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New manufacturers considering to develop LMP1 cars, including Ferrari


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#101 onewingedangel

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 20:00

McLaren has history in true sportscars through Can-Am, and Honda through HPD are still involved, even if their financial commitment makes the Toyota entry seem lavish.

 

But working together on an entry may be better for both parties trying to go it alone.



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#102 SonnyViceR

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 20:04

It was definitely more production-based than the 911 GT1 and CLK GTR that appeared for 1997...

 

True, I give you that.

 

For some reason, if you have a class called GT1 it is doome to fail.

 

1999 - all original GT1s had been withdrawn after the massive overspending of factory teams had led to vicious cycle, plus the dominance of Mercedes drove everyone away from FIA GT

2010 - new GT1 is finelly killed off by the ACO, after slow decline in entry numbers that had been going on for a few years; stays only alive in the SRO world championship

2011 - new GT1 officially dies as SRO bans them from their on GT1 world championship

201X - over spending in GTE/GT2 and/or GT3 leads to either death of class, or GT/GT+ starts it all over again and we end up with the similar situation once again in few years time

 

One really annoying thing, besides all the current BoP and waiver crap, is that current GT cars both in ACO and FIA spec are rather unspectacular and not too powerful in performance. I mean, I suppose GTE could be on the level of LMP2 if let run less restricted, but the organizers have some weird idea that GT car cannot be as fast as prototypes. They slowed down even the new GT1s all the time so that their precious prototypes wouldn't get hurt. Why? It's not time 90's anymore.

 

And on the FIA/SRO side you have the BoP-GT3 running mostly by itself, so no-one even gives a crap how fast they are. Yet they are faster every year, thanks to manufacturers spending huge amounts of cash for development that in the end is pointless because of the balancing.

 

Super GT500 is the fastest GT class out there now, but it too will be ruined now with the horrible DTM bodykits. GT300 is already beyond hope



#103 DanardiF1

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 20:08

As a young'un not really brought up on Group C or anything (my first time watching Le Mans was the 1996 or 97 edition, not sure) I thought those GT1 races were the most exciting I've seen in my time watching sportscars. The cars looked great and were recognisably one manufacturer over another, you had some top manufacturers entering cars (Mercedes, Porsche, Nissan, Panoz-Ford) and it was competitive for the most part.

 

I'm not railing against LMP's and modern sportscar racing, but the GT1 rules made it easier for casual fans and young kids like me to get into sportscars, because the cars were these insane twisted versions of supposedly standard production cars. Did I believe for one second even as an 8 year old that the CLK GTR was related in any real way to a CLK? No... but it looked like it could.

 

My favourite Le Mans grid is still the 1998 edition:

Mercedes

Toyota

Nissan

Porsche

McLaren

BMW

Panoz

Ferrari

Courage

Kremer

 

All with cars ostensibly designed/intended to compete for the overall win. If everyone had finished (miracles can happen at Le Mans), there was a chance you could finish in the high teen's in GT1/LMP1 combined!


Edited by DanardiF1, 15 December 2013 - 20:16.


#104 DanardiF1

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 20:11

True, I give you that.

 

For some reason, if you have a class called GT1 it is doome to fail.

 

1999 - all original GT1s had been withdrawn after the massive overspending of factory teams had led to vicious cycle, plus the dominance of Mercedes drove everyone away from FIA GT

2010 - new GT1 is finelly killed off by the ACO, after slow decline in entry numbers that had been going on for a few years; stays only alive in the SRO world championship

2011 - new GT1 officially dies as SRO bans them from their on GT1 world championship

201X - over spending in GTE/GT2 and/or GT3 leads to either death of class, or GT/GT+ starts it all over again and we end up with the similar situation once again in few years time

 

One really annoying thing, besides all the current BoP and waiver crap, is that current GT cars both in ACO and FIA spec are rather unspectacular and not too powerful in performance. I mean, I suppose GTE could be on the level of LMP2 if let run less restricted, but the organizers have some weird idea that GT car cannot be as fast as prototypes. They slowed down even the new GT1s all the time so that their precious prototypes wouldn't get hurt. Why? It's not time 90's anymore.

 

And on the FIA/SRO side you have the BoP-GT3 running mostly by itself, so no-one even gives a crap how fast they are. Yet they are faster every year, thanks to manufacturers spending huge amounts of cash for development that in the end is pointless because of the balancing.

 

Super GT500 is the fastest GT class out there now, but it too will be ruined now with the horrible DTM bodykits. GT300 is already beyond hope

 

Completely agree, and on the GT not being faster than P2 'dilemma'... why did the ACO slow the P2's down so much? I know cost-capping is good for entries and halts development budgets going sky high in what is a privateer-based class, but they could be a lot faster and give some straggling P1's a kick up the arse now and then...

 

I also think that the ACO aren't necessarily that fussed about GT racing, because they still harbour some distant dream of an all-prototype grid ala the Group C and C2 days. They had it good then, but this is now, and GT racing is relevant and exciting if a little unspectacular car-wise.


Edited by DanardiF1, 15 December 2013 - 20:16.


#105 SonnyViceR

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 20:27

Completely agree, and on the GT not being faster than P2 'dilemma'... why did the ACO slow the P2's down so much? I know cost-capping is good for entries and halts development budgets going sky high in what is a privateer-based class, but they could be a lot faster and give some straggling P1's a kick up the arse now and then...

 

I think they saw what happened at the 1000km of Hungaroring in 2010 and didn't like it :p Of course before that ALMS had showed the real battle between P1 and P2 but that was really more of having factory team in both categories and the different ruleset of IMSA.

 

LMP2 of today sure is dull. Yes you have many entries and it's supposedly a good training ground, but the cars are sort of... uninteresting in terms of performance and outlook.

 

You can see how much they slowened down the GT1s (and on smaller scale GT2s) in mid-2000's. Gradually their pace was slowened down from being faster than most P2s on Mulsanne to being only few seconds faster than GT2s in 2009. Then again SRO handicapped and grandfathered them for 2010, and suddenly the class - with ACO adopting the rules for LM - was slower than GT2 race pace!!!

 

GTE and GT3 of today are technically speaking nearing the performance levels of the 2009-ish GT1, thanks to rising budgets and the previously mentioned BoP cycle, but does it really matter when the organizing body makes such lame efforts to keep them in bay?

 

Mr Stephane Ratel might have said and done many silly things, but his dream (that apparently still exists, listen to Spa 24h RLM 2013 broadcast if you don't believe) of having a GT1 styled ultra high production class is admirable. Sure it has the tendency to fail in the long rung, sure it is not happening on the current economic climate, but it is still something that should be thought again. FIA GT1 WC failed miserably due to terrible execution and wrong timing, but it had -some- good reasonings.

 

Ratel also once said that GT cars @ LM shouldn't be treated as the third division for no reason.



#106 DanardiF1

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 20:46

P2 cars are just kind of boring... they get nowhere on the straights and whilst they produce good levels of downforce they're just not as spectacular as I think they could be with a bit more power and a little bit off the weight. I don't even think they should be right on the coattails of the P1 cars but they could be faster and better to watch. When they were lighter and more nimble in the ALMS they were fantastic to watch.

 

I remember that Hungary race now thinking about it... but that was on a unique track with if I'm being honest not the best LMP1 entry ever (Rebellion aside but their Lola was not as developed by that point)... Strakka finished 5th overall at Le Mans that same year, 6 laps ahead of the next P2 car, so they were far ahead of the pack as well.



#107 Red17

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 21:30

True, I give you that.

 

For some reason, if you have a class called GT1 it is doome to fail.

 

1999 - all original GT1s had been withdrawn after the massive overspending of factory teams had led to vicious cycle, plus the dominance of Mercedes drove everyone away from FIA GT

2010 - new GT1 is finelly killed off by the ACO, after slow decline in entry numbers that had been going on for a few years; stays only alive in the SRO world championship

2011 - new GT1 officially dies as SRO bans them from their on GT1 world championship

201X - over spending in GTE/GT2 and/or GT3 leads to either death of class, or GT/GT+ starts it all over again and we end up with the similar situation once again in few years time

 

One really annoying thing, besides all the current BoP and waiver crap, is that current GT cars both in ACO and FIA spec are rather unspectacular and not too powerful in performance. I mean, I suppose GTE could be on the level of LMP2 if let run less restricted, but the organizers have some weird idea that GT car cannot be as fast as prototypes. They slowed down even the new GT1s all the time so that their precious prototypes wouldn't get hurt. Why? It's not time 90's anymore.

 

And on the FIA/SRO side you have the BoP-GT3 running mostly by itself, so no-one even gives a crap how fast they are. Yet they are faster every year, thanks to manufacturers spending huge amounts of cash for development that in the end is pointless because of the balancing.

 

Super GT500 is the fastest GT class out there now, but it too will be ruined now with the horrible DTM bodykits. GT300 is already beyond hope

 

My personal opinion is that the current GTmess is the direct result of the ACO forcing the hand of fate and the FIA entering it's rulling madness.

 

When the F1 won, me and a lot of informed people believed it was the end of LMP. And it should have been, the lack of factory entries in the P1 that year and the fact you could beat a faster class, coupled with increased manufacturer interest, had a "New P1 Here" written all over it.

 

At this point the ACO probably faced a dilema:

 

- embrace the new class filled with old and new names but risk to loose it's identity since those same GT's were racing everywere (this was a couple years before the ACO sanctioned LMS series AND there was that BPR thing going on which the ACO had little input)

- protect the advantage of the prototype class by putting an halt to the GT development, thus ensuring that the winning car would be a Lemans specific car, eventually manufacturers would return to P1 since the race had been a non championship relavant for years but had tons of prestige

 

Of course that in the following year a P1 won and eventually GT1 went belly up. But manufacturers never dropped GT completly. So now we have 2 paralel classes that are relevant but are kept at distance out of fear of mutual annihilation.

 

P2 is pretty much the same, they need to keep it slow enough out of risk of having a "rag tag team" (yes, I know racing is expensive) lucking out against the money filled WAG.


Edited by Red17, 15 December 2013 - 21:33.


#108 SonnyViceR

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 15:05

I remember that Hungary race now thinking about it... but that was on a unique track with if I'm being honest not the best LMP1 entry ever (Rebellion aside but their Lola was not as developed by that point)... Strakka finished 5th overall at Le Mans that same year, 6 laps ahead of the next P2 car, so they were far ahead of the pack as well.

 

Well there was a diesel Peugeot from Oreca...



#109 Briz

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 15:06

Not even following sportscars so I might say some oversimplified and silly things, but that's what it looks like to me - I think it makes sense now for Ferrari to steal the show from Audi and Porsche. Audi has had a relatively easy time to get where they are without some huge competition and they have invested a lot in promoting the series and make it matter again, glorifying their own success etc. Porsche are making noise about it too, the legend returning, Mark Webber joining etc. So the value of coming in and schooling those two teams is huge. You have to also consider that Ferrari is probably miles ahead when it comes to know-how about highest level racing cars due to their non-stop involvement in F1 and being one of the top teams there. I can't imagine Porsche and Audi having the same knowledge. There's a reasonable chance Ferrari will make quick work of them and as already explained there's a huge incentive to do so.


Edited by Briz, 20 December 2013 - 15:06.


#110 ArnageWRC

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 15:41

I’ve always wished to see a return to a joint top class; LMP1/ GT……like in 1998-99. Those Manufacturers who wish to use a ‘GT Road car’ can, but those who want a Prototype can. I’m sure McLaren have expressed a wish/ interest in this.



#111 Option1

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 16:10

Not even following sportscars so I might say some oversimplified and silly things, but that's what it looks like to me - I think it makes sense now for Ferrari to steal the show from Audi and Porsche. Audi has had a relatively easy time to get where they are without some huge competition and they have invested a lot in promoting the series and make it matter again, glorifying their own success etc. Porsche are making noise about it too, the legend returning, Mark Webber joining etc. So the value of coming in and schooling those two teams is huge. You have to also consider that Ferrari is probably miles ahead when it comes to know-how about highest level racing cars due to their non-stop involvement in F1 and being one of the top teams there. I can't imagine Porsche and Audi having the same knowledge. There's a reasonable chance Ferrari will make quick work of them and as already explained there's a huge incentive to do so.

I think that is looking at things through very very rosso corso tinted glasses.   If it happens, and I hope it does, Ferrari would be competitive, but you severely under-estimate the existing expertise for this class of racing, particularly Audi's.  They won't stroll in and immediately decimate the opposition.

 

Neil



#112 ElJefe

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 17:05

Seems Ferrari is pretty serious about a return to P1. That would be the best news for sportscars since the demise of Group C.

#113 SonnyViceR

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 19:38

http://www.autoblog....-le-mans-rumor/

 

drgdrg.png



#114 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 20:05

We are rapidly approaching the event horizon of Twitter-News stupidity.



#115 SonnyViceR

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 20:29

Maybe but it's not like those tweets are any less meaningless "news" than most of the Autosport F1 articles which are at the end of the day pointless



#116 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 20:33

Autosport has a slightly higher threshold of reporting than Webber making a bit of fun speculation. 



#117 SonnyViceR

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 15:40

Autosport has a slightly higher threshold of reporting than Webber making a bit of fun speculation. 

 

I didn't mean that those tweets would be more reliable as sources than what Autosport has to offer, but that the subject matter of those have about as much content as those "news" articles ...



#118 SonnyViceR

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 17:35

ACO is fed up with Nissan's public relation BS:

´http://translate.goo...n-13122801.html

 

Basically the ACO doesn't care for Nissan's vague promises about their LMP1 future ("we MIGHT be in P1 in the future if the rules are perfectly tailored for our desired direction") and says Nissan needs to make commitment if they wish to have the G56 slot for next year. Garage 56 is not for meaningless marketing purposes, as seems to be the case with Nissan's projected G56 plan... again



#119 ArnageWRC

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 18:17

I do have some sympathy with the ACO. The amount of publicity Nissan gained from the G56 DeltaWing project was probably more than the actual winners. That can't be right. We've heard of plenty of PR from Darren Cox, and how Nissan like to be different.... Fine. They talk the talk, can they walk the walk......???

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#120 Red17

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 19:35

ACO is fed up with Nissan's public relation BS:

´http://translate.goo...n-13122801.html

 

Basically the ACO doesn't care for Nissan's vague promises about their LMP1 future ("we MIGHT be in P1 in the future if the rules are perfectly tailored for our desired direction") and says Nissan needs to make commitment if they wish to have the G56 slot for next year. Garage 56 is not for meaningless marketing purposes, as seems to be the case with Nissan's projected G56 plan... again

 

In short, The ACO can use you for their ends. But you cannot use the ACO for your ends.

 

Isn't the Deltawing allowed only in USC? Im surprised the ACO actually considered the Deltawing again after the less than impressive performance last time.



#121 BRG

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 19:41

Im surprised the ACO actually considered the Deltawing again after the less than impressive performance last time.

It isn't the Deltawing.  It's the Nissan Zeod, a hybrid powered car that just happens to look rather like the D'wing (which is the subject of legal action at the moment I believe).  And last year's G56 entry, a hydrogen fuelled car, failed to turn up, so ACO may not have much of a selection to chose from.



#122 Red17

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 20:15

Let's not get into another name discussion BRG.

 

But if the ACO is indeed so desperate why not invite a DP? Same thing as the DW, has a bunch of haters and is already BoPed with the LMP2.

 

*awaits for Sonny's ban hammer*



#123 pingu666

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 21:14

g56 is for out there concepts, we know a dp runs fine.



#124 SonnyViceR

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 19:26

Just heads up for those who entered the autosport or racer.com front page and saw that delicious "Nissan committed to LMP1 WEC entry"...

 

... when you actually open up the article it's once again pretty non-commitment speach from the master of PR bull*hit, Darren Cox, with a lot of promises that sound good but when you actually read along the lines you see that they haven't received GO-word from Nissan at all. Make up your minds.

 

You can also see how very low key interest this so-called announcement has received...



#125 ArnageWRC

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 19:57

Nissan can talk the talk - but can they walk the walk?? They like all the PR and everything with the G56.......Now for something concrete!!



#126 SonnyViceR

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 20:13

They'll most likely get a massive PR boost with the Zeod, just as they did with NISSAN Deltawing no matter how that vehicle actually performs, and then when they've milked that cow dry they blame the economics or whatever for having to abandon future P1 "plans" and fully concentrating on LMP2 engine supplying