grip on the things that are Big Differences, that is what makes F1 special. 

 

.. and before someone chimes in about obnoxious volume for volume's sake - it's not about that.  It's about the context of the sound relative to the environment.  It demands your respect; you can't talk or even yell over it.  From a great distance you can hear a 2013 and older car shifting, braking, accellerating - that is impressive.  How the sound reverberates.  It's not literally music - it's a big part of the entertainment package, of which other parts have already been diluted to F1's detriment IMO.

 

Slow as a GP2 car, no louder than a Porsche Cup car, half the drivers wouldn't be there if they didn't have backers, artificial rules requiring 2 tire compounds, faux-"green" engines, saving gas, tiny motors, rev limits, being told to slow down...  I don't want F1 to be so "nice" on the technical/mechanical side.  Ahrghhh...

 

Do you want to go see fireworks that are silent?

[Zoetrope]

No, I actually voted nicer.

[Wander]

I actually don't much care for loudness. Sure, the engines sound impressive live, but that's not what it's about for me.

[dau]

"Nice" is completely subjective.

Loud is not.

[...]

 

Sure it is. Imagine someone who only ever turned up his stereo to 50% vs. ...these guys:

 

Edited by dau, 05 December 2013 - 18:23.

[wepmob2000]

I want to hear the cars leave the pits a mile away.  I want them to sound like the apocalypse approaching at 200 mph.  That is neat to me. 

 

 

I prefer nice, some engines sound so nice its like music. But I also like loud, so nice AND loud would be a good option in the poll, I want cake and I want to eat it :-) But yes, this also, that's a really cool way of encapsulating my own feelings on the subject, the pack should sound like the apocalypse approaching. Current F1 engines can clearly be heard 6 miles away if you're in a quiet location, I don't want to lose that.....

[KingTiger]

Nicer. 

 

The V8s aren't nice at all, it's just loud. Good riddance to them. 

[SUPRAF1]

I want my ears to bleed.

[Jackmancer]

Well, I'm really curious what the poll will be once engines will go electric. Because that WILL happen in time.

[Henri Greuter]

 

I want my ears to bleed.

Write this down on paper and let it read to a person who has lost his hearing due to loud noises and has to suffer the consequenses of that for the remainer of his life.
You might be surprised about the reaction you get.

Henri

[totgate]

Loud=Nice.. ;-)

[Fastcake]

I want to hear a nice sound any day. Simple volume does nothing for me, and I don't want to end up with a splitting headache just for watching a race.

[Henri Greuter]

 

Loud=Nice.. ;-)

Have it your way. Go deaf or be in pain because of damaged hearing organs within your head if you want.
Don't ask me to share your opinion. 'cause I already know what it is to have some kind of a hearing problem.
Portunately not caused by myself by the way, I have always had to deal with it.


Henri

[pRy]

Loud & nice: 

[CONOSUR]

Engine decibel levels for NASCAR, IndyCar and F1 were measured at Indy in 2003 and published in the local paper. The NASCAR engine registered 98dB, the IndyCar engine at 103dB, and the F1 V10 at 140dB. The current V8 engines run slightly less, due to the rev limit, at about 135+dB, and the new miniature turbo engines will measure in at <90d. As one who remembers the previous turbo era, I don't care how 'nice' quiet engines sound. They're still too quiet.

 

 

 

 

[Collombin]

and the F1 V10 at 140dB.

I'm gobsmacked if that's true, especially if an Indycar is 103. Isn't the old rule of thumb that an increase of 3dB is roughly equivalent to "twice as loud"?

[Jon83]

 


Have it your way. Go deaf or be in pain because of damaged hearing organs within your head if you want.
Don't ask me to share your opinion. 'cause I already know what it is to have some kind of a hearing problem.
Portunately not caused by myself by the way, I have always had to deal with it.


Henri

 

Not sure what this has to do with the debate.

[KiloWatt]

I'm gobsmacked if that's true, especially if an Indycar is 103. Isn't the old rule of thumb that an increase of 3dB is roughly equivalent to "twice as loud"?

Very impressive indeed. The rule of thumb that you're referring to is: 3dB is just perceptible, 5dB is clearly perceptible and 10dB is twice as loud.

Still, that implies that 40dB difference is 8 times as loud.

Edit: And that is post #1000! Up top!

Edited by KiloWatt, 06 December 2013 - 18:40.

[jonpollak]

Nice 'n Loud

Like they used to be.

But then, we used to have music that was both too.

 

The world is now bereft of sensory ecstasy.

Jp

[Henri Greuter]

@ Jon83

 

Point taken.

 

It has indeed nothing to do with preference of loud or nice.

I was too full about my personal concerns of the majority of the current younger generation of people of whom many seem not to care about the dangers of being exposed to extreme loud noise at, for example dance festivals, discotheques.

And for racing fans: being exposed to extreme loud engines.

Due to my own personal problems with my hearing when exposed to loud noises, I have read and heard of enough cases of younger people being careless about protection against loud sounds. And the results of that

And I can't help being utterly amazed about some careless comments I read here about people who express their desire for something without realizing the dangers of the phenomena they promote and want to be exposed to.

Hearing is one of those things that seem to be taken for granted when you have it and working well. But once after you have difficulties with it, especially when it is self inflicted, only then you realize what you once had than have lost.

In my case, it wasn't self inflicted, I was born with it.

 

Like I said in the mail you reacted upon: If people out here express a desire to take risks and go deaf, feel free to do so and I hope you'll like the experience when it happens and also once you know what it will cause you for the rest of your life.

But your point is taken and as from now on I won't react anymore in this thread with comments based on my own personal experiences.

Promise

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 06 December 2013 - 19:54.

[Collombin]

Very impressive indeed. The rule of thumb that you're referring to is: 3dB is just perceptible, 5dB is clearly perceptible and 10dB is twice as loud.

Still, that implies that 40dB difference is 8 times as loud.

16 times surely?

Whichever rule of thumb is correct, it certainly puts those quoted dB levels in doubt though.

[Henri Greuter]

@ E.B.

 

I was at Indy for the inauguaral F1 in 2000 and maybe the engines of that year did not revv u tot the 19000 and more yet.

But to stand them I had to wear earplugs and a head phone type silencer over my ears for additional protection to save me for head aches.

 

More to the point for your point: I spoke a number of people that year who had experiences with both NASCAR and the then current IRL cars and all of them were surprised the find out that, despite being smaller in capacity, the loudness of the F1 engines exceeded that of the American formulas cars massively. I couldn't compare them since my most recent NASCAR experience at Indy was from 1996 and I hadn't heard IRL cars at Indy yet. But since so many people mentioned it to me, I believe it.

(the other things that had them close to speechless was the fearsome acceleration but above all, the incredible braking capacities of the F1 cars compared with the American cars.)

 

Henri

[CONOSUR]

As I recall from the article in the newspaper, which was titled Loudest In the Yard (I still have that paper somewhere), the measurements were taken from 100 feet directly behind the car, with the engine revved to max rpm. The IndyCar engine could've been 105dB, but the other numbers are factual. The F1 car was definitely 140dB!

 

 

 

 

Edited by CONOSUR, 07 December 2013 - 18:55.

[Collombin]

I had heard figures from a couple of sources quoting around 110 dB for a single F1 car circa 2010. I have no idea whether those sources are any better than the 140 one, but compared to the Indy ones I still think 140 seems a bit steep. I hope it's right though, cos I voted LOUD.

[Wander]

I'd actually love to be able to go to an F1 race without having to worry about ear protection. Yes, I do mean I would prefer less than 100dB peak volumes.

[wepmob2000]

Loud & nice: 

 

Definitely, I've been lucky enough to see and hear one of these at close quarters, and it was an aural delight.

[chipmcdonald]

: If people out here express a desire to take risks and go deaf, feel free to do so

 

  I take care of my ears, I have a set of earplugs on my keychain sitting here in front of me.  Loud has nothing to do with blowing your ear drums out, it is about how it sounds at distances. 

 

It's also not as simple as quoting a db figure, without a distance and a duration.

 

You're not being exposed to a constant 140db.  It peaks.  You're also not hearing 140db, anyhow, unless you're point blank behind the exhausts. 

 

What you're hearing briefly, if you're sitting at the bottom of the stands on a straight, is something probably around 132db I would say, for about 150-250 milliseconds.  Because they're only sustaining that on a straight, the worst case scenario, you're going to have about 3 seconds over about 110db,  maybe 6 seconds at 98db.   The overall din maybe around 92-94db when they're within your sight. 

 

That's the worst case.  The thing that people don't grasp is that sound fades following inverse square.  So if that is 100' away in the stands, for the seats a 100' behind you can knock 6db off of those figures.

 

400' away take another 6db.  I would guess the bulk of the crowd would be in this area.  So along a main, topped out straight people are getting brief peaks of 118-120db, and dealing with a rock concert-like 98db-ish while watching cars in sight. 

 

Elsewhere - *I* wear earplugs anywhere near a racetrack because my business (musician) makes loud sound an occupational hazard, but for the "once a year" fan it's not really an issue.   People should still wear earplugs regardless in my opinion - but on the whole you're wrecking your ears more not wearing earplugs while cutting the grass, using power tools, hammering nails.  Probably a lot less.

 

Which leaves *the perception of "loud": it isn't hurting your ears to hear the cars reach max rpm on the other side of the track.  BUT, you *do* hear it, and that is a novel thing - to hear a finely tuned, dedicated one-of-a-kind precision instrument doing it's thing that far away.  You don't hear the Porsche Cup cars that far away.  You hardly hear LMP diesels at all. 

 

The only thing that compares is a military air show, a top fuel race, or a rocket launch.  Those things are very brief, and not nearly as complex as the sounds F1 cars (used) to make at volume. 

 

That is part of the show, part of the excitement.  AN-TI-CI-PA-TION.  For F1 it is a very novel thing in how dramatic the volume reveals the activity of the car/driver *from a long ways away*.   It creates an anticipation of the car's arrival to where you are seated like no other racing event.  I would say that it is the most important calling card in creating a new F1 fan from the casual attendee, the guy dragged along by a friend, the person that witnesses a street demo.   One can not care about that, but one can also not have a financially healthy racing series that is considered "just another series".

Edited by chipmcdonald, 07 December 2013 - 01:00.

[gluon]

During winter testing at Estoril for the 1994 season a father drove his 12 year old son to the circuit. Roughly two or three Km away from the circuit the son could already hear what he described as beasts screaming when the cars accelerated down the main straight and gunshots during down-shifting. Once at the grandstand, the son couldn't hear his father talking even if he would scream from the top of his lungs.

 

You simply cannot find words to make justice to how impressive F1 engines used to sound, but after 20 years of rule changes the son is still in love with F1 and always will be.

[f1RacingForever]

I imagine listening to an engine that was very loud but didn't sound very good would get annoying fairly quickly. A nice engine sound can be appreciated no matter how loud or quiet it is.

That said, the new turbo's don't sound either loud or very good. Shame it it turns out to be true.

Edited by f1RacingForever, 07 December 2013 - 03:24.

[KiloWatt]

16 times surely?

Whichever rule of thumb is correct, it certainly puts those quoted dB levels in doubt though.

Indeed, my mistake. Even more impressive then!

[muramasa]

I prefer pure sound. What it has to sound.

 

There was a talk that they would put sound enhancer gadget to 2014 engines before the original I4 turbo idea been swapped by V6 turbo. Heck no. The past several years, F-Nippon engines were equipped with enhancer device which sounds horrible and pathetic.

[Henri Greuter]

@ ChipmcDonald,

 

Thanks for your explanations.

I've made a promise to another poster here not to drag in my own personal ezperience anymore in this thread so that reduces my opportunitiest to react.

 

But one thing that still does concern me within your reaction is that you talk about the experience of the crowd.

They seem to ignore the fact that there are men and women working in such an enviroment three days every two weeks.

Since they have a "job of a life time", deal with it and shut up and/or do something else

No need to make their work enviroment more friendly?

Because it goes at the expense of the `expecting crowd`?

 

Henri

[Lazy]

Any ICE with no silencer will be plenty loud enough, so clearly nicer.

[chipmcdonald]

They seem to ignore the fact that there are men and women working in such an enviroment three days every two weeks.

 

They are not as exposed as one might think.

 

Everyone working around the cars have sound-blocking headphones on.  The pit crew also have helmets over I presume custom molded ear plugs.  

 

When the car is in the pits, they have exhaust mufflers they hook up.  When they're not used, they're not around the car with it revved to the max; the idle SPL is not an issue.  The guys on the pit wall have a wall of monitors in front of them, the container/box behind that, and their headphones on - you can hear how much bleed comes through their mics on the radio, they're not having to raise their voices.

 

 The driver has custom molded plugs, and the helmet.  I am sure it's scary loud when they pull up behind another car at max rpm, but again, they're not continuously doing that.  The thing I would be concerned about would be the rear jack man and tire changers.  The revving before the car is released is obviously for less than 2 seconds, but those guys are very close.  In fact, with next years regs and both banks coming out one exhaust point blank in front of the rear jack man - I'm thinking it may not be as loud as 2013, but you've got a jet of 1000 degree C that will be point at the guy from less than a meter away...

 

 It's a hazardous job, but so is working on aircraft jet engines, etc..   The thing people don't consider as well, is that there are a lot of things that seem more innocuous that can be worse.  I know people that have been in the Navy that almost always have a trough in their hearing from being exposed to a constant drone at a certain frequency, albeit low level.   Or people that do landscaping - ear muffs are great, but I would rather be exposed to a 1 second F1 throttle blip than 6-7 hours a day hearing a 100db non-stop leaf blower.  Or chain saws, etc.

 

 Ear buds are obvious, people have no idea of how loud they're running them in general, so I won't address that.  But probably the worst thing is driving a car over 30mph with the windows down - people are blasting their window ear with a good constant 90db or so, and then they crank their stereo up (with requisite flat-line overly compressed mp3 pop music) to match it.

 

 So no - it's not that big of a deal IMO in *modern* F1, provided the people working around the cars *are not bozos* about their hearing.  You shouldn't be walking up to the car without ear plugs.  The machismo around cars is almost exactly the same as witnessed in the music industry, *except at professional levels*: sub-par I.Q. people not comprehending the nature of their environment and showing how macho they are for not using hearing protection.  I figure it's kind of like smoking: some people are just not going to be smart enough to comprehend the cumulative effect over time and it's consequences, and you can't really do anything about that until people get wiser overall.  Common sense can only prevail when it is actually common.   In the music business pretty much everyone has hearing damage - you can't be around a drummer for anytime at all really without having it, but for people that are doing it daily the "accidental" exposures to feedback are almost unavoidable and instantaneously destructive (I'm sure jon pollak has horror stories).   At my advanced 46 year old age, I have musician friends that are more or less "deaf", you have to kind of yell at them, and it's funny - a lot of guys TALK REAL LOUD for some reason... <g>.   But the same goes for people that have worked on boats, particularly air craft carrier deck crews, military around guns, hunters around guns, regular auto mechanics, people that work around HVAC systems...

 

 Top Fuel racing is altogether a different thing, though.  Those mechanics definitely are probably ruining their ears tuning the cars, but then they're also breathing nitric acid.....

 

 But in all of the above, F1 is special because it's a sound that moves around, exhibits complexity at a distance, and conveys a sense of bridled power due to the effects of reverberation and tonal changes over a *distance*.  That is a very complex, chaotic thing, and it's my belief humans are hyponotized by complexity coming close to or exceeding comprehension limits - it's why we stare at the ocean, fire, clouds.  Loud sounds in the distance are enthralling, F1 should not give that up.

 

 

/ $.10 + a 0% loan from Janet Yellen

[Collombin]

It's also not as simple as quoting a db figure, without a distance and a duration.

Then you've just solved the issue - for some reason I assumed there was some consistent standard used when taking measurements.

[Slartibartfast]

Then you've just solved the issue - for some reason I assumed there was some consistent standard used when taking measurements.

He's right.  The distance needs to be known for the number to have any meaning, but also "dB" alone is meaningless. There are different scales and methods of measuring sound, and we need to know which was used.

Even then, the numbers don't always translate to the experience. For example, a screaming turbo might assault the ears with 140dBA scream while a big displacement low-revver might make your chest rumble while only reading 100dBA.

 

On the "nicer" vs "louder" debate - I wonder which he and his audience use to judge his music? 

[ardbeg]

Almost everyone watch F1 on the TV. If the engines would make less noise we would hear much more of the ambience, the audience, the tires... Big part of the spectators attending are brought there by someone that is a huge fan while they themselves are not. They are usually not appreciating the volume at all and I have many times heard "never again". It is dangerous for kids ears. The loud cars are forcing the the tracks to be further and further away from cities, from any housing areas. Very impractical.

[wepmob2000]

He's right.  The distance needs to be known for the number to have any meaning, but also "dB" alone is meaningless. There are different scales and methods of measuring sound, and we need to know which was used.

Even then, the numbers don't always translate to the experience. For example, a screaming turbo might assault the ears with 140dBA scream while a big displacement low-revver might make your chest rumble while only reading 100dBA.

 

On the "nicer" vs "louder" debate - I wonder which he and his audience use to judge his music? 

 

Very interesting. On a personal level, the least pleasant engines I've heard are the 1993-4 CART turbo units, no chest 'thump' and the noise was painful. One of the nicest IMHO are the large capacity engines fitted to Lola T.III's (and also the 1970's Ford DFV's). This pretty much supports what you're saying, although its just my humble opinion.

Edited by wepmob2000, 08 December 2013 - 11:22.