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The type of racing in 2014


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#1 kenkip

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 06:45

So I thought we should have a thread discussing the type of racing in the turbo V6 era.What will change?
In the 2009-2013 era,the most efficient way of going about racing was sticking the car on pole,breaking the DRS zone in the first few laps and controlling the pace from there,covering your rivals pit stops and cruising to the finish line after the last stop,(with an odd fastest lap to piss of your race engineer!)

Its not just the lead of the race,also when defending or attacking for positions on the racetrack in the 2009-2013 era,clever KERS usage and a good exit of the last corner before a DRS zone was essential in getting a pass through.

My query is,with more electrical energy in hand,less fuel on board and more torque produced in the engine,what will be the best way to go about winning the race?

Off course,I know some posters will mention that we have to wait for the cars to hit the race track and the 2014 tires have not yet been tested,but surely we have enough info from previous turbo seasons and our own knowledge to get a good discussion going,right?

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#2 SenorSjon

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 08:19

Call FIA to invent a rule that disqualifies all others. It is anything can happen Wednesday. :p

 

I don't think we see much change

Pirelli overreacts and will make concrete tires

F1 drivers will drive to fuel delta

DRS will be as ****ed up as ever. It would be refreshing if they don't use it on classic tracks. The TilkeDomes are doomed anyway, so have a go with DRS, SC and Sprinklers.



#3 Peat

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:30

'Racing' will be even more moot than last year - the DRS slot gap is bigger than this year and the fact everyone will be running around at half-revs (to save fuel) will mean an overtake will be even easier to achieve. It'll be as fun as watching cars on the motorway.



#4 GlenP

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:49

I predict widespread pissing and moaning and talking about the good old days - totally forgetting the shambles of the last turbo/fuel limited era.

 

Or we could just wait and see.



#5 kenkip

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 10:53

Call FIA to invent a rule that disqualifies all others. It is anything can happen Wednesday. :p

 

I don't think we see much change

Pirelli overreacts and will make concrete tires

F1 drivers will drive to fuel delta

DRS will be as ****ed up as ever. It would be refreshing if they don't use it on classic tracks. The TilkeDomes are doomed anyway, so have a go with DRS, SC and Sprinklers.

'F1 drivers will drive to fuel delta'

 

There will be something like a fuel delta?Christ...



#6 kenkip

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 10:58

lets look at a hypothetical race situation:Two cars are fighting for position on track,will the chasing car use up all its  ERS to get the gap down to within the 1s DRS zone,and if so,the car being chased may have saved up all its ERS in that lap and use it defensivley,will DRS be powerful enough to cover the power deficit in the chasing car? Have I made sense?



#7 boldhakka

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 12:44

'Racing' will be even more moot than last year - the DRS slot gap is bigger than this year and the fact everyone will be running around at half-revs (to save fuel) will mean an overtake will be even easier to achieve. It'll be as fun as watching cars on the motorway.


I didn't know the DRS slot gaps going to be made bigger. Interesting.

#8 Peat

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 13:29

from 50mm to 60mm i believe. 



#9 BillBald

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 13:43

DRS will be a lot more effective on most tracks, since there will no longer be the problem of hitting the limiter. The same thing applies to getting a tow outside of the DRS zones.

 

I think overtaking really will become too easy, this may lead to a reduction in the DRS zones.

 

Driving to a 'fuel delta' is a non-issue, it's not at all the same as driving to a delta to look after the tyres. A driver can be pushing 100% without using more fuel, it will just be up to his RE to keep him informed (or they may put helpful lights on the steering wheel). Any driver who is undisciplined enough to use extra fuel will pay the price later in the race. If a driver has confidence in his own abilities, why wouldn't he find the pace in himself rather than by using too much fuel?



#10 BillBald

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 13:49

lets look at a hypothetical race situation:Two cars are fighting for position on track,will the chasing car use up all its  ERS to get the gap down to within the 1s DRS zone,and if so,the car being chased may have saved up all its ERS in that lap and use it defensivley,will DRS be powerful enough to cover the power deficit in the chasing car? Have I made sense?

 

I think it might be risky to save ERS-K to use it for defending, I believe that ERS-K will be reset at the start of each lap the same as it has been with KERS. On the other hand, if the recharging was insufficient, there may not be much available for use.

 

What is certain is that DRS will be much more effective than in previous years.



#11 HoldenRT

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 13:50

There used to be a time when fastest lap meant someone was pushing and having the pace to challenge someone in front, or with enough pace.. challenging for victory.

 

Lately.. it usually just means someone has fitted a new set of tyres.  And that could even be a Force India or Sauber.. since the others would be so far below the potential pace of the car.  The live timing also changed to show weird patterns.. like doing a fast lap.. then a slower lap.. then a faster lap.. then a slower lap.. by trying to manage temperature of the tyres.  As opposed to consistant stints where each lap the times would come down a tenth or two.

 

I don't know what next season will be.  Just wanted to comment how depressing it's all become.  Next season could be worse again.  The only good aspect of it all, is that the cars are bottlenecked so much that it brings them all closer together.. more like a spec series.  That's a good thing in one way.. but a bad thing in another.

 

There will be one big upside next season.. regardless of the quality of the racing itself.  The order will change around a lot in the first 5 or 6 races in the season.  Everyone will be watching and wanting to know if Ferrari can win, or Redbull will win, or McLaren or Mercedes.. and with each new race or set of updates the order will be changing around a lot.  That part will be interesting but the managing of the pace, will be less so (for me).  It's become so easy for teams to manage drivers order with strategies too.. it's become so much more like a chess match.. from the pitwall as opposed to the fastest drivers driving as fast as they can to win.  It's not surprising that the team principals could love it.. as opposed to the drivers themselves.

 

Kimi vs Alonso could be tasty.  And also Nico and Lewis.  The racing itself might not be so bad, but I have a feeling after a few months.. it could become quite old.. and become all about your driver/team winning and little else to enjoy other than that.  I prefer a brand of racing where drivers are always at risk of hitting the wall, or doing into the gravel because they are pushing the limits too much.. as opposed to driving below certain times, with more risk of going off due to falling asleep.  Circumstances and stars have to align for there to be true excitement.. but sometimes the final stints aren't so bad.  Every now and then there are great moments.  It's been bad enough the last 4 seasons though.. that's the problem.  Because these regs seem to go further in that direction.



#12 Kristian

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 13:58

I think it might be risky to save ERS-K to use it for defending, I believe that ERS-K will be reset at the start of each lap the same as it has been with KERS. On the other hand, if the recharging was insufficient, there may not be much available for use.

 

What is certain is that DRS will be much more effective than in previous years.

 

I thought ERS was going to be incorporated with the engine power, thus not actually 'push to pass'? Or have I understood that wrong? (I can't find the source I gathered that from at the moment) 



#13 BillBald

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 14:14

I thought ERS was going to be incorporated with the engine power, thus not actually 'push to pass'? Or have I understood that wrong? (I can't find the source I gathered that from at the moment) 

 

You are right, there is no separate button for the driver to push to invoke ERS.

 

It will actually depend on the design team. One very plausible suggestion is that ERS will mostly be used to smooth the throttle map.

 

But it is likely that designers will arrange things so that full ERS usage will kick in when the throttle is fully depressed - what you might call 'overtaking mode'. For most of the time, drivers will not be flooring the pedal, because that would probably use too much fuel as well as all the ERS.



#14 Clatter

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 14:23

DRS will be a lot more effective on most tracks, since there will no longer be the problem of hitting the limiter. The same thing applies to getting a tow outside of the DRS zones.

 

I think overtaking really will become too easy, this may lead to a reduction in the DRS zones.

 

Driving to a 'fuel delta' is a non-issue, it's not at all the same as driving to a delta to look after the tyres. A driver can be pushing 100% without using more fuel, it will just be up to his RE to keep him informed (or they may put helpful lights on the steering wheel). Any driver who is undisciplined enough to use extra fuel will pay the price later in the race. If a driver has confidence in his own abilities, why wouldn't he find the pace in himself rather than by using too much fuel?

How is that possible?



#15 Clatter

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 14:23

I thought ERS was going to be incorporated with the engine power, thus not actually 'push to pass'? Or have I understood that wrong? (I can't find the source I gathered that from at the moment) 

Your right. 



#16 SenorSjon

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 14:40

DRS will be a lot more effective on most tracks, since there will no longer be the problem of hitting the limiter. The same thing applies to getting a tow outside of the DRS zones.

 

I think overtaking really will become too easy, this may lead to a reduction in the DRS zones.

 

Driving to a 'fuel delta' is a non-issue, it's not at all the same as driving to a delta to look after the tyres. A driver can be pushing 100% without using more fuel, it will just be up to his RE to keep him informed (or they may put helpful lights on the steering wheel). Any driver who is undisciplined enough to use extra fuel will pay the price later in the race. If a driver has confidence in his own abilities, why wouldn't he find the pace in himself rather than by using too much fuel?

When he is coasting or short-shifting to save fuel, it is never 100%. I hate those RE messages the whole time telling the driver what to do as if it were driver lessons or satnav.

 

The worry is that the fuel flow is to limited and that some cars would have trouble seeing the end of the race. Having only 5 engines for the whole season is also a guarantee for empty practice sessions.



#17 BillBald

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 15:58

How is that possible?

 

Braking as late as possible, carrying maximum speed at the apex, getting the power down early.

 

It's on the straights where he won't be flat out, except when overtaking or defending.

 

Will you be able to tell if a driver eases back on the throttle, when no other driver is close to him?



#18 BillBald

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 16:13

When he is coasting or short-shifting to save fuel, it is never 100%. I hate those RE messages the whole time telling the driver what to do as if it were driver lessons or satnav.

 

The worry is that the fuel flow is to limited and that some cars would have trouble seeing the end of the race. Having only 5 engines for the whole season is also a guarantee for empty practice sessions.

 

It will be up to the driver to avoid getting into the situation where he has used too much fuel, and is forced to take extreme fuel-saving measures.

 

Just backing off the throttle slightly, when not actually fighting for position, should be enough in normal circumstances. If the engineers do a good job, the combination of ERS and turbo engine should give the driver all the power he can actually use, most of the time.



#19 Clatter

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 16:22

Braking as late as possible, carrying maximum speed at the apex, getting the power down early.

 

It's on the straights where he won't be flat out, except when overtaking or defending.

 

Will you be able to tell if a driver eases back on the throttle, when no other driver is close to him?

Probably not, but then he won't be giving 100% will he? And how does the first bit save any fuel?



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#20 Clatter

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 16:23

It will be up to the driver to avoid getting into the situation where he has used too much fuel, and is forced to take extreme fuel-saving measures.

 

Just backing off the throttle slightly, when not actually fighting for position, should be enough in normal circumstances. If the engineers do a good job, the combination of ERS and turbo engine should give the driver all the power he can actually use, most of the time.

This is at odds with what you said previously. How does a driver who is giving 100% not use more fuel?



#21 BillBald

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 16:48

It seems that I'm not making myself clear.

 

Drivers may have to back off from full power on the straights, when not actually fighting for position. But they will be at 100% when braking as late as possible, taking the corner, and putting the power down. Putting the power down will be more difficult with harder tyres, no EBD or similar, and an engine with more torque at lower revs.

 

So the demands on the driver's skill will be higher than in recent years, and we are likely to see much more of the rear end stepping out. IMO the racing will be more exciting to watch. Drivers will be pushing as hard as they can if the tyres are solid, trying to make up ground in the twisty bits so that they don't have to use too much fuel on the straights to keep up.

 

And the fact that drivers may be backing off the throttle towards the end of the straights, or actually lifting and coasting if they got it wrong earlier in the race, doesn't seem to me to affect the spectacle at all. It does add a dimension of intelligent management of the fuel, which could lead to dramatic position changes near the end of races. But these wouldn't be in any way artificial, they would be the playing-out of the strategy choices which drivers and teams had made.

 

FIA are getting it very wrong with most of their rule changes, but the new engine and chassis rules might just be what we need.



#22 Clatter

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 17:00

It seems that I'm not making myself clear.

 

Drivers may have to back off from full power on the straights, when not actually fighting for position. But they will be at 100% when braking as late as possible, taking the corner, and putting the power down. Putting the power down will be more difficult with harder tyres, no EBD or similar, and an engine with more torque at lower revs.

 

So the demands on the driver's skill will be higher than in recent years, and we are likely to see much more of the rear end stepping out. IMO the racing will be more exciting to watch. Drivers will be pushing as hard as they can if the tyres are solid, trying to make up ground in the twisty bits so that they don't have to use too much fuel on the straights to keep up.

 

And the fact that drivers may be backing off the throttle towards the end of the straights, or actually lifting and coasting if they got it wrong earlier in the race, doesn't seem to me to affect the spectacle at all. It does add a dimension of intelligent management of the fuel, which could lead to dramatic position changes near the end of races. But these wouldn't be in any way artificial, they would be the playing-out of the strategy choices which drivers and teams had made.

 

FIA are getting it very wrong with most of their rule changes, but the new engine and chassis rules might just be what we need.

OK, but I don't really think that's much different to the way it is now.



#23 DanardiF1

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 18:24

Watch any of Alain Prost's wins from 1984-1987... that is how to win a Grand Prix in 2014.



#24 demet06

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 18:39

When the cars hit the track for testing, we'll all complain how ugly they are. The drivers will complain about how difficult they are to drive with all the new systems. After about 3 or 4 races, nobody will remember what the previous generation of cars looked like. Only when looking at "Classic GP's" will we think how old fashioned they looked. 

On the driving side I think it will be interesting when they get on a wet track with all of the torque they're talking about. Jenson Button was reckoning that there was loads of wheelspin on the simulator in most of the gears. 



#25 billm99uk

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 19:13

"Fuel-saving" races have been pretty much standard in Indycars for some years now - seems to vary a lot from track to track though (maybe someone with a better technical understanding of the phenomenon than I could explain). They're generally not any better to watch than "driving to delta" races and I certainly wouldn't describe the participants as driving at 100%, though no doubt it has it's difficulties. The only time they get exciting is when the alternate strategies aren't too far different, and you get the fuel-savers desperately trying to hang on as those driving at 100% but doing one more stop come back at them. If the fuel-saving strategy is clearly the best then it's dullsville, I'm afraid.

#26 BillBald

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 22:36

 

On the driving side I think it will be interesting when they get on a wet track with all of the torque they're talking about. Jenson Button was reckoning that there was loads of wheelspin on the simulator in most of the gears. 

 

I think the cars might be challenging to drive in the dry, let alone on a wet track.

 

Of course after a year or two the designers will have brought back the downforce, Pirelli will go softer on the tyres...



#27 Peat

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 08:53

"Fuel-saving" races have been pretty much standard in Indycars for some years now

 

I'm glad you brought that up.

The standard 'fuel-saving' driving technique is IndyCar is coast-braking. The driver lifts off much earlier, brakes less and carries but same amount of speed through the corner. How this will be different with Pirelli's and the hybrid harvesting, i don't know. I would say, at a guess, that the brakes would be used very little and the harvesting turned right up to maximise mileage.

 

I don't think we'll have a situation of people going half-throttle on straights unless its the final few laps and it's getting tight on fuel. 



#28 billm99uk

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 10:11

he standard 'fuel-saving' driving technique is IndyCar is coast-braking. The driver lifts off much earlier, brakes less and carries but same amount of speed through the corner. How this will be different with Pirelli's and the hybrid harvesting, i don't know. I would say, at a guess, that the brakes would be used very little and the harvesting turned right up to maximise mileage.

 

I don't think we'll have a situation of people going half-throttle on straights unless its the final few laps and it's getting tight on fuel. 

 

Yeah, seems to take place mostly into the corners. Partly a tactical decision as backing off on the straights would leave you far more vulnerable to passes, I imagine. Then again, maybe it saves less fuel?



#29 rasul

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 10:53

Watch any of Alain Prost's wins from 1984-1987... that is how to win a Grand Prix in 2014.

 

d13abu1814.jpg

I guess Vettel thinks the same.  :D Luckily for him, Prost is an ambassador to Renault and can give him some handy advice.



#30 David1976

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 11:18

I am going to buck the trend and say that I think the racing will be good.

 

My own feeling is that the team with the best ERS will have an opportunity to dominate.  I cannot see the internal combustion engines being that different from each other but the ERS will help by saving fuel (through it's power efficiency).  This could allow huge slugs of extra fuel being used to overtake if required.  This could make it exciting, especially when tyres become an issue.

 

My only caveat to this would be if Renault software advantages allow Red Bull to continue with their tyre slip management advantages relative to the other teams.  With all the torque next year that could also be key to both saving fuel and tyres.



#31 Risil

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 11:33

"Fuel-saving" races have been pretty much standard in Indycars for some years now - seems to vary a lot from track to track though (maybe someone with a better technical understanding of the phenomenon than I could explain). They're generally not any better to watch than "driving to delta" races and I certainly wouldn't describe the participants as driving at 100%, though no doubt it has it's difficulties. The only time they get exciting is when the alternate strategies aren't too far different, and you get the fuel-savers desperately trying to hang on as those driving at 100% but doing one more stop come back at them. If the fuel-saving strategy is clearly the best then it's dullsville, I'm afraid.

 

True. What I enjoyed most about the Mid-Ohio race was the way the boring fuel savers (all the so-called frontrunners) got their sums wrong and were utterly vanquished by Kimball, Pag and co.


Edited by Risil, 12 December 2013 - 11:33.


#32 billm99uk

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 14:17

True. What I enjoyed most about the Mid-Ohio race was the way the boring fuel savers (all the so-called frontrunners) got their sums wrong and were utterly vanquished by Kimball, Pag and co.

 

That was pretty funny!



#33 BillBald

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 14:26

It's been a long time since I watched Indycar, so I can't really comment...

 

But it's hard to see why drivers who are saving fuel would not be pushing hard in the corners, unless they are saving tyres as well.