87 replies to this topic

[LoudHoward]

Voted no. No particular reason, it's just a pit board that has moved along with technology. I'm not at all against the transfer of information between driver/car and team.

[travbrad]

Don't see any need for it, F1 ran just fine for decades without it.

 

F1 ran "just fine" without wings and downforce too, should we ban those as well?

[PayasYouRace]

I'd rather ban live telemetry. Allow the teams to collect the data to a data logger and download it after the session of course. Of course I would imagine driver workload would be pushed through the roof.

[sosidge]

F1 ran "just fine" without wings and downforce too, should we ban those as well?

 

Why not? You'd have overtaking without gimmicks if you did.

[Clatter]

I'd rather ban live telemetry. Allow the teams to collect the data to a data logger and download it after the session of course. Of course I would imagine driver workload would be pushed through the roof.

Your kidding I hope.

[PayasYouRace]

Your kidding I hope.

 

I should have elaborated on that point. Currently the cars have several options for adjustment by the driver. You only have to look at the complexity of the steering wheel controls to see it. Much of this has been brought about by the ban on pit-car telemetry. The driver isn't monitoring these variables. The team is and they then relay the required adjustments to him via the radio. If car-pit telemetry were banned, then the driver would only be able to adjust what he can monitor himself. I forsee two directions can be taken:

 

1 - The cars become simpler or more automated.

 

2 - The teams give the drivers even more displays and controls so that they don't lose that adjustability.

 

Knowing how F1 teams work and wearing my cynical hat, option 2 seems more likely.

[Andy35]

Amazing how is it a safety issue when in MOTOGP where it is far more dangerous they manage without.

 

Saying radio is needed because it is a safety issue is silly.  In fact you could argue that chatting to someone on the radio actually makes it more dangerous than the very rare event that the car is on fire and yet the driver cannot see it in his mirrors and has to be told by radio.  

 

I'm all for it.  Puts more on the driver again rather than the engineers.  

 

Andy

[ZZei]

I think what the OP is trying to address is the drivers need to be more in control. Banning the radio would be way too much but at least I belong to the camp which likes to see which driver can cope with different situations the best and not who has the best engineer. I think sadly nowadays the engineers can see so much from the data the drivers skills lose their importance. Back in the days the driver who understood the tires the best had an advantage. Today the driver might have the advantage for one weekend and by the next weekend the engineers have studied the tires and will be constantly telling the teammate what to do and what not to do. I hope next year will make a little change and the more experienced and talented drivers will prove their worth.

[PayasYouRace]

Amazing how is it a safety issue when in MOTOGP where it is far more dangerous they manage without.

 

Saying radio is needed because it is a safety issue is silly.  In fact you could argue that chatting to someone on the radio actually makes it more dangerous than the very rare event that the car is on fire and yet the driver cannot see it in his mirrors and has to be told by radio.  

 

I'm all for it.  Puts more on the driver again rather than the engineers.  

 

Andy

 

I think the safety issue is more about warning drivers about hazards on the track or changing conditions more than whether something is wrong with the car. Though it's also much harder to tell if part of your car you're sitting in is damaged than a bike you're riding on.

[ANF]

I voted no to radio silence, simply because I fear that it would be impossible for the FIA to police.

[Fastcake]

I voted no to radio silence, simply because I fear that it would be impossible for the FIA to police.

 

Um, that would be pretty easy...

[DampMongoose]

Anything that results in a reduction of Christian Horners bland comments.... "Well done you've won the x gp" as though the driver doesn't know where he is bullshit is great for f1! Just ban telemetry, drs and toy engines and we're looking good!

[ANF]

Um, that would be pretty easy...

How would they do it?

[Fastcake]

How would they do it?

 

By banning radios in the car?

[Nobody]

The onus on the driver to make crucial decisions without the pitwall far outweighs any entertainment value of radios.

[DampMongoose]

I think the safety issue is more about warning drivers about hazards on the track or changing conditions more than whether something is wrong with the car. Though it's also much harder to tell if part of your car you're sitting in is damaged than a bike you're riding on.

 

That's what eyeballs are for... yellow lights, yellow flags, blue flags, red flags all transfer an image to the drivers brain when using them.

 

Let the Steward have a radio to all cars for the odd occasion a nutter runs around on the track if it makes people happier but no need for the teams to talk.  It would be better if the teams were not permitted to tell the drivers what fuel mix/brake balance/KERS deployment to use. 

[SenorSjon]

They could always ban it for a season and try it. They seem willing to try more crack pot ideas than that so lets see lol

 

Only for the last race of course, The Magnificent SuperDuper ExtraGrand Prix of Abu Dhabi.

 

Yep, I think disallowing telemetry would be a far better solution in "giving the race more into drivers' hands". Radio is still needed for some practical and safety issues.

 

That. If only the driver could get the input, you would get road assistance calls from the drivers:

Driver: "there is a yellow light flashing with check engine"

RE: "... do you have your membership card?"

 

Telemetry from pit to car was banned 20 years ago. Perhaps the other way should count to. Then the driver has to make decisions on tire pressures etc.

[kraduk]

I think it would be a stupid rule as you couldn't enforce it without safety issues.

 

For axample the team notices the car is broken, burning, engine is about to blow and so on, would they be allowed to tell the driver? Damp track, would the drivers be allowed to inform what ryres they want? Would the drivers be allowed to tell they are coming in for new tyres?

 

Either you have a true safetyrelated problem with drivers not getting information or you have a situation where you are allowed to have some messages in which case drivers can talk in code and the rule is impossible to implement as all messages have to be analyzed for why they were sent. A sure way to get either somebody killed or a lot of "will be investigated after race"

 

if the pit wall can detect such things via telemetry then a warning light or automated shutdown sequence can be built in without the need for full comunication

[redreni]

Anything that results in a reduction of Christian Horners bland comments.... "Well done you've won the x gp" as though the driver doesn't know where he is bullshit is great for f1! Just ban telemetry, drs and toy engines and we're looking good!

 

Banning radios is a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut, though, isn't it? Why not just ban Christian Horner? ;-)

[kraduk]

Entertainment aside radio broadcasting allows to the drivers to be informed about dangers on track.

 

I think the drivers rely on flags more than radio as the teams wont know there is an incident or where it is and be able to get a coherant message to the driver for 10s of seconds and that can be a good chunk of the track gone

[DampMongoose]

Banning radios is a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut, though, isn't it? Why not just ban Christian Horner? ;-)

 

I must admit I went for the sledgehammer route rather than the FIA's method of tiny adhesive plaster on a decapitation.

 

You're right though a ban on Christian Horner talking at any point would be most welcome.   He's like some video game team boss... "Well done you've just won the <insert voice over track here> Grand Prix. Congratulations."

[Fastcake]

I think the drivers rely on flags more than radio as the teams wont know there is an incident or where it is and be able to get a coherant message to the driver for 10s of seconds and that can be a good chunk of the track gone

 

Not entirely. A yellow flag can mean anything from a car parked off the track to bodywork on the racing line.

[DampMongoose]

Not entirely. A yellow flag can mean anything from a car parked off the track to

bodywork on the racing line.

 

Doesn't matter these days, with the drivers being so immune to death don't slow down regardless. 

[sleighty]

Yes Ban It!

 

You just need a race control radio link for Charlie to explain things for safety reasons if required. 

 

The drivers would have to strategize their own race when it came to tyres for a start! The pit wall have been effectively driving the cars for the drivers for far too long. Let the drivers think for themselves and decide how to race. 

 

For christs sake teams are now saying 'dont overtake, stay 2 seconds behind' etc.

 

Get rid of it and lets see more of the driver personalities in the cockpit and out on the track. Everything keeps getting stifled in F1, soon we will just decide who wins by a computer programme saying so and the engineers will be the only people who have a say in the race result.

 

Its a world drivers championship first, constructors/teams second. 

[bourbon]

No.  It is necessary to an ever evolving F1.  Rather lose the fans that would suppress innovation any more than it already is, or we will lose innovator interest in our sport and then lose the sport.

[Fastcake]

Doesn't matter these days, with the drivers being so immune to death don't slow down regardless. 

 

They do slow down if there's a possibility they'll be out of the race.

[DampMongoose]

No because at the moment they are told the reason they barely lift at times... without radios they'd have to.

[Jon83]

Anything that results in a reduction of Christian Horners bland comments.... "Well done you've won the x gp" as though the driver doesn't know where he is bullshit is great for f1! Just ban telemetry, drs and toy engines and we're looking good!

 

It doesn't need to be broadcasted though. Just like the ever boring Vettel-Rocky 'be careful Sebastian' rubbish we hear every weekend. 

 

Of all the things people want banned, I find this pretty bemusing. Thankfully, I'm sure there is no chance of it happening. 

[DampMongoose]

No. It is necessary to an ever evolving F1. Rather lose the fans that would suppress innovation any more than it already is, or we will lose innovator interest in our sport and then lose the sport.

Most are wanting this because f1 rules currently stifle innovative thinking massively. Those who've followed f1 for more than 10 years will suggest we've already lost it

[racerbaz]

Few team sports are enhanced, in my view, by preventing people who are on the same team from communicating with each other. I don't really understand what's undesirable about any of the radio messages we have now?

Radio silence within a team is of no use to the race-fan. Let 'em gabble to their hearts content amongst themselves.

What is of use is radio silence between the driver and his team  - this would help undermine team orders which is a cancer attacking the spectacle of competition and racing.

Please don't tell me team orders have always existed in motor racing as I have been following and loving motor racing since 1957.

Without direct driver-to-team radio contact there will be more thinking-on-your feet from the driver, more mistakes and as a result more incident, competition and unpredicability.

Safety is no reason for having radio contact with the driver as it is already catered for by flags, warning lights etc, etc......

Strategy on the part of teams has now become the only story in F1 racing - it's a totally geek-driven bore.

Radios allow teams to keep a suffocating wet blanket over all that happens and should go immediately to restore racing to the real stars of the show - not the cars but the drivers.

Go read Richard Williams (Guardian's Chief Sports Editor) in December 14th Guardian - 'Cheap Tricks which point to the fact that F1 has lost it's nerve'.

[smitten]

F1 races will be shambolic and look like amateur hour if radio's were taken away tomorrow.

No they won't. Drivers would race what they can see, not what the computer tells them.

"Get rid of the radios. I want the drivers to make the decisions. etc" - That was all well and good when the driver had a steering wheel, 3 pedals, gearstick and a couple of gauges. [/size]

It is substantially the same now with a steering wheel, 2 pedals, 2 paddles and some indicator lights. The many dials are fluff to help micromange strategy...

[f1RacingForever]

How will Massa know how much speed to take in corners? How will he drive?   Seriously, it would be interesting to see how it would play out if they experimented with this idea for a race or so. They would never do it but it would still be interesting. At the very least we might be able to get a real sense of how much these drivers really do/do not rely on info from the pits. Could make for an interesting race.

[SenorSjon]

If you ban car to pit telemetry you will have the same effect. When the engineer doesn't know, he can't tell anything to the driver, only strategic calls can be made. Pit to car was banned long ago because the active suspension et all was bringing RC cars closer than ever.

[PayasYouRace]

Radio silence within a team is of no use to the race-fan. Let 'em gabble to their hearts content amongst themselves.

 

I agree.

 

What is of use is radio silence between the driver and his team  - this would help undermine team orders which is a cancer attacking the spectacle of competition and racing.

Please don't tell me team orders have always existed in motor racing as I have been following and loving motor racing since 1957.

 

That's odd that you've been watching for a good 60 years and have never noticed that team orders are a major part of what is essentially a team sport. Bannig radio communication won't change much. If a driver is going to ignore orders they're going to, and if they're going to obey. Didn't matter for Vettel this year or for Pironi in 1982, or whatever. 

 

Without direct driver-to-team radio contact there will be more thinking-on-your feet from the driver, more mistakes and as a result more incident, competition and unpredicability.

 

I agree, but you'd still get plenty of strategy calls from the pits via the pit boards or whatever. However without the radio then the team cannot react to a driver's decision either.

 

Safety is no reason for having radio contact with the driver as it is already catered for by flags, warning lights etc, etc......

 

But you'd have a hard time justifying a change that would make things much less safe. Flags and warning lights don't give as much information as a radio message. Perhaps the solution is having a single channel from race control?

 

Strategy on the part of teams has now become the only story in F1 racing - it's a totally geek-driven bore.

 

It's a tecnology driven sport. What do you expect? Do you want to ban anyone with an engineering or science degree to maintain some sporting "purity"? Hell, F1 is the ultimate geek sport, for both participants and us geeky types who need a sport like that.

 

Radios allow teams to keep a suffocating wet blanket over all that happens and should go immediately to restore racing to the real stars of the show - not the cars but the drivers.

 

That's a surprising effect of a communication aid that's been in the sport for about 25 years now. When did the racing stop being about the drivers in your book?

 

Go read Richard Williams (Guardian's Chief Sports Editor) in December 14th Guardian - 'Cheap Tricks which point to the fact that F1 has lost it's nerve'.

 

Can you summarise it succintly for us?

Edited by PayasYouRace, 18 December 2013 - 08:33.

[LuckyStrike1]

Why ban it? What's the harm in having team and driver communicate verbally with each other during a race? 

 

For the broadcast it sometimes obviously adds to the dynamic of the race. Are we afraid that an engineer or a driver will say **** over the radio? 

[Rinehart]

Why ban it? What's the harm in having team and driver communicate verbally with each other during a race? 

 

The harm is that over a lap an F1 car spews out tonnes of sensor data. This data is collected every test, practice, qualy and race lap. It is used in conjunction with a mountain of further data drawn from factory simulation and modelling. It is analysed and it is used in real time to establish the optimal strategies and for the driver optimal gear, throttle, brake, fuel and tyre usage etc. So the problem with P-T-C-R is that drivers are driving to such exacting instruction, both before the lights go out and in real time as the race unfolds. I think it would be better if the only way a driver knew what condition his tyres were in were by feeling it (and it would be up to him to know how hard to push), and only knew how much fuel he had left by looking at a reading on the dash (and it would be up to him to conserve or not). 

 

Surely everyone can see the harm to removing variables, essentially that of the drivers craft and feel?

[Jon83]

Why ban it? What's the harm in having team and driver communicate verbally with each other during a race? 

 

For the broadcast it sometimes obviously adds to the dynamic of the race. Are we afraid that an engineer or a driver will say **** over the radio? 

 

There is absolutely no harm in it whatsoever.

[Coops3]

I'm not totally against the idea of banning all communication with drivers, but if they'd still be allowed to communicate via the pit boards, this would be a bit of a step back technologically, which isn't what F1 should be about IMO.