148 replies to this topic

[Zava]

So here we go, the annual TP votes are online.

This year we've got no big surprises, actually the list looks pretty similar to the WDC standings when Raikkönen was still here, with a positive correction for Hulkenberg for shining in a midfield car, and a negative correction for Massa and Webber.

 

2013 top10 drivers:

 

1 Sebastian Vettel 248
2 Fernando Alonso 213
3 Kimi Raikkonen 158
4 Lewis Hamilton 117
5 Nico Rosberg 95
6 Romain Grosjean 76
7 Nico Hulkenberg 68
8 Mark Webber     66
9 Jenson Button 24
10 Felipe Massa 14

 

Maximum possible score is 275, so that means Vettel is probably best for 8 TPs, second best for 1, and only third best for 2 (8*25 + 1*18 + 2*15 = 200 + 18 + 30 = 248), my guess is Domenicali put Alonso, while Boullier and Brawn both their drivers over him. Any guesses for the other drivers? 

[ensign14]

I think any poll which gives Massa 14 points is not worth the paper with which you would wipe your arse.

[st99]

Did the 11 TP vote? Because I think I remember that Toro Rosso's didn't vote some years.

Edited by st99, 12 December 2013 - 11:01.

[rasul]

Stefano likely had to vote for Kimi and Alonso. 

[SophieB]

Stefano likely had to vote for Kimi and Alonso. 

 

Why? It's a secret ballot.

[ArkZ]

@Zava it's not calculating 

Vettel points works but Alonso not. Vettel got 8 TP 1st pick this leave 3 TP 1st picks

3*25 + 8*18 = 219

2*25 + 9*18 = 212

Alonso got 213 so he have to got all left 1st TP picks, 

3*25 + 7*18 + 12 = 213

Vettel and Alonso swept all 1st picks

 

                             1st pick        2nd pick        3rd pick      4th pick

Vettel (option 1)       8                  1                    2                 0

Vettel  (option 2)       8                  2                    0                 1

Alonso (option 1)      3                  7                    0                 1

Alonso  (option 2)     3                  6                    2                 0

 

             

 

Vettel had to get 8 picks for 1st, and Alonso 3 picks for 1st, because there is not enough points on the table even with all 2nd picks for them.

 

 

This leave  0 pick for 1st, 3 picks for 2nd, 9 picks for 3rd, 10 picks for 4th and 11 for the rest  (calculated with Vettel and Alonso first options)

 

for Raikkonen it works with ( speculation, I didin't calculated for the others)

                   1st pick       2nd pick       3rd pick       4th pick     5th pick

Raikkonen      0                   3                 4                  2              2

Raikkonen      0                   2                 6                  1              2

Raikkonen      0                   1                 8                  0              2

Edited by ArkZ, 12 December 2013 - 11:54.

[rasul]

Why? It's a secret ballot.

Family loyalty. 

[Zava]

Did the 11 TP vote? Because I think I remember that Toro Rosso's didn't vote some years.

deffo all 11 voted, otherwise Vettel could not receive 248 points.

[Francesc]

Massa in there, Webber too despite not winning a single race with the car that won 13 races...

[st99]

This is the third time Vettel gets voted best driver, isn' it? I think I remember he was also chosen in 2009 and 2011 but I'm not sure.

[sopa]

Gives an insight into how Hulkenberg is rated as we have been complaining that he can't get into a top team. In forumers' rating he was often in first three or four, but here he is well behind Raikkonen, which is how Raikkonen was a preferred hiring into a top team. Also Grosjean is ahead of Hulkenberg, so the Frenchman made big enough impression this season not to let Hulk steal his seat, even if Maldonado was always going to take the other seat.

 

However, makes Whitmarsh' thinking curious, because clearly he doesn't rate Hulkenberg much, yet in general team principals' view he had a much better season than either Button or Perez, so based on that worth hiring above both of them into your team.

[EthanM]

Brawn probably voted Hamilton-Rosberg-Vettel- Alonso

Domenicali probably voted Alonso-Raikkonen-Vettel

Bouillier (or Whitmarsh) probably voted Alonso-Vettel-Raikkonen

 

rest voted Vettel first Alonso Second

Edited by EthanM, 12 December 2013 - 11:12.

[Zava]

@Zava it's not calculating 

Vettel points works but Alonso not. Vettel got 8 TP 1st pick this leave 3 TP 1st picks

3*25 + 8*18 = 219

2*25 + 9*18 = 212

Alonso got 213 so he have to got all left 1st TP picks, 

3*25 + 7*18 + 12 = 213

Vettel and Alonso swept all 1st picks

you're right   I did not go as far as calculating the others to see if my guesses can be right.

[EthanM]

This is the third time Vettel gets voted best driver, isn' it? I think I remember he was also chosen in 2009 and 2011 but I'm not sure.

 

yup Vettel got 2009-2011-2013, Alonso got 2010-2012

[Rinehart]

Agree with this in general. On a thread a few weeks ago I had the same top 10, only Jenson and Romain higher, Nico and Kimi lower. 

 

Fair enough people can quibble about a few minor details here and there, but I don't think fans are in a position to fundamentally disagree with the combined opinion of 10 TP's. 

[kimister]

I agree with TPs' list. generally. Vettel is clear no1, Alonso 2 and Kimi 3 , but with less difference between two actually, then Lewis, Nico, but Hulk should have been definetely above Romain .

[rasul]

Gives an insight into how Hulkenberg is rated as we have been complaining that he can't get into a top team. In forumers' rating he was often in first three or four, but here he is well behind Raikkonen, which is how Raikkonen was a preferred hiring into a top team. Also Grosjean is ahead of Hulkenberg, so the Frenchman made big enough impression this season not to let Hulk steal his seat, even if Maldonado was always going to take the other seat.

 

Yes, it's clear that Hulk isn't rated nearly as highly by the team principals as people think. Drivers from mid-table teams can be and were rated higher than that if they impressed the team principals.

In comparison, 2008:

1. Lewis Hamilton (88 points)

2. Felipe Massa (86 points)

3= Fernando Alonso (50 points)

3= Robert Kubica (50 points)

5. Sebastian Vettel (37 points)

6. Kimi Raikkonen (27 points)

7. Timo Glock (13 points)

8. Heikki Kovalainen (10 points)

9. Nick Heidfield (4 points)

10= Adrian Sutil (3 points)

10= Jarno Trulli (3 points) 

 

So basically Hulk is rated by the team principals  like Timo Glock rather than like Vettel. 

Edited by rasul, 12 December 2013 - 11:43.

[ensign14]

 

Fair enough people can quibble about a few minor details here and there, but I don't think fans are in a position to fundamentally disagree with the combined opinion of 10 TP's. 

 

Are these the same TPs who voted in favour of double points for the final race?  In which case, yes.  Yes we can.

 

I mean, just look at the logic.  Webber is in a car that has won 13 races this season.  He has won none.  Yet he has 66 points.  If he's that good, why aren't they falling over themselves to give him a drive?

 

Then you've got Ricciardo.  He's nowhere.  Yet Red Bull gave him a drive.  How the hell does THAT work?  RB told us all he was the best choice for the drive, yet, according to RB under this vote, he isn't.  Indeed Red Bull's own team principal does not rate him amongst the top three drivers, unless they don't vote for their own.  But, indeed, none of the others do, which suggests none of them would have given Ricciardo a drive.  So either the RB team principal is an idiot for picking a driver nobody else would have touched with a bargepole, or the other team principals are idiots for not seeing what RB see in him.  Either way, it shows that it is illogical to trust what team principals say.

 

And on top of that is the complete "coincidence" that the TPs' top 10 is the WDC's top 10.  Nobody saw anything in the lower ranks?  Or was the voting restricted to the top 10 in the title race?  Or, which seems most likely, the task was fobbed off to the office junior who just googled the top ten and pretty much copied it?  There is a sort of logic in the top 10 drivers being in the best teams, but, come on, surely Ricciardo or Bianchi, at least, did a better job than Massa or Webber.  Indeed, di Resta's best result was as good as Button's, despite being in an inferior car.  How come then Button gets a hatful of points?

 

If we are to trust TP opinions, then, the only saving grace might be if the poll was restricted to the top 10 in the world title.   That way it makes sense that Massa gets 14, because he could scarcely get any fewer.  But what that would also mean is that the poll was meaningless. 

[Rinehart]

Are these the same TPs who voted in favour of double points for the final race?  In which case, yes.  Yes we can.

 

I mean, just look at the logic.  Webber is in a car that has won 13 races this season.  He has won none.  Yet he has 66 points.  If he's that good, why aren't they falling over themselves to give him a drive?

 

That is all I read I'm afraid.

 

1. The TP's, employees of the teams are voting for something in their employers commercial interests, quite different from a secret score of talent.

 

2. Its completely logical that Webber, despite not winning in a Red Bull this year, can be considered to have done as well as 14 other drivers had they been teammates alongside Vettel. Probably the TP's realise there is a LOT more to finishing 3rd in the championship, than you do. Meanwhile Webber turned down an approach from Ferrari as he wants to retire.

 

So yes, I completely stand by the statement that you can quibble, but to fundamentally disagree with the TP's probably exposes the fragility your own argument as demonstrated here. Its hardly a criticism that the TP's are a more credible judge than you - so don't be offended (certainly none intended)! 

[seahawk]

Good to see a fair and critical opinion on Hülkenberg´s performance. It is now obvious why he had to stay with a midfield team, because no TP thinks he is top quality driver.

[ensign14]

 

2. Its completely logical that Webber, despite not winning in a Red Bull this year, can be considered to have done as well as 14 other drivers had they been teammates alongside Vettel. Probably the TP's realise there is a LOT more to finishing 3rd in the championship, than you do. Meanwhile Webber turned down an approach from Ferrari as he wants to retire.

 

He only had 1 race in which he looked likely to beat Vettel.  Nobody else was so dominated by their team-mate.  Even Chilton put up a better fist of it.  Indeed I struggle to think of such a one-sided relationship in a leading team - it's back to Prost and Johansson, I think.

 

It would make sense had Vettel "won" this ranking by a massive margin, showing he was undisputably streets ahead of the opposition.  He didn't.

[Jon83]

Good to see a fair and critical opinion on Hülkenberg´s performance. It is now obvious why he had to stay with a midfield team, because no TP thinks he is top quality driver.

 

I don't think that is clear.

 

I think the position he got was fair. Look at those in front of him - they all won races and / or had regular podium finishes.

 

If Hulk had been behind others, it might support your post but he wasn't. If it is true Ferrari paid to make sure he didn't end the season with Lotus, why would they do that if they didn't rate him?

Edited by Jon83, 13 December 2013 - 13:15.

[Anderis]

This time (perhaps 1st time ever) I agree in almost 100% with that list. The only corrections I would make is to put Grosjean 1 or 2 places lower and Ricciardo instead of Massa in top10. But I'm surprised how close my opinion is to their.

[Anderis]

Good to see a fair and critical opinion on Hülkenberg´s performance. It is now obvious why he had to stay with a midfield team, because no TP thinks he is top quality driver.

He has been given a 7th place, so that's surely shows they think he deserves a top4 car? It's not like they rated anyone from midfield higher.

Edited by Anderis, 12 December 2013 - 12:23.

[Risil]

Not a very enlightening list. The five race winners occupy the top five places, and the two standout bests-of-the-rest come just behind them.

 

Odd that the performances that won Ricciardo a seat with the best team on the grid didn't merit a top 10 in the team principles' poll, though. Or perhaps not.

[Vesuvius]

not sure but wasnt this TP votes so that they cant vote for their own drivers? at least I remember reading so in the past...

[Group B]

Good to see a fair and critical opinion on Hülkenberg´s performance. It is now obvious why he had to stay with a midfield team, because no TP thinks he is top quality driver.

 

 

More clueless drivel; still sulking over reject di Resta, are we? He's behind 4 world champions, Rosberg and Grosjean, which is hardly damning, and in no way whatsover indicates that 'no TP thinks he's a top quality driver'. By your own reasoning the the TP's must reckon that your favourite superhero as unfit to even soil the paddock.

[ensign14]

 

Odd that the performances that won Ricciardo a seat with the best team on the grid didn't merit a top 10 in the team principles' poll, though. Or perhaps not.

 

If we are to take that seriously, it proves the point that Ricciardo was only chosen at RB to be Vettel's stooge.

[sennafan24]

My thoughts 

 

Top 2 are bang on. No debate or analysis needed from myself there.

 

Kimi being 3 by that margin is debatable, I think Lewis and Nico were just as good as him this year, I have not been as impressed with Kimi as others since his comeback, the latter part of this year Romain was matching him and beating him some weekends.

 

Webber has no place on this list in my view, Ricciardo, Bottas and Bianchi I would say had much better seasons in terms of relative pace Webber's qualifying was actually pretty strong in the latter part of 2013, but his race pace and starts were shocking at times. 

 

I can agree that Button and Hulk deserve to be on the list, both did pretty well with what they had this year, even if Button did drift of towards the end, Massa I could go either way, he did have a bit more pep in his step towards the end of the year, but his race trim left a lot to be desired on other race weekends.

[Risil]

If we are to take that seriously, it proves the point that Ricciardo was only chosen at RB to be Vettel's stooge.

 

Perez's season at Mclaren proves that you can't select midfield drivers based on eye-catching performances. So perhaps mediocre ones are in this year.

Edited by Risil, 12 December 2013 - 12:48.

[halifaxf1fan]

The list looks pretty good except for Hulkenburg, he should be in 4th place.  The two Mercedes drivers were underperformers this year and were only boosted by having the advantage of their mid season test session.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 12 December 2013 - 12:49.

[kosmos]

Expected winner and deserved. I'm really surprised by how close Alonso is too Vettel, MAssa should not be there at all, other drivers has done way better job than him to deserve a place in the top 10.

[boldhakka]

Usual nonsense. No self-respecting TP would sit down and think about the ranking in any detail. They would have gone with general impressions, mixed with loyalties and biased towards the most memorable or most recent races. 

[tifosiMac]

Raikkonen ahead of Hamilton? Hmmmm can't understand the reasoning behind that but fair enough.

[sennafan24]

Raikkonen ahead of Hamilton? Hmmmm can't understand the reasoning behind that but fair enough.

I can see the reasoning myself as Lewis was not that good this year, but neither was Kimi in my view. Both were around the same level in my opinion.

[Wander]

 

Yes, it's clear that Hulk isn't rated nearly as highly by the team principals as people think. Drivers from mid-table teams can be and were rated higher than that if they impressed the team principals.

In comparison, 2008:

1. Lewis Hamilton (88 points)

2. Felipe Massa (86 points)

3= Fernando Alonso (50 points)

3= Robert Kubica (50 points)

5. Sebastian Vettel (37 points)

6. Kimi Raikkonen (27 points)

7. Timo Glock (13 points)

8. Heikki Kovalainen (10 points)

9. Nick Heidfield (4 points)

10= Adrian Sutil (3 points)

10= Jarno Trulli (3 points) 

 

So basically Hulk is rated by the team principals  like Timo Glock rather than like Vettel. 

 

 

I don't think it's quite that simple. Vettel had the huge boost of winning a race and the benefit of Kimi having the worst year of his career.

 

Simply calculating percentages would place Hulk's 'rating' among team principals approximately in between 2008's Vettel and Glock. I think it's also worth noting that Hulk is still has multiple times the amount of points of drivers like Daniel Ricciardo, Pastor Maldonado, Sergio Perez, Jenson Button and Felipe Massa.

 

 

Calculation shows that a total of 32 points were awarded to drivers who didn't make it inside the top 10. My guess is that those points are fairly evenly spread out as no-one can have more than 13 points.

[ArkZ]

Hulk's position in team bosses vote:

2013 7th

2012 7th

2011 - (reserve driver)

2010 8th

[lbennie]

If we are to take that seriously, it proves the point that Ricciardo was only chosen at RB to be Vettel's stooge.

 

All it means is red bull think hes not amongst the best 3 at the moment. Which is perfectly logical.

 

They are all only voting for 3, not 10. Think about it.

[Oho]

Raikkonen ahead of Hamilton? Hmmmm can't understand the reasoning behind that but fair enough..

 

Well up to the point where his relationship with his soon to be former employer had deteriorated to borderline hostile the odds are he had generally speaking performed better than Hamilton.

[Oho]

All it means is red bull think hes not amongst the best 3 at the moment. Which is perfectly logical.

 

They are all only voting for 3, not 10. Think about it.

 

Yeah that's why Felipe Massa got 14 points......

[noikeee]

The only thing this tells us, like every year, is that the TPs can be easily influenced by the points table and each car's speed, like everyone else - see our "Voting Championship" in this forum which suffers from exactly the same problem. The rankings aren't wildly off at all, but get skewed by the conservative choices, ex. Hulk is conservatively a bit low and Webber conservatively a bit high. Also recent form registers too much - they suffer from "you're only as good as the last race" syndrome like everyone else does - otherwise Grosjean wouldn't be 6th way ahead of Button.

 

Like any poll of this kind it also gets less and less representative the further you go down in the list. Imagine Domenicali put Massa in like, 5th, one single vote like that would completely skew the results and put him ahead of someone else who everyone agreed was around 9th-10th best.

 

Fun exercise, but not the definitive judgement on ability. I would also say it's not the definitive judgement on how drivers are seen within the market, neither. It only takes one team rating one driver that nobody else does, for him to get a top seat. See Daniel Ricciardo and Kevin Magnussen - evidently other factors are at play (the desire to promote from within), and they have internal data on them that nobody else does, but that also kinda proves my point.

[KavB]

 

Kimi being 3 by that margin is debatable, I think Lewis and Nico were just as good as him this year, I have not been as impressed with Kimi as others since his comeback, the latter part of this year Romain was matching him and beating him some weekends.

 

Webber has no place on this list in my view, Ricciardo, Bottas and Bianchi I would say had much better seasons in terms of relative pace Webber's qualifying was actually pretty strong in the latter part of 2013, but his race pace and starts were shocking at times. 

 

It's hard to gauge if Grosjean had the better of Kimi because Raikkonen left 2 races early. But Grosjean only started outpacing him from Singapore onwards. He would have beat him there, he beat him in India and Japan but Kimi finished in front of Grosjean in Korea and outqualified him by a decent amount in Abu Dhabi before getting that penalty. I don't think that should detract from Raikkonen's season as he has comprehensively beaten Grosjean in the points despite missing two races. Towards the end of the season, Alonso was being outqualified by Massa frequently. I think he was outqualified 6 times from 7 races, but it did not detract from his stellar season.

 

Also I agree Webber should not be on the list. I put him on my top 10 but I see now I made a mistake. It's inexcusable to not finish ahead of your teammate even once in an entire year. I believe he performed at a similar level to Massa relative to their teammates but Felipe is coming across worse because his car was not fast enough for a driver on their level to comfortably finish on the podium. I think if Webber was in the Ferrari he would have been scoring minor points like Felipe.

 

As someone has said, the problem with these polls is that it is difficult to really rate someone whose car is not fast enough to be in the points at every race. Even the most informed people, the team principals, sometimes do not see past the final standings. Grosjean is only in the top 10 because he turned his season around and was able to get on the podium, but that is only because his car was fast enough to do that. If the Lotus was as quick as the Force India, it is arguable that we would not have seen Grosjean anywhere near the top 10 despite occasionally outpacing Raikkonen and that's because he would have been finishing 6th at max which is not eye catching.

[seahawk]

Hulk's position in team bosses vote:

2013 7th

2012 7th

2011 - (reserve driver)

2010 8th

 

And that nobody from the top 4 signed him speaks equally clearly about the value they see in Hulk.

[AnR]

Funny how people here trying to convince that they now the rates better than the teamprincipals :-)

 

I fully agree with top 3, then it's harder

[bourbon]

No surprises here. 

[rasul]

I don't think it's quite that simple. Vettel had the huge boost of winning a race and the benefit of Kimi having the worst year of his career.

 

 

 

Kimi having the worst year of his career in 2008 was still not much worse than Lewis and Rosberg's performance this year(who had their ups and downs too) and certainly no worse than  Romain's. It's not like he didn't win any races in 2008 like Webber this year. And unlike Lewis, Rosberg and Grosjean, Kimi was a previous year's WDC, and the fact that TPs put Vettel higher than him says a lot--that they are quite capable of putting a driver from midfield even above a previous year's WDC. So "names" don't matter to them much.

On Vettel's win: team principals didn't put Maldonado as #5 after his win last year and didn't give him nearly half as many points as to the WDC, so it clearly doesn't matter that much to them. If they thought Hulk was potentially a star, they would have put him higher, as they did to Vettel.

 

And yet it's the same every year:

Hulk's position in team bosses vote:

2013 7th

2012 7th

2011 - (reserve driver)

2010 8th

Nothing has changed this year, contrary to the hype. Quite interesting. 

[Group B]

And that nobody from the top 4 signed him speaks equally clearly about the value they see in Hulk.

 

And even more clearly about the value they see in PdR, who you rate so highly. So if you're going to use this poll to bash NH then you also need to accept the TP's opinion that your poster boy doesn't even warrant a place on the grid.

[Cyanide]

Good to see a fair and critical opinion on Hülkenberg´s performance. It is now obvious why he had to stay with a midfield team, because I drew the biased conclusion that he is not a top quality driver, even though no team principal ever mentioned this. 

 

Fixed that for you. 

Edited by Cyanide, 12 December 2013 - 14:46.

[seahawk]

And even more clearly about the value they see in PdR, who you rate so highly. So if you're going to use this poll to bash NH then you also need to accept the TP's opinion that your poster boy doesn't even warrant a place on the grid.

 

Why should I rate diResta highly? The last season surely did indicate nothing that he is outstanding or should be even considered for a top seat. That however does not change the feeling that Hulk could be falling into the Alesi / Heidfeld trap. Could be good  enough to be noticed but for some reason not hired.

Edited by seahawk, 12 December 2013 - 16:11.

[Knot]

That however does not change the feeling that Hulk could be falling into the Alesi / Heidfeld trap. Could enough to be noticed but for some reason not hired.

 

...save for the fact that Ferrari wanted him until Kimi waddled along.

 

Hulk's problem is the lack of open seats at top teams.