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McLaren P1™ vs. the Nürburgring-Nordschleife


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#51 shonguiz

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 21:16

All P1 sold out ? From where is that coming from ? And you forget the most important thing here, their Super Car brand reputation, if the P1 is so awaited, it's not only because of their marketing campaign, but firstly because they are the ones behind the F1.



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#52 as65p

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 21:29

As it is, it looks like they entered the pissing contest as you say but ducked out after finding out that they weren't quite pissing as far as Porsche was.

 

But of course we cannot say for sure since we just don't know the time. 

 

We can't be absolutely certain, but there's probably just half a percent missing. Failing to beat Porsche is the only reason I can think of to not release a time or at least mention that they were faster.

 

BTW,  pissing contests always seem underrated. Just ask the winners!  ;)



#53 M2B

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 21:37

All P1 sold out ? From where is that coming from ? And you forget the most important thing here, their Super Car brand reputation, if the P1 is so awaited, it's not only because of their marketing campaign, but firstly because they are the ones behind the F1.

 

Yes, all of them.   ;) And they beat the Porsche. Not releasing the exact time is a brilliant idea if you ask me. That video is amazing.



#54 senna da silva

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 21:38

I find it hard to believe that the Porsche could be faster than the P1 when its around 200kg heavier and has less power.



#55 M2B

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 21:46

I find it hard to believe that the Porsche could be faster than the P1 when its around 200kg heavier and has less power.

 

Exactly. And it's much less aerodynamically advanced car.



#56 motorhead

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 21:56

I think this by Tommi Mäkinen is more impressive...if thinking about aerodynamics, weight and everything

 

http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage


Edited by motorhead, 19 December 2013 - 21:58.


#57 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 22:53

What amazing car!!! :clap:



#58 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 22:58

I find it hard to believe that the Porsche could be faster than the P1 when its around 200kg heavier and has less power.

 

just look at the Porsches "stance" , peak power says nothing, Porsche is also always very conservative with HP, also maybe the hybrid system...



#59 shonguiz

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 01:24

Yes, all of them.   ;) And they beat the Porsche. Not releasing the exact time is a brilliant idea if you ask me. That video is amazing.

Show mw your source and no it's not brilliant, if you enter a pissing contest, then you have to show that you indeed have the bigger one.



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#60 Lazy

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 05:49

We reckon the Green Hell is one of the most challenging tests in the world of the all-round performance of any supercar. So one of the P1’s engineering targets was to reach a sub-seven time during testing. As you’ll have read, we have achieved that target. Comfortably. But we have no plans to give a time. We didn’t for 12C. We don’t intend to for P1 either

 

Why? Well, Nick puts it pretty succinctly.. But you and I know that any time we release would be compared and comparisons are meaningless in the ungoverned and variable conditions of the Nordschleife. And given the risks involved, it’s not a competition we want to encourage either. A position that our customers support.

 

Quotes from McLaren.

 

Rumours from the track say 6.47 which would match the "Comfortably" statement.

 

http://jalopnik.com/...ring-1458393775


Edited by Lazy, 20 December 2013 - 06:24.


#61 Wanderer

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 08:15

Quotes from McLaren.

 

Rumours from the track say 6.47 which would match the "Comfortably" statement.

 

http://jalopnik.com/...ring-1458393775

 

Reading this article doesn't clear anything for me. A "rumoured" 6:47? What does that mean? What tyres were they running? I'm sure the Porsche could do that time too on slicks. If they don't release some more information than Porsche can carry on claiming to have the fastest road legal car around the ring. 

 

And really there is some irony in McLarens comments.

 

 

I couldn’t give a monkey’s about the cult of the Nordschleife lap time. Never have.

 

After saying it's "going back to the Nordschleife, it's going to be sub-7 minutes so its going to break all the records." Or that presentation picture with the aspired inspired 6:33. It seemed ring times were quite an argument in selling the car, but suddenly (after running on the ring) they became pointless. 

 

Sure.



#62 Lazy

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 08:58

Reading this article doesn't clear anything for me. A "rumoured" 6:47? What does that mean? What tyres were they running? I'm sure the Porsche could do that time too on slicks. If they don't release some more information than Porsche can carry on claiming to have the fastest road legal car around the ring. 

 

 

You don't know what rumoured means?

 

And really there is some irony in McLarens comments.

 

 

After saying it's "going back to the Nordschleife, it's going to be sub-7 minutes so its going to break all the records." Or that presentation picture with the aspired inspired 6:33. It seemed ring times were quite an argument in selling the car, but suddenly (after running on the ring) they became pointless. 

 

Sure.

That's not a McLaren quote.



#63 Wanderer

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 09:17

You don't know what rumoured means?

 

Hearsay of doubtful truth?

 

 

That's not a McLaren quote.

 

That's right, my fault. He sounds like he's part of their press team.



#64 Lazy

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 09:29

Hearsay of doubtful truth?

 

 

That's right, my fault. He sounds like he's part of their press team.

He's a guy from the magazine.

 

Time comes from guys at the circuit, best information available unless you have anything better.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Z2CHtZZFTDY



#65 CoolBreeze

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 09:45

Seems very unlikely, where did you get this from?

 

Multiple other car forums, magazine info, etc. 

 

The story was, Mclaren claimed even before they took on the ring that the P1 will definitely go under 7 minutes. Porsche runs the Spider, and broadcasts to everyone. Mclaren then proceeds to do a few runs. They claim that they have actually done it in less than 7 mins and some even claim faster than Porsche time (i'm not too sure about this part though). 

 

Then after the run, Mclaren says they won't release a time. You definitely can't be more silly than this. 



#66 Lazy

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 09:57

Multiple other car forums, magazine info, etc. 

 

The story was, Mclaren claimed even before they took on the ring that the P1 will definitely go under 7 minutes. Porsche runs the Spider, and broadcasts to everyone. Mclaren then proceeds to do a few runs. They claim that they have actually done it in less than 7 mins and some even claim faster than Porsche time (i'm not too sure about this part though). 

 

Then after the run, Mclaren says they won't release a time. You definitely can't be more silly than this. 

Yes, and they did, and they said they had, where did they say that they were going to release a time. They didn't for the 12c, what makes you think they would do it with the P1?

 

The contradiction you imply is not there, the lie you stated is totally in your confused little noggin..



#67 Wanderer

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 11:45

He's a guy from the magazine.

 

Time comes from guys at the circuit, best information available unless you have anything better.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Z2CHtZZFTDY

 

Do you mean the people that made the video? Bystanding in one corner of the track and later harassing the P1 on public roads? 

 

According to articles like this and this McLaren stated that the average speed of what was surely their best run was "in excess of 111 mph" (178.6 km/h). Theoretically that could be as much as Porsche's 179.5 and that would of course mean a time pretty similar to Porsche if most likely a little slower, but nowhere near 6:47 obviously. 

 

Just imagine they would release a 6:58 shortly after Porsche scored a 6:57. No matter how impressive this time is as an achievement, you don't want your hypercar to be famous for being 1 second slower than the 918. Then better release no time and just say you beat the 7 minutes. 


Edited by Wanderer, 20 December 2013 - 11:54.


#68 Ben1445

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:11

I found the fact that the shots kept jumping back and forth from different places on the track rather confusing. I can't help it, but showing me a shot onboard at the end of the straight followed immediately by a cut back to Galgenkopf (just before the straight) messes with my head. 

I shouldn't get so petty, but...



#69 Lazy

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:39

Do you mean the people that made the video? Bystanding in one corner of the track and later harassing the P1 on public roads? 

 

According to articles like this and this McLaren stated that the average speed of what was surely their best run was "in excess of 111 mph" (178.6 km/h). Theoretically that could be as much as Porsche's 179.5 and that would of course mean a time pretty similar to Porsche if most likely a little slower, but nowhere near 6:47 obviously. 

 

Just imagine they would release a 6:58 shortly after Porsche scored a 6:57. No matter how impressive this time is as an achievement, you don't want your hypercar to be famous for being 1 second slower than the 918. Then better release no time and just say you beat the 7 minutes. 

All speculation and it's up to us whether we accept McLarens explanation on the subject.

 

But there was no contradiction and no lie.

 

Plenty believe it on Car Buzz and other sites too.

 

Puddles might actually be correct, someone who was at a new McLaren dealership was talking with an official n said it did a 6:47 and 6:33 on slicks.

 

Heard that in a few places as well as from the youtube guy. We might never know.



#70 Andy35

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:53

Considering Ron said it would be the fastest car full stop then they need to show the time.   No point then saying, in effect, we are the fastest car but don't want to say how much faster. Imagine if they did that on the track. "Jenson was faster than Seb in  QP3 but we are not going to release a time, but we will say he was comfortably faster".  

 

Mclaren's whole existence through history is through the stopwatch. 

 

They said the MP4-12C would be faster than the Ferrari 458 also around a circuit.  Evo magazine tested the 458 quicker, perhaps due to the legion of Ferrari engineers and behind the scenes tweaking, but even so it was faster. Here's a clue to Mclaren, don't make claims that it will be the fastest and then have problems showing it. Just make a very good car to drive.  Problem is with Mclaren they just go by the numbers.

 

I'd rather have a car half as quick and twice as fun.  Chris Harris has driven the Porsche 918 for Drive

 

 

 

 and even he, who has great car control, says it is intimidating.

 

For both P1, LaFerrari and 918 both the intimidation factor and cost of having an accident will mean that the Nurburgring time will mean nothing to who actually drives them. The owners will be just rich gents fannying about after all. So it is all hypothetical.  AI normal bloke in a Nissan GTR could beat 95% of these owners around that track in their hypercars just down to skill and not caring too much. 

 

And the GTR is 1/10th the cost, but it does not give you the fawning adulation of the masses.

Andy


Edited by Andy35, 20 December 2013 - 12:54.


#71 HopkinsonF1

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 13:05

According to articles like this and this McLaren stated that the average speed of what was surely their best run was "in excess of 111 mph" (178.6 km/h). Theoretically that could be as much as Porsche's 179.5 and that would of course mean a time pretty similar to Porsche if most likely a little slower, but nowhere near 6:47 obviously. 

'In excess of 111mph' is just another variation on saying 'under seven minutes' (length of Nordschleife/7 minutes=111mph). It's not giving anything extra away, and shouldn't be taken as a clue to the actual time.



#72 werks prototype

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 18:20

I thought the 'Peterborough' Radicals, the Radical SR8LM held the production car, Nürburgring-Nordschleife record. Was the P1 sub 6:48?

 

#73 Lazy

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 07:17

http://m.autocar.co....st-drive-review

 

Fast enough to lap the Nurburgring in "considerably less than seven minutes" says McLaren, although even at this stage of the car's life, Woking still won't say what the car's official Nordschleife time is.

According to the rumour mill that is the internet the number of 6min 47sec keeps cropping up. But according to a McLaren insider I spoke to who knows rather more about the P1's capabilities than any armchair expert ever could, the actual time is "a fair bit quicker than that." As in six minutes 30 something. Either way, the P1 is, until Ferrari unleashes the LaFerrari at the Green Hell, king of the 'Ring. For the time being.

 


Edited by Lazy, 20 January 2014 - 07:18.


#74 S3baman

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 15:10

I think this by Tommi Mäkinen is more impressive...if thinking about aerodynamics, weight and everything

 

http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage

 

Holly, how come I never came across this video before? All hail the great Tommy, the best rally driver ever  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:



#75 as65p

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 17:08

 

Sorry, but I think until a real number emerges, not just "something around xy" / "considerably less than xy" / "in the region of xy" I don't see how the car can be called king of anything.



#76 senna da silva

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 17:23

 

If true, 25 seconds faster than the Porsche is astounding!



#77 Obi Offiah

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 17:55

Lazy that really wouldn't surprise me.  When you compare the two cars (918 & P1) stats wise, I find it very difficult to believe the Porsche to be the faster car, but you never really know in the realm of road cars.



#78 10e10

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 18:01

I wouldn't call it victory unless the time was released.

#79 Lazy

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 18:31

There was mention before about a 6:30ish time but I think that was set on slicks.



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#80 Gintonious

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 19:28

How long ago did they set the time?



#81 S3baman

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 20:04

How long ago did they set the time?

 

IIRC it was in late September or October of last year.



#82 Gintonious

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 07:03

And still no mention of the time?



#83 garagetinkerer

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 07:40

It is things like this why i generally hold Max's impression of Ron as very true.

 

Ron: "Trust me, we did it in under 7 minutes"

Porsche engineers: :rotfl:

Ron: "Why would i lie"

Porsche engineers: "thank you for trolling:"

 

By the way, Max called Ron a Tango Whiskey Alpha Tango



#84 pRy

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 10:50

The P1 got an outing on Top Gear last night:
 
 
Lots of track side footage of the test runs at Spa:
 
 
When they drove the previous McLaren road car Jeremy said that while it was clearly technically brilliant it lacked the passion of say a Ferrari and was too sterile. But with this one there was no mention of any of that because I think it's pretty clear the P1 is by far the best road car ever developed. It's as close to driving a current F1 car on the roads as you'll get.


#85 Tapz63

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 10:58


The P1 got an outing on Top Gear last night:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=xbW65hJHiTE

Lots of track side footage of the test runs at Spa:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=FsuRsyLD7JM

When they drove the previous McLaren road car Jeremy said that while it was clearly technically brilliant it lacked the passion of say a Ferrari and was too sterile. But with this one there was no mention of any of that because I think it's pretty clear the P1 is by far the best road car ever developed. It's as close to driving a current F1 car on the roads as you'll get.


I just watched top gear and Jeremy definitely did say it lacks the passion of a Ferrari. Not that him saying that means anything, I'm sure mclaren are just as passionate about making money as ferrari are.

#86 Rinehart

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:06

Next week on Top Gear the P1 is up against the 918 in the hands of the Stig. I know which one my money is on. I think there will be quite a gap too. 

 

I quite like the fact that McLaren haven't released the Nurburgring-Nordschleife time - it creates a bit of intrigue and legend. Its not an official time anyway, so what does it matter. All you need to know is that the car is quite literally packed with all the right technologies and materials - physics clearly points that the thing is likely to be a rocketship, most probably unmatched by anything else with a numberplate. Some manufacturers have chased the ultimate top speed record, great for top trumps, but this car is clearly a new chapter in vehicle dynamics. 



#87 swerved

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:08

 

The P1 got an outing on Top Gear last night:
 
 
Lots of track side footage of the test runs at Spa:
 
 
When they drove the previous McLaren road car Jeremy said that while it was clearly technically brilliant it lacked the passion of say a Ferrari and was too sterile. But with this one there was no mention of any of that because I think it's pretty clear the P1 is by far the best road car ever developed. It's as close to driving a current F1 car on the roads as you'll get.

 

 

Well there was a little mention, and in fact JC said he would probably agree with anyone who said it lacked the passion and flair of a Ferrari, and i only recall that because of the analogy he made which i found pretty funny

 

"It was passion and flair that built the leaning tower of Pisa, and it was British engineering that built the plumb dead straight Westminster Abbey"  :lol:

 

A technically amazing car, though from some angles not a pretty one, though that may have been the colour, the silver and black one they had in the studio looked stunning.



#88 Victor_RO

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:09

 

Next week on Top Gear the P1 is up against the 918 in the hands of the Stig. I know which one my money is on. I think there will be quite a gap too. 

 

I quite like the fact that McLaren haven't released the Nurburgring-Nordschleife time - it creates a bit of intrigue and legend. Its not an official time anyway, so what does it matter. All you need to know is that the car is quite literally packed with all the right technologies and materials - physics clearly points that the thing is likely to be a rocketship, most probably unmatched by anything else with a numberplate. Some manufacturers have chased the ultimate top speed record, great for top trumps, but this car is clearly a new chapter in vehicle dynamics. 

 

It's not next week, it's some time within the next few weeks, TV listings have a track test of the Zenvo ST1 listed for next week (and that car was seen in the series preview in the first episode too). I suspect they're waiting for a dry day to put both cars around the track.



#89 Newbrray

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:20

Next week on Top Gear the P1 is up against the 918 in the hands of the Stig. I know which one my money is on. I think there will be quite a gap too. 

 

I quite like the fact that McLaren haven't released the Nurburgring-Nordschleife time - it creates a bit of intrigue and legend. Its not an official time anyway, so what does it matter. All you need to know is that the car is quite literally packed with all the right technologies and materials - physics clearly points that the thing is likely to be a rocketship, most probably unmatched by anything else with a numberplate. Some manufacturers have chased the ultimate top speed record, great for top trumps, but this car is clearly a new chapter in vehicle dynamics. 

 

I will wait till the Red devils release any timings on their "La Ferrari" cos whispers in the corners are saying it just might top everything there is out there



#90 SCUDmissile

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 12:13

That McLaren is an utterly fantastic car. LaFerrari, P1, 918. Top Gear must be spoiled for choice.

 

I think Jeremy's bet is safe tbh. No way the 918 beats the P1 time, and I really doubt theFerrari would too. Although it would be nice if they could get all 3 for a hypercar hybrid extravaganza. 

 

I don't think McLaren have released the time of the P1 yet just to see what Ferrari do. Surely it would have beaten the Porsche. Again despite the army of engineers, I doubt Ferrari could outdo the P1. I wish they would release the time, but there you go. 

 

Closest I'll get to driving these things is on GT anyways.



#91 Owen

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 12:15

Would be cool if they took all 3 on a road trip somewhere. :smoking:



#92 Markn93

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 12:19

Oh i think that is somewhere in their plans, perhaps a very belated xmas special? 

 

Btw I love that thing.  It's a special special machine.



#93 JRizzle86

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 12:50

Would be cool if they took all 3 on a road trip somewhere. :smoking:

It would certainly be very cool but not sure they will be able to get their hands on a spare P1 or la Ferrari in the future they just happen to have lying around. As it sounds they have all been sold. 



#94 Ali_G

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 12:54

I can't understand how people think the 918 will be faster than the P1.  I think the gap could be huge.  Bhp is about the same (McLaren shading it) but the McLaren will weight a whopping 245kg less.

 

The LaFerrari is both lighter and more powerful than the McLaren.  Something is still nagging me though that the McLaren will still be faster.


Edited by Ali_G, 10 February 2014 - 13:03.


#95 OSX

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 13:08

Bit cliché if you ask me... and not releasing the time... what's the point?

The same as it ever was, marketing.



#96 SCUDmissile

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 13:12

It would certainly be very cool but not sure they will be able to get their hands on a spare P1 or la Ferrari in the future they just happen to have lying around. As it sounds they have all been sold. 

 

Jay Kay is getting a laFerrari and he has donated his cars to Top Gear before iirc. Chris Evans has also donated Ferraris but don't know if he is getting a laFerrari.

 

I don't really know who would donate a P1, apart from Ron obviously.



#97 Lemans

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 14:18

I can't understand how people think the 918 will be faster than the P1.  I think the gap could be huge.  Bhp is about the same (McLaren shading it) but the McLaren will weight a whopping 245kg less.

 

The LaFerrari is both lighter and more powerful than the McLaren.  Something is still nagging me though that the McLaren will still be faster.

 

It's probably because Ferrari like to be a little optimistic with their specs. Just ask certain owners of the Enzo that have had their cars weighed on scales and found them to be much heavier then what Ferrari say, or one owner who has put his car in a windtunnel and found the downforce figures a lot less then claimed by Ferrari.

 

Also, I doubt the 'LaLa Ferrari' will generate anywhere near the amount of downforce the P1 will.

However, having said all that, we all know Ferrari like to send 'ringers' to group tests...


Edited by Lemans, 10 February 2014 - 14:19.


#98 onewingedangel

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 14:55

The P1 could potentially have been made lighter if the chassis was completely bespoke rather than based upon the proven 12c tub, but obviously the differences can't have been that great otherwise McLaren would have chosen that route.

 

It could develop more power from the engine, and they could even use an F1 style ERS-H to spool the larger turbo, but that would add weight. And a clean sheet engine design for a run of 375 cars would not have been viable. Ferrari's V12 family will see service in the LaFerrari, FF and F12 - they have a wide enough product range that they don't have to extend variants of their V8 across the whole family. But in practice I don't think the P1 powerplant is any worse off from being a development of the M838T

 

So the P1 is not without compromises, but the package as a whole is so accomplished the LaFerrari has a tough target to match.



#99 mlsnoopy

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 15:13

The P1 could potentially have been made lighter if the chassis was completely bespoke rather than based upon the proven 12c tub, but obviously the differences can't have been that great otherwise McLaren would have chosen that route.

 

It could develop more power from the engine, and they could even use an F1 style ERS-H to spool the larger turbo, but that would add weight. And a clean sheet engine design for a run of 375 cars would not have been viable. Ferrari's V12 family will see service in the LaFerrari, FF and F12 - they have a wide enough product range that they don't have to extend variants of their V8 across the whole family. But in practice I don't think the P1 powerplant is any worse off from being a development of the M838T

 

So the P1 is not without compromises, but the package as a whole is so accomplished the LaFerrari has a tough target to match.

 

Don't forget, that the point is to make money and to use that money to fund the F1 team. 



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#100 Ali_G

Ali_G
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 17:20

Don't forget, that the point is to make money and to use that money to fund the F1 team.


I get the impression that Ron is on a much grander mission here. He wants to turn McLaren into the British version of Ferrari. And you know what, he's certainly getting there. Add a baby McLaren and a grand tourer and McLaren will essentially cover the entire Ferrari line-up. All McLaren will lack at this stage will be road car history which will develop over time.