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Mark Webber on the favourites for 2014 and who's the best driver he'd raced against


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#151 Group B

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 10:32

Webber: "Vettel is not the best he is average but the car made the difference" do you think he would say that ? he compared less to Vettel so if he was to put Vettel in the average category that would make him even less, a mediocre one, No, you can't take it as an objective opinion. BUT if Webber won with Sebastian then it would be much more valid because there would be no agenda behind whatsoever.

 

Equally, the fact that Webber is more likely to say he was beaten by a great driver is not proof that he wasn't. It would obviously be in Yohan Blake's interest to tell his grandchildren that the guy who beat him to gold in the 2012 Olympic 100m final was an amazing all time great sprinter, but his lack of objectivity wouldn't be proof that Usain Bolt isn't an all time great sprinter.



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#152 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 11:00

Oh no!

 

This perfectly reasonable forum has yet again turned into a slug out contest between Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and Raikonnen fans :-(



#153 Newbrray

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 11:07

Equally, the fact that Webber is more likely to say he was beaten by a great driver is not proof that he wasn't. It would obviously be in Yohan Blake's interest to tell his grandchildren that the guy who beat him to gold in the 2012 Olympic 100m final was an amazing all time great sprinter, but his lack of objectivity wouldn't be proof that Usain Bolt isn't an all time great sprinter.

 

Interesting point but it does fall into the category of comparing apples with oranges.

 

Blake, Bolt and any other sprinter are running based on their own God given talent and nothing else. the comparison can be made using the times they set on more or less equal tracks

 

Vettel comparison with other drivers is not the same as their is a mitigating factor (the car) which no one can adequately compute right now of how much a factor it added to the dominance shown by vettel.

 

A decent driver in a super machinery will win titles and this has happened before even if the driver is pitted against better or great drivers in lesser cars

 

A decent sprinter  will never win when pitted against a great sprinter as there is no other factor  (in this case car) to provide an added advantage to mitigate against his lesser talent and balance the equation

 

'hope am not rambling, honestly there's a point in there, I just hope its not been lost in translation



#154 Group B

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 11:44

Interesting point but it does fall into the category of comparing apples with oranges.

 

Blake, Bolt and any other sprinter are running based on their own God given talent and nothing else. the comparison can be made using the times they set on more or less equal tracks

 

Vettel comparison with other drivers is not the same as their is a mitigating factor (the car) which no one can adequately compute right now of how much a factor it added to the dominance shown by vettel.

 

A decent driver in a super machinery will win titles and this has happened before even if the driver is pitted against better or great drivers in lesser cars

 

A decent sprinter  will never win when pitted against a great sprinter as there is no other factor  (in this case car) to provide an added advantage to mitigate against his lesser talent and balance the equation

 

'hope am not rambling, honestly there's a point in there, I just hope its not been lost in translation

 

You're missing the point; I'm well aware of the machinery factor, but we're talking about two drivers in the same car here, in regard to Webber's rating of Vettel and an earlier post raising his partisan angle.

 

Vettel's 'greatness' per se is a separate (done top death) discussion, but the point here is that just because Webber has reason to be biased doesn't mean he must be wrong.



#155 tghik

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 15:38

You're missing the point; I'm well aware of the machinery factor, but we're talking about two drivers in the same car here, in regard to Webber's rating of Vettel and an earlier post raising his partisan angle.

 

Vettel's 'greatness' per se is a separate (done top death) discussion, but the point here is that just because Webber has reason to be biased doesn't mean he must be wrong.

Yep, it can be either and in this case we are talking about Webber's words in particular. So as you see it can go both ways and we simply can;t know, so what I am saying we can't take anything from his statement.



#156 Zava

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 15:51

Equally, the fact that Webber is more likely to say he was beaten by a great driver is not proof that he wasn't. It would obviously be in Yohan Blake's interest to tell his grandchildren that the guy who beat him to gold in the 2012 Olympic 100m final was an amazing all time great sprinter, but his lack of objectivity wouldn't be proof that Usain Bolt isn't an all time great sprinter.

good point, and has an obvious extension: the fact that Vettel won in the best car doesn't prove that he isn't great.



#157 sennafan24

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 16:00

good point, and has an obvious extension: the fact that Vettel won in the best car doesn't prove that he isn't great.

I think this is something people need to remember about F1 in general, not just about Vettel



#158 f1RacingForever

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 19:38

 Your statement:

 

 

I answered:

 

 

So you -- incorrectly I might add -- extrapolate:

 

 

I'll forgive the above straw man.  I countered your so-called "hype'' with four (4) consecutive WDCs.  And . . .  you're up! :D

:lol: I've got better thing to do than sit here and argue semantics with you. I merely stated i don't believe him to be as good as some suggest which is perfectly reasonable in the context of the thread and forum in general. Certainly not worthy of derision. I still haven't heard a reasonable explanation as to why you disagree. Laughing in derision believe it or not doesn't count. No matter. I couldn't care less. If you feel like you've won something, then enjoy the good feeling :wave:



#159 JSDSKI

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 19:44

Tell me which driver's attitude you like and I'll rip them apart before your eyes with hand selected events I will construe as showing their REAL persona - instead of the numerous activities, words and behavior they have shown over the year(s) I have watched them in the sport....

 

I understand. 

 

Are we only to admire Vettel in the manner in which you instruct us?   You seem irritable because some of us no longer enjoy Vettel's attitude while still respecting his talent and achievements.  All humans, even legendary drivers, have weaknesses and soft spots.  They all have one or two events or question marks in their lives or careers that leave open discussion, historical judgement, and differing opinion. Even Vettel will leave question marks.   


Edited by JSDSKI, 20 December 2013 - 19:45.


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#160 sennafan24

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 01:58

I like it: "Seb took the bull by the horns . . ."

Amazingly, that was unintentional, well done for noticing my man  :up:



#161 bourbon

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 06:29

I understand. 

 

Are we only to admire Vettel in the manner in which you instruct us?  

 

I didn't say that, but now that you mention it... :p

 

You seem irritable because some of us no longer enjoy Vettel's attitude while still respecting his talent and achievements.  All humans, even legendary drivers, have weaknesses and soft spots.  They all have one or two events or question marks in their lives or careers that leave open discussion, historical judgement, and differing opinion. Even Vettel will leave question marks. 

 

Come on man.  I don't care if you hate Vettel on and off the track and have no respect for him at all.  We are having a discussion.  Just because I disagree with your perspective doesn't mean I am irritable or trying to convince you to change your mind.  You go right on 'not enjoying'. 

 

I was explaining why I do enjoy Vettel's attitude.  I happen to believe that Mark was looking at it with a broad perspective - in fact, he had to be, because if he were only considering Turkey, Malaysia, Brazil and similar events, he would not have had positive things to say about his teammate.  So I think he was giving us an overview and that is why his attitude was positive. 


Edited by bourbon, 21 December 2013 - 06:32.


#162 apoka

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 11:27

We seem to have a revival of the old Vettel threads here. 

 

Regarding the quotes in the opening post: Personally, I find it interesting that there doesn't seem to be that much negative energy between Vettel & Webber. They will clearly never be best buddies, but now would be a time when Vettel or Webber could be very negative about their team mate, but not much seems to happen.

 



#163 GlenP

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 11:49

It would be mighty churlish of Mark to suggest Vettel was anything less than a brilliant driver - just because he doesn't like him, doesn't mean he is stupid enough to not see his quality as a driver. That kind of dumb "logic" is reserved for fan boys on forums!

 

Blatantly SV and FA are the pick of the field at the moment.



#164 rodlamas

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 13:53

Fernando hasn't won a WDC for 7 years despite having a clear chance in 2010 when he cried with Petrov and in 2012 when clearly lost the championship by being stupid with Raikkonen in Japan.

 

I rest my case.



#165 sennafan24

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 14:07

 in 2012 when clearly lost the championship by being stupid with Raikkonen in Japan.

 

 

I think its unfair to highlight that one mistake, you could turn it around and say "Alonso lost only because Romain drove like a maniac at the start at SPA"

 

All the top drivers will make at least one error in a racing year.



#166 as65p

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 14:11

Fernando hasn't won a WDC for 7 years despite having a clear chance in 2010 when he cried with Petrov and in 2012 when clearly lost the championship by being stupid with Raikkonen in Japan.

 

I rest my case.

 

That reads as if it's a bad thing Alonso kept the WDC open until the last race those two years, despite having an overall worse car than the champion. As if that were somehow worse than most other drivers not even being in contention for any titles.

 

An 'interesting' POV, I have to say. :drunk:



#167 prty

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 14:14

I rest my case.

 

It needs rest indeed, your case is pretty tired.



#168 sopa

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 14:15

Webber has been described as one of the few straight-shooters in F1. And in a discussion during the season we concluded he could possibly be the most charismatic driver of the current grid. I don't think he has an agenda or "lies" if he says Alonso and Vettel are the best. It is his personal judgement though - both from the cockpit and behind the scenes. And we can argue if his judgement is correct or can be improved upon.



#169 GlenP

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 15:47

It just isn't all that credible though, to question his judgement from the sidelines - I think he is pretty well qualified to judge!

 

As for Alonso no WDC for 7 years - so? OK, he is not immune from mistakes, but who is? Plus he absolutely maximises his situation nearly every time.



#170 MetallurgicalHedonist

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 02:54

I understand how people can get confused when a forum member puts words into my mouth (not you, of course).  If I said Tuesday follows Monday, would you accuse me of bad logic?  Because certain forumers believe Vettel just fell into the cockpit of race-winning car -- I find it necessary to point out that RBR did not win a Formula 1 race until after he was hired. 

 

Pure coincidence.

 

No really: Imagine "someone like" Alesi from 1991 onwards until 1997 with teammates à la Patrese (1991-1993) and Coulthard (1994-1997) driving for Williams-Renault. Realistically spoken with only little exaggeration, the outcome would've been:

 

- about 40-45 victories in only seven years,

- about 50-60 poles in only seven years,

- at least 4 championships

 

With all due respect: this outcome "only" by someone like Alesi. It would be as crazy to say that it was mainly Alesi who royally led Williams to success. No, it would only be the coincidence to be there just at the start of a very very successful era of a team where he happened to drive "only" against solid/okay-ish teammates (like Vettel had the luck to do so at RedBull from 2009 onwards).

 

The outcome would've been dramatically different, if he drove against such calibers like Senna, Mansell and Prost during that period instead of Patrese or Coulthard ("Webber-caliber" drivers). A loooot less poles, victories or championships would've been the result. Everybody knows this.

 

A looooot less poles, victories or championships would've been the result, if Vettel drove against such calibers like Alonso, Hamilton or Räikkönen as teammates. It's simple as that.

 

Imagine him as a rookie with a 26 year old Alonso as a teammate and a Räikkönen in his late 20's in another team but with a quite equal car... can you imagine Vettel presenting the same monster season for us f1-fans like Hamilton did in 2007?

 

In the only season where there were quite equal cars during a whole season, he managed not to sink dramatically against Button, Barrichello and Webber.

 

People will be so surprised, if he faces real competition (car or teammate-wise).



#171 bourbon

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 03:16

Pure coincidence.

 

[...]  A looooot less poles, victories or championships would've been the result, if Vettel drove against such calibers like Alonso, Hamilton or Räikkönen as teammates. It's simple as that.

 

Imagine him as a rookie with a 26 year old Alonso as a teammate and a Räikkönen in his late 20's in another team but with a quite equal car... can you imagine Vettel presenting the same monster season for us f1-fans like Hamilton did in 2007? [...]

 

And if his "bubble" had disappeared in 2011 and he had WDC Button as a teammate, would he have presented the same comparably horrific season for us f1-fans like Hamilton did in 2011?

 

Do you see why this type of reasoning fails?


Edited by bourbon, 22 December 2013 - 03:28.


#172 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 04:18

Yeah riiiiight!....Except Alonso he got a big fright from a rookie -  who trounced him! ..that's what 'appened in 2007! 

 

But do you really think that Alonso would have had so much trouble with drivers like Button or Rosberg?  Plus Alonso has finished ahead of Hamilton in lesser cars since his move to Ferrari. When you look at their driving performances since 2007 it is easy to see that 2007 was a year that was below average for Alonso.  



#173 Romulan

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 04:46

"But there will also still be decent driver input, especially from a brainpower perspective in terms of pacing and managing and all the technology the cars are going to have next year, which will help Sebastian. That's right up his alley. Perfect for him." - Mark Webber

 

BBC

 

I can imagine both Vettel and Alonso are busting their butts to get it right.  I certainly hope that RBR adapts to the new car/rules as soon as possible.  I find I'm excited and nervous at the same time.


Edited by Romulan, 22 December 2013 - 05:28.


#174 lbennie

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 00:50

Like I alluded to, I don't rate Webber in any of the recent seasons.  Bar Red Bull, who took him prior to a dominant period with Newey, no top team committed to him as a no1 driver.

Seb is merely a lot better than Webber is exactly the same way that Alonso is against Massa.

 

That to me leaves the Jury out on Seb and how he rates against Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi.  Kubica also has the jury out on Seb.

 

Which top team mates has Kimi beaten & alonso for that matter.

 

All this rubbish about how we need to see Vettel against a Top tier teammate to see how good he really is.

 

Yet Alonso & Raikkonen are seen as absolute top class without being under the same scrutiny.


Edited by lbennie, 23 December 2013 - 01:25.


#175 MetallurgicalHedonist

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 15:11

Which top team mates has Kimi beaten & alonso for that matter.

 

All this rubbish about how we need to see Vettel against a Top tier teammate to see how good he really is.

 

Yet Alonso & Raikkonen are seen as absolute top class without being under the same scrutiny.

From 2005 to 2006, he burried a driver who was then said to be the most underrated driver. And he burried him much deeper than Vettel did with Webber (may it qualifying- or race-wise).

 

In 2007, Alonso was on par with a then verrrrry soon-to-be champ (whether the latter was a rookie or not doesn't matter, as he was already that good, that he was about to become the youngest champ in the following year... still the best youngest champ, by the way, as he was also 23 years of age (as Vettel in 2010) but with not clearly the best car when he became WDC). So, that driver was clearly not a "normal" rookie when Alonso faced him.

 

From 2010 to 2013 he, at least, burried a 20-seconds champ with a car which was not good (2010) or, by far, not good enough for championships (2012) and he still missed them by a few iotas.

 

From 2014 onwards, he has to face one of the four absolute best drivers and, of course, another world champion.

 

Who knows, maybe from 2015 onwards, his list of champ teammates gets even longer, if he faces Button at McLaren-Honda.

 

It is everything else than rubbish "to demand" seasons where Vettel, even if the car is dominant, is "at least" paired with Alonso/Hamilton as teammates or where the car is at best on par with another team (something like further 2009s). Or where the car is third-best, at best, where we can see what he can do with those cars. I'm not talking about a win in a bad car, by the way. Those kind of things can happen: Fisichella/2003, Panis/1996 or almost happen (Hill/1997, Fisichella/2009, Perez/2012). I'm talking about sitting in mostly third-best-kinda material over a season and being runner-up at the championship or something like that.

 

Everybody is fed-up with these "cheap" championships.



#176 apoka

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 16:36

Everybody is fed-up with these "cheap" championships.

 

Welcome to the forum. In case you are new here, may I suggest you to read through one of the Vettel threads?



#177 joshb

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 16:40

I'm not fed up of these so called cheap championships... you get out what you put in



#178 sennafan24

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 16:44

I'm not fed up of these so called cheap championships... you get out what you put in

Neither am I as such, but your last sentence makes no sense from a fans perspective.



#179 sennafan24

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 16:48

From 2005 to 2006, he burried a driver who was then said to be the most underrated driver. And he burried him much deeper than Vettel did with Webber (may it qualifying- or race-wise).

 

In 2007, Alonso was on par with a then verrrrry soon-to-be champ (whether the latter was a rookie or not doesn't matter, as he was already that good, that he was about to become the youngest champ in the following year... still the best youngest champ, by the way, as he was also 23 years of age (as Vettel in 2010) but with not clearly the best car when he became WDC). So, that driver was clearly not a "normal" rookie when Alonso faced him.

 

From 2010 to 2013 he, at least, burried a 20-seconds champ with a car which was not good (2010) or, by far, not good enough for championships (2012) and he still missed them by a few iotas.

 

:up:

 

Agreed, the Alonso haters are really fickle, just as bad as the Vettel "its all the car" brigade.



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#180 lbennie

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 01:22

So being beaten by a rookie Hamilton and beating Massa means Alonso is indisputably amazing, but vettel is yet to prove himself.

 

Rightio  :lol:

 

(I am a huge Alonso fan by the way, as well as Vettel, I think they both stand alone as the top 2 drivers in the sport at the moment. I just hate these ridiculous arguments that drivers must prove themselves against other drivers to be considered good - especially when only applied to one driver.)


Edited by lbennie, 24 December 2013 - 01:33.


#181 MightyMoose

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 01:31

Seems this thread has wombled off course somewhat dramatically.

 

Let's not stress out over Christmas shall we?  Please stick closer to the topic and not resort to cheap re-hashes of tired old arguments.

 

Thank you.



#182 MetallurgicalHedonist

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 15:48

And if his "bubble" had disappeared in 2011 and he had WDC Button as a teammate, would he have presented the same comparably horrific season for us f1-fans like Hamilton did in 2011?

 

Do you see why this type of reasoning fails?

 

Vettel was also about to have his difficulties as soon as the car wasn't perfect anymore. After the first three race weekends 2012, it was 3:0 in qualifying in favour of Webber. And Webber was infront of Vettel in the WDC table. Then the car was corrected in favour of Vettel, of course. Sorry for the clumsy expression, by the way. Not a native English speaker here.

 

With the same respect:

 

I would never claim any individual for RBR's success.  For the last four years, the entire Red Bull organization has out-performed every other team on the grid.

 

Vettel scored RBR's first Formula 1 win.  I never said he was responsible for the team's success.

 

And yet some people begin to mention his name in the same sentence as Senna ("qualifying god" and what not) or in the same sentence as Prost (because he also is quadruple WDC). That's ridiculous. People may know that it is mainly the organization (RedBull... I would rather say Newey) that "has out-performed every other team on the grid", but people begin to say that it was mainly Vettel and that's shyte.

 

Thanks to the driver policy of RedBull (and that's where Vettel's main amount of luck lies), the team doesn't change the WDC constantly year in year out (as Williams-Renault did in the 90's). That's the reason why no one says, "Mansell dominated or Prost dominated or Hill dominated or Villeneuve dominated"... they tend to say, "Williams-Renault dominated".

 

But in this case (RedBull-Vettel case), everything begins now to be associated with Vettel, because he was the only one who could do "carpe diem" year in year out (with only someone like Webber in the other car). The same with Ferrari's high flying years: people tend to say that Schumacher dominated rather than Ferrari, because in that case as it is now with RedBull, the "main driver" wasn't changed permanently.

 

Or to go back to the Prost-Vettel comparison: let's look at Prost's 84-89 period. Roundabout the same "material situation" for him as 09-13 with RedBull and Vettel. Yes, also for most of the time perfect, nearly perfect or at least great cars. But Prost didn't compete in this period entirely against let's say Alboreto or Patrese or drivers in that vain as teammates. Nope, he competed against... well everybody knows against. who... Not in the slightest way is Vettel comparable with those real giants (Senna, Prost).



#183 sennafan24

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 16:39

So being beaten by a rookie Hamilton and beating Massa means Alonso is indisputably amazing, but vettel is yet to prove himself.

The poster who responded gave more examples than that though, I do not see it the way of "Seb has to prove himself" but others do and feel other drivers have achieved that, its not a clear double standard as you make out.

 

Anyway, both have stern teammate test in my opinion in 2014, so we will find out a lot more about both of Webber's choices then, we may even find out if Webber is right or not in who he considers the 2 best on the grid.

 

Webber's opinion whilst valid, is not fool proof, he has not being teammates will all 3/4 top drivers on the grid, and there could be bias to his opinion as he is chums with Alonso, and if he says Vettel is sub-par, what does it say about him? 



#184 bourbon

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 17:29

Vettel was also about to have his difficulties as soon as the car wasn't perfect anymore. After the first three race weekends 2012, it was 3:0 in qualifying in favour of Webber. And Webber was infront of Vettel in the WDC table. Then the car was corrected in favour of Vettel, of course. Sorry for the clumsy expression, by the way. Not a native English speaker here.

 

Well that doesn't address the point I raised, but yes, Vettel had issues at the start of 2012 - and his teammate managed the situation better; similar to the end of 2012 when Alonso had issues and his teammate managed the situation better.  That happens when the driver does not feel in balance with the car for whatever reason.

 

However, my point was that these drivers all have their own career trajectories.  We cannot say that Senna and Schumacher or Fangio and Alonso or Hamilton and Clark had the same career path.  Each driver has to forge his own way.  So for me to demand that Hamilton meet Schumi's pole record, or Alonso meet Vettel's GP wins in a row record, or Vettel switch teammates with the frequency of Hamilton, or Alonso have teammates with the toughness that Prost faced - in order to "prove" themselves is ridiculous.  Those kind of demands are far-fetched because they are accompanied by the irrational assumption that these drivers will all have (or have had) the opportunity to accomplish these things along their own personal career path - which is of course not even remotely possible.

 

Teams are not concerned with superiority disputes among drivers or their fans.  They are in it for the win with the men+machines at their disposal.  So they won't cater to these demands in any case.

 

In short, F1 is a competitive sport to be enjoyed for what it is - like all sports - and I think Mark Webber is taking a very broad view of it now that he has retired from it.  He understands opportunity and lack thereof - and knows what it costs to earn a WDC/WCC championship, independent of how easy it may look from the outside.  That is what he is celebrating with his speech, imo.



#185 MightyMoose

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 22:01

Seems this thread has wombled off course somewhat dramatically.

 

Let's not stress out over Christmas shall we?  Please stick closer to the topic and not resort to cheap re-hashes of tired old arguments.

 

Thank you.

 

Tired OLD arguments.

 

Repeated for the proper effect to be taken on board & understood this time.

 

There is no excuse for ignoring a MOD instruction, and if anyone repeats it, this thread will be wrapped up for next Christmas.



#186 apoka

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 22:13

Vettel was also about to have his difficulties as soon as the car wasn't perfect anymore. After the first three race weekends 2012, it was 3:0 in qualifying in favour of Webber. And Webber was infront of Vettel in the WDC table. Then the car was corrected in favour of Vettel, of course. Sorry for the clumsy expression, by the way. Not a native English speaker here.

 

That are just 3 qualies and 3 races in which he didn't get points in one of those due to an incident. 2012 he had qualy issues, but no problems in race pace.

 

(Webber didn't do a Prost/Senna comparison, but only against drivers he raced, so I don't reply to the rest of the post as we got an offtopic warning already.)



#187 vmax1

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 15:47

Mark Webber just trying to salvage some reputation. He never drove against Alonso in the same car so he really has no clue. About time he was finally replaced after so many years of under performance, its just a pity Redbull deliberately chose to hire another number 2 instead of one of the top drivers who applied for the seat.



#188 vmax1

vmax1
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  • Joined: December 13

Posted 27 December 2013 - 16:03

Does your logic only apply to Seb I wonder?

 

Is the jury not "still out" on those other drivers you metnioned?

 

They have all had better team mates than Mark Webber. You cant judge a driver against 1 team mate only. Webber scraped his way into F1 and if he didn't luck into Redbull at the right time would have been  a retired forgotten midfielder years ago.